Board 8 > I finally got around to playing Undertale spoilers

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andylt 07/05/22 4:15:53 PM #1:	Favourite character? Frisk Toriel Sans Papyrus Undyne Alphys Mettaton Asgore Asriel Napstablook Favourite character? - Results (69 votes) Frisk 0% (0 votes) 0 Toriel 11.59% (8 votes) 8 Sans 24.64% (17 votes) 17 Papyrus 21.74% (15 votes) 15 Undyne 5.8% (4 votes) 4 Alphys 4.35% (3 votes) 3 Mettaton 11.59% (8 votes) 8 Asgore 2.9% (2 votes) 2 Asriel 2.9% (2 votes) 2 Napstablook 14.49% (10 votes) 10 ...and wouldn't you know, it's a pretty dang good game! I was initially put off by the graphics back when it first came out (for shame!), but obviously I've heard so much positive feedback about the game since then that I knew I'd give it a go eventually. I knew nothing about this going in other than a couple of names and memes. I didn't even know it had a bullet hell component! The humour is great, the writing is really solid (multiple twists caught me by surprise), it plays very nicely with tropes of the genre (and gaming as a whole), and the battles are fun. For a while I thought it was a very neat game but nothing groundbreaking, and figured it got such a buzz because it managed to break out of the typical indie base to reach a wider audience that hadn't been exposed to subversive narratives like this before in games. But then the true ending stuff kicked in and, yep, it got me. What a lovely wholesome experience! I know everybody has played and discussed this game to death by now but I wanted to show my appreciation. I have no plans to go back and play a route where I kill things, maybe I'm missing out but I just don't feel any urge to do that shrug. Tiny unfair grievance: I didn't even get to hear Megalovania! That's the Undertale song! I imagine it plays in the scene with Sans near the end if you killed some enemies, but I assume most people will have played it kill-less like me so it's funny that it became huge anyway lol. The soundtrack is really good though, as I expected. Pretty much all the boss fights are bangers. The characters are also great. My fav is either Papyrus (innocent angel), Sans (I thought he would be a twist villain because of Megalovania, but he was much cooler than that), or Toriel (the real MVP). But man, even the battle monsters and the tiniest NPCs are memorable. I love that you can go back and talk to everyone in the ending and they pretty much all have new things to say, I wish all games would do this! I do think Alphys and Asgore get off awfully lightly with the stuff they're responsible for >_> But whatever. Anyway, what does the board think? And does Deltarune live up to this? --- Very slowly becoming a Final Fantasy aficionado. <cite>andylt posted [p:966359582] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote> Favourite character? Frisk Toriel Sans Papyrus Undyne Alphys Mettaton Asgore Asriel Napstablook Vote View Results Favourite character? - Results (69 votes) Frisk 0% (0 votes) 0 Toriel 11.59% (8 votes) 8 Sans 24.64% (17 votes) 17 Papyrus 21.74% (15 votes) 15 Undyne 5.8% (4 votes) 4 Alphys 4.35% (3 votes) 3 Mettaton 11.59% (8 votes) 8 Asgore 2.9% (2 votes) 2 Asriel 2.9% (2 votes) 2 Napstablook 14.49% (10 votes) 10 Show Voting Form function poll_vote() { var vote_option = $("input[name='poll_vote']:checked").val(); if(!vote_option) return; $.ajax({ type: 'POST', url: '/ajax/forum_poll_vote', data: { option: vote_option, board: '8', topic: '80083693', message: '0', key: '3f535f07' }, success: function(response) { if(response.error) { alert(response.error); } else { $("#poll_vote").hide(); $("#poll_results").html(response.html).show(); } } }); } function view_results_legacy() { $("#poll_vote").hide(); $("#poll_results").show(); } function hide_results_legacy() { $("#poll_results").hide(); $("#poll_vote").show(); } ...and wouldn't you know, it's a pretty dang good game! I was initially put off by the graphics back when it first came out (for shame!), but obviously I've heard so much positive feedback about the game since then that I knew I'd give it a go eventually. I knew nothing about this going in other than a couple of names and memes. I didn't even know it had a bullet hell component! The humour is great, the writing is really solid (multiple twists caught me by surprise), it plays very nicely with tropes of the genre (and gaming as a whole), and the battles are fun. For a while I thought it was a very neat game but nothing groundbreaking, and figured it got such a buzz because it managed to break out of the typical indie base to reach a wider audience that hadn't been exposed to subversive narratives like this before in games. But then the true ending stuff kicked in and, yep, it got me. What a lovely wholesome experience! I know everybody has played and discussed this game to death by now but I wanted to show my appreciation. I have no plans to go back and play a route where I kill things, maybe I'm missing out but I just don't feel any urge to do that shrug. Tiny unfair grievance: I didn't even get to hear Megalovania! That's the Undertale song! I imagine it plays in the scene with Sans near the end if you killed some enemies, but I assume most people will have played it kill-less like me so it's funny that it became huge anyway lol. The soundtrack is really good though, as I expected. Pretty much all the boss fights are bangers. The characters are also great. My fav is either Papyrus (innocent angel), Sans (I thought he would be a twist villain because of Megalovania, but he was much cooler than that), or Toriel (the real MVP). But man, even the battle monsters and the tiniest NPCs are memorable. I love that you can go back and talk to everyone in the ending and they pretty much all have new things to say, I wish all games would do this! I do think Alphys and Asgore get off awfully lightly with the stuff they're responsible for >_> But whatever. Anyway, what does the board think? And does Deltarune live up to this? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NFUN 07/05/22 4:33:16 PM #2:	do genocide --- Kneel... or you will be knelt <cite>NFUN posted [p:966360009] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>do genocide </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Paratroopa1 07/05/22 4:42:10 PM #3:	Glad you enjoyed it! I loved it when I played it back in 2015 (I wasn't one of its earliest adopters, but I did play it before it seriously exploded in popularity - like, before the games contest) and I've always been curious if it was just really radical and new at the time and if it's more quaint now or what. But yeah I do think it's a really fantastic game. When you have style and heart like Undertale does it ages pretty well. I love the characters and the writing, the soundtrack is obviously great, and the gameplay is fairly simple but doesn't overstay its welcome over the runtime. Deltarune is a good followup, but it's only the first two chapters so far (which are free) so it's hard to know how it compares to Undertale since it's not finished. Those two chapters by themselves probably have about as much content as Undertale does though, if not more, so they're pretty appreciable experiences by themselves. Some things that Deltarune does are improved in ways that make it hard to go back to Undertale, but at the same time it also sometimes has a hard time capturing the same lightning in a bottle that Undertale has, as ANY followup to a lightning-in-a-bottle game is going to have. It's about as good as he could have done, considering. So yeah I would recommend Deltarune for sure. <cite>Paratroopa1 posted [p:966360192] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>Glad you enjoyed it! I loved it when I played it back in 2015 (I wasn't one of its earliest adopters, but I did play it before it seriously exploded in popularity - like, before the games contest) and I've always been curious if it was just really radical and new at the time and if it's more quaint now or what. But yeah I do think it's a really fantastic game. When you have style and heart like Undertale does it ages pretty well. I love the characters and the writing, the soundtrack is obviously great, and the gameplay is fairly simple but doesn't overstay its welcome over the runtime. Deltarune is a good followup, but it's only the first two chapters so far (which are free) so it's hard to know how it compares to Undertale since it's not finished. Those two chapters by themselves probably have about as much content as Undertale does though, if not more, so they're pretty appreciable experiences by themselves. Some things that Deltarune does are improved in ways that make it hard to go back to Undertale, but at the same time it also sometimes has a hard time capturing the same lightning in a bottle that Undertale has, as ANY followup to a lightning-in-a-bottle game is going to have. It's about as good as he could have done, considering. So yeah I would recommend Deltarune for sure. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Aecioo 07/05/22 4:52:58 PM #4:	NFUN posted... do genocide --- http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcb35gGx0t1qailr4o1_500.gif http://www.megavideo.com/?v=57N0YAEJ <cite>Aecioo posted [p:966360440] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>NFUN posted... </cite> <quote>do genocide</quote> </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
AriaOfBolo 07/05/22 4:53:05 PM #5:	I suspect I will prefer Deltarune by the time it's done; I might already --- New name, new gender, same great Bolo flavor! Now with no spaces! <cite>AriaOfBolo posted [p:966360441] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>I suspect I will prefer Deltarune by the time it's done; I might already </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
KamikazePotato 07/05/22 4:55:21 PM #6:	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuL3OvQwwvQ I recommend watching this if you don't do Genocide (which is a valid choice). --- It's Reyn Time. <cite>KamikazePotato posted [p:966360481] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuL3OvQwwvQ I recommend watching this if you don't do Genocide (which is a valid choice). </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MrSmartGuy 07/05/22 5:04:24 PM #7:	Sports chat in the b8 discord all decided to do a project where we all ranked our top 100 games of all-time. We finished long ago, except for a few very late stragglers, so the top 10's of everyone has survived for a long time, which allows me to direct you to when I ranked this game at #9! https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/79323228/951264528 You covered a lot of why I love this game, the main points being the music and the depth of all the characters, but I had a bit more to say, and it'd be cool to get some more views. --- Xbox GT/PSN name/Nintendo ID: TatteredUniform http://www.scuffletown.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/tRBE1.gif <cite>MrSmartGuy posted [p:966360718] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>Sports chat in the b8 discord all decided to do a project where we all ranked our top 100 games of all-time. We finished long ago, except for a few very late stragglers, so the top 10's of everyone has survived for a long time, which allows me to direct you to when I ranked this game at #9! https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/79323228/951264528 You covered a lot of why I love this game, the main points being the music and the depth of all the characters, but I had a bit more to say, and it'd be cool to get some more views. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 07/05/22 5:05:07 PM #8:	Glad to see it lived up to the hype for you! It's a hard thing to manage. I will say that I think the Genocide/No Mercy route is pretty integral to what the game is doing, though you don't necessarily have to do it yourself and you can get the experience from watching an LP or overview video. I'd only recommend playing it if you really enjoy the combat and are up for some rough fights. That said, not engaging with it at all is still a valid choice...I guess I'm just saying it's worth thinking about and coming to your own conclusion! Deltarune is definitely worth playing with just the two episodes that are out so far, especially if you are hungry for more game in a similar style. That said it's hard to judge if it "lives up" to the same standard when the game is incomplete, but I think it's shaping up to be a worthwhile successor. It is already showing signs of being weirder than Undertale, which doesn't say anything about quality but gives me some high hopes for it. --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:966360735] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>Glad to see it lived up to the hype for you! It's a hard thing to manage. I will say that I think the Genocide/No Mercy route is pretty integral to what the game is doing, though you don't necessarily have to do it yourself and you can get the experience from watching an LP or overview video. I'd only recommend playing it if you really enjoy the combat and are up for some rough fights. That said, not engaging with it at all is still a valid choice...I guess I'm just saying it's worth thinking about and coming to your own conclusion! Deltarune is definitely worth playing with just the two episodes that are out so far, especially if you are hungry for more game in a similar style. That said it's hard to judge if it "lives up" to the same standard when the game is incomplete, but I think it's shaping up to be a worthwhile successor. It is already showing signs of being weirder than Undertale, which doesn't say anything about quality but gives me some high hopes for it. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Sheep007 07/05/22 5:07:33 PM #9:	I think actually playing Genocide is not fun, but it's worth watching some of the changes, yeah. Deltarune is great and I'd recommend playing it, at least when it's fully released. It's just a better game fundamentally, without the glaring flaws of Undertale like its pacing, combat, and the physically painful ending sequence. That said, I don't think the character designs, basic story beats, or music quite hit such high points as Undertale (even though they're still great in their own right). Chapter 2 is definitely an excellent game, while Chapter 1 is just pretty good. --- Perhaps the golden rock was inside us all along. <cite>Sheep007 posted [p:966360800] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>I think actually playing Genocide is not fun, but it's worth watching some of the changes, yeah. Deltarune is great and I'd recommend playing it, at least when it's fully released. It's just a better game fundamentally, without the glaring flaws of Undertale like its pacing, combat, and the physically painful ending sequence. That said, I don't think the character designs, basic story beats, or music quite hit such high points as Undertale (even though they're still great in their own right). Chapter 2 is definitely an excellent game, while Chapter 1 is just pretty good. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UshiromiyaEva 07/05/22 5:34:35 PM #10:	I think making the decision not to do the No Mercy root is equally as critical a decision to make as actually experiencing it. Like...letting thing be is the choice you have to make. --- https://twitter.com/OocWTC/status/1348011667976699904?s=19 <cite>UshiromiyaEva posted [p:966361373] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>I think making the decision not to do the No Mercy root is equally as critical a decision to make as actually experiencing it. Like...letting thing be is the choice you have to make. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
KamikazePotato 07/05/22 5:37:42 PM #11:	I was very happy with my choice to ~~not play Genocide, watch the video, get called the fuck out by Flowey while watching the video, then hack the game so I could just fight Undyne and Sans because I wanted the adrenaline rush.~~ --- It's Reyn Time. <cite>KamikazePotato posted [p:966361432] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>I was very happy with my choice to not play Genocide, watch the video, get called the fuck out by Flowey while watching the video, then hack the game so I could just fight Undyne and Sans because I wanted the adrenaline rush. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
andylt 07/05/22 5:50:11 PM #12:	Thanks for the comments! Ah I didn't realise Deltarune is still unfinished. How many chapters are there supposed to be in total? Undertale is definitely a game that needs to be played as a whole to fully appreciate it, so I might hold off on Delta for now... HeroDelTiempo17 posted... I will say that I think the Genocide/No Mercy route is pretty integral to what the game is doing, though you don't necessarily have to do it yourself and you can get the experience from watching an LP or overview video. I'd only recommend playing it if you really enjoy the combat and are up for some rough fights. That said, not engaging with it at all is still a valid choice...I guess I'm just saying it's worth thinking about and coming to your own conclusion! I'm surprised at all the responses saying I should do No Mercy, but this is the most convincing argument. I tend not to enjoy doing the 'evil' morality choices in games even on a second runthrough, I just don't get much pleasure out of them, and with this game in particular I know it would love to twist the knife. But I'm intrigued by you calling it integral to the experience, they must do something pretty fascinating with it... And yeah, thinking about it I doubt this game would play things straightforward like that. I'll think about it some more, and hold off on watching the video KP linked until I come to a decision. MrSmartGuy posted... https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/79323228/951264528 Hey I remember these lists, I've been linked them before a few times (I think Elite Beat Agents was high up on yours maybe?). Tagging this for now, I'll read it properly when I get the chance! Sidenote: I checked the VGMC records and Undertale has had twelve tracks in that contest, but one of my favs missed out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xflkF-sqNaM Underrated, I say! --- Very slowly becoming a Final Fantasy aficionado. <cite>andylt posted [p:966361729] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>Thanks for the comments! Ah I didn't realise Deltarune is still unfinished. How many chapters are there supposed to be in total? Undertale is definitely a game that needs to be played as a whole to fully appreciate it, so I might hold off on Delta for now... HeroDelTiempo17 posted... </cite> <quote>I will say that I think the Genocide/No Mercy route is pretty integral to what the game is doing, though you don't necessarily have to do it yourself and you can get the experience from watching an LP or overview video. I'd only recommend playing it if you really enjoy the combat and are up for some rough fights. That said, not engaging with it at all is still a valid choice...I guess I'm just saying it's worth thinking about and coming to your own conclusion!</quote>I'm surprised at all the responses saying I should do No Mercy, but this is the most convincing argument. I tend not to enjoy doing the 'evil' morality choices in games even on a second runthrough, I just don't get much pleasure out of them, and with this game in particular I know it would love to twist the knife. But I'm intrigued by you calling it integral to the experience, they must do something pretty fascinating with it... And yeah, thinking about it I doubt this game would play things straightforward like that. I'll think about it some more, and hold off on watching the video KP linked until I come to a decision. MrSmartGuy posted... </cite> <quote>https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/79323228/951264528</quote>Hey I remember these lists, I've been linked them before a few times (I think Elite Beat Agents was high up on yours maybe?). Tagging this for now, I'll read it properly when I get the chance! Sidenote: I checked the VGMC records and Undertale has had twelve tracks in that contest, but one of my favs missed out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xflkF-sqNaM Underrated, I say! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 07/05/22 6:00:54 PM #13:	andylt posted... Ah I didn't realise Deltarune is still unfinished. How many chapters are there supposed to be in total? Undertale is definitely a game that needs to be played as a whole to fully appreciate it, so I might hold off on Delta for now... 7 chapters according to the chapter select screen and if nothing changes. Last I heard, Toby plans on releasing 3-5 for purchase as a single drop (1&2 are currently free), then finish the game later. That might be a good time to jump in, if you want to wait. It's taking years between releases and Ch 2 just came out so who knows how long it will be. --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:966361964] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>andylt posted... </cite> <quote>Ah I didn't realise Deltarune is still unfinished. How many chapters are there supposed to be in total? Undertale is definitely a game that needs to be played as a whole to fully appreciate it, so I might hold off on Delta for now...</quote> 7 chapters according to the chapter select screen and if nothing changes. Last I heard, Toby plans on releasing 3-5 for purchase as a single drop (1&2 are currently free), then finish the game later. That might be a good time to jump in, if you want to wait. It's taking years between releases and Ch 2 just came out so who knows how long it will be. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
tcaz2 07/05/22 6:32:47 PM #14:	TBF he also said he plans on Ch2 being the longest of them so hopefully the rest won't take as long. Who knows if that will actually end up being the case. <cite>tcaz2 posted [p:966362671] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>TBF he also said he plans on Ch2 being the longest of them so hopefully the rest won't take as long. Who knows if that will actually end up being the case. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Johnbobb 07/05/22 6:39:06 PM #15:	NFUN posted... do genocide remember when we had bumping bots on B8 that would post random things from other topics into completely unrelated topics? I miss those --- Khal Kirby, warlord of the Super Star Khalasar PSN/Steam: CheddarBBQ https://goo.gl/Diw2hs <cite>Johnbobb posted [p:966362807] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>NFUN posted... </cite> <quote>do genocide</quote>remember when we had bumping bots on B8 that would post random things from other topics into completely unrelated topics? I miss those </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Paratroopa1 07/05/22 6:40:34 PM #16:	tcaz2 posted... TBF he also said he plans on Ch2 being the longest of them so hopefully the rest won't take as long. Who knows if that will actually end up being the case. I'm a little skeptical that this will be true just because I feel like Toby is more likely to get in over his head and take too long than he is to cut corners and shorten the length of something - it's possible that he really doesn't intend for those chapters to have as much material but I detected a hint of hopefulness that it wouldn't take him until 2027 to finish this game. On the other hand, I don't want to promise myself in my own mind the possibility of "Undertale but like five times as long" so I'm not gonna get my hopes up or have any expectations about the game's length. If chapter 2 is nearly the halfway point then that's fine! <cite>Paratroopa1 posted [p:966362842] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>tcaz2 posted... </cite> <quote>TBF he also said he plans on Ch2 being the longest of them so hopefully the rest won't take as long. Who knows if that will actually end up being the case.</quote>I'm a little skeptical that this will be true just because I feel like Toby is more likely to get in over his head and take too long than he is to cut corners and shorten the length of something - it's possible that he really doesn't intend for those chapters to have as much material but I detected a hint of hopefulness that it wouldn't take him until 2027 to finish this game. On the other hand, I don't want to promise myself in my own mind the possibility of "Undertale but like five times as long" so I'm not gonna get my hopes up or have any expectations about the game's length. If chapter 2 is nearly the halfway point then that's fine! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NFUN 07/05/22 6:46:50 PM #17:	Johnbobb posted... remember when we had bumping bots on B8 that would post random things from other topics into completely unrelated topics? I miss those @GTN @GuessHerUsrName --- Kneel... or you will be knelt <cite>NFUN posted [p:966362990] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>Johnbobb posted... </cite> <quote>remember when we had bumping bots on B8 that would post random things from other topics into completely unrelated topics? I miss those</quote>@GTN @GuessHerUsrName </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TomNook 07/05/22 10:15:40 PM #18:	andylt posted... My fav is either Papyrus (innocent angel) Papyrus on Genocide is the most heartbreaking moment in all of gaming. --- Bells, bells, bells! <cite>TomNook posted [p:966367693] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>andylt posted... </cite> <quote>My fav is either Papyrus (innocent angel)</quote>Papyrus on Genocide is the most heartbreaking moment in all of gaming. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
agesboy 07/05/22 10:28:05 PM #19:	KamikazePotato posted... I was very happy with my choice to ~~not play Genocide, watch the video, get called the fuck out by Flowey while watching the video, then hack the game so I could just fight Undyne and Sans because I wanted the adrenaline rush.~~ meanwhile, i was happy with my choice to ~~give up on the sans fight, which is the entire thing he's trying to get you to do. sans basically won!~~ --- http://i.imgur.com/LabbRyN.jpg raytan and Kana are on opposite ends of the Awesome Spectrum. <cite>agesboy posted [p:966367931] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>KamikazePotato posted... </cite> <quote>I was very happy with my choice to not play Genocide, watch the video, get called the fuck out by Flowey while watching the video, then hack the game so I could just fight Undyne and Sans because I wanted the adrenaline rush.</quote>meanwhile, i was happy with my choice to give up on the sans fight, which is the entire thing he's trying to get you to do. sans basically won! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DeepsPraw 07/05/22 10:48:03 PM #20:	play genocide. its intentionally tedious at times, but the payoff is worth it --- pepsi for tv-game <cite>DeepsPraw posted [p:966368360] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>play genocide. its intentionally tedious at times, but the payoff is worth it </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MZero 07/05/22 11:29:40 PM #22:	andylt posted... ...and wouldn't you know, it's a pretty dang good game! I thought i knew you man --- MZero, to the extreme https://www.twitch.tv/kabazame <cite>MZero posted [p:966369099] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>andylt posted... </cite> <quote>...and wouldn't you know, it's a pretty dang good game!</quote> I thought i knew you man </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
colliding 07/05/22 11:37:15 PM #23:	I will never play the genocide route --- while you slept, the world changed <cite>colliding posted [p:966369238] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>I will never play the genocide route </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
agesboy 07/05/22 11:49:38 PM #24:	at least youtube it, undyne's fight there is my favorite undertale sequence --- http://i.imgur.com/LabbRyN.jpg raytan and Kana are on opposite ends of the Awesome Spectrum. <cite>agesboy posted [p:966369426] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>at least youtube it, undyne's fight there is my favorite undertale sequence </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
andylt 07/06/22 2:04:54 PM #25:	Oh yikes, seven chapters. Yeah I may hold off on Delta for now! As for No Mercy, I'm still not sure. I want to experience more Undertale and see what twists they have in store, but I really have no desire to slice my way through all these characters (and likely get chastised for it ingame). I mean I don't even have the desire to go through the date scenes again and pick the mean options >_> I'll at least watch the new/different boss fights if nothing else. DragonGargoyle posted... But that's part of the reason he's my favorite character in the game, and there's also a lot of nice thing things about him, so examining my feelings about him was extremely interesting and formative for me. (I also probably have bias for beeg monster dudes) I can understand any character being someone's fav, they're all interesting and have their relatable flaws and quirks! I like that they didn't have Toriel forgive Asgore, it gives both of them more depth. And thinking about it Asgore probably doesn't get much time for closure because his arc concludes at the same time the game does. MZero posted... I thought i knew you man It's the FFIX-liking part of my brain, I guess! MrSmartGuy posted... https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/79323228/951264528 Read this, thanks for linking it. You nailed it with all the tiny unnecessary details that were added, every little thing you can think of to do results in an amusing outcome. I'm sure I've missed so many little things here and there even though I tried to be thorough, I wonder how many permutations there actually are. I said it at the start but I'm particularly thrilled that they added new dialogue for all the minor NPCs at the ending. Also your character ranking is solid (but missing Mettaton and the wonderful Napstablook) Who is everybody's favourite random monster encounter? I like them all, from Woshua to Tsunderplane! --- Very slowly becoming a Final Fantasy aficionado. <cite>andylt posted [p:966381451] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>Oh yikes, seven chapters. Yeah I may hold off on Delta for now! As for No Mercy, I'm still not sure. I want to experience more Undertale and see what twists they have in store, but I really have no desire to slice my way through all these characters (and likely get chastised for it ingame). I mean I don't even have the desire to go through the date scenes again and pick the mean options >_> I'll at least watch the new/different boss fights if nothing else. DragonGargoyle posted... </cite> <quote>But that's part of the reason he's my favorite character in the game, and there's also a lot of nice thing things about him, so examining my feelings about him was extremely interesting and formative for me. (I also probably have bias for beeg monster dudes)</quote>I can understand any character being someone's fav, they're all interesting and have their relatable flaws and quirks! I like that they didn't have Toriel forgive Asgore, it gives both of them more depth. And thinking about it Asgore probably doesn't get much time for closure because his arc concludes at the same time the game does. MZero posted... </cite> <quote>I thought i knew you man</quote>It's the FFIX-liking part of my brain, I guess! MrSmartGuy posted... </cite> <quote>https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/79323228/951264528</quote>Read this, thanks for linking it. You nailed it with all the tiny unnecessary details that were added, every little thing you can think of to do results in an amusing outcome. I'm sure I've missed so many little things here and there even though I tried to be thorough, I wonder how many permutations there actually are. I said it at the start but I'm particularly thrilled that they added new dialogue for all the minor NPCs at the ending. Also your character ranking is solid (but missing Mettaton and the wonderful Napstablook) Who is everybody's favourite random monster encounter? I like them all, from Woshua to Tsunderplane! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Paratroopa1 07/06/22 2:09:21 PM #26:	andylt posted... You nailed it with all the tiny unnecessary details that were added, every little thing you can think of to do results in an amusing outcome. This is like my favorite thing that some games do. Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario were great early examples of this, but Undertale really took this concept and just hit it out of the park. I love when games are crammed with weird, fun details and responses to bizarre choices. <cite>Paratroopa1 posted [p:966381548] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>andylt posted... </cite> <quote>You nailed it with all the tiny unnecessary details that were added, every little thing you can think of to do results in an amusing outcome.</quote>This is like my favorite thing that some games do. Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario were great early examples of this, but Undertale really took this concept and just hit it out of the park. I love when games are crammed with weird, fun details and responses to bizarre choices. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
andylt 07/13/22 11:31:40 AM #27:	OK I watched the genocide video! Glad I've seen it, and I'm content that I didn't play it myself (even with the game calling me out on doing that). Best parts: Undyne really feeling like the hero of the underground, Asriel's speech in New Home describing how he got to this point, and of course the Sans fight. I don't think I could have beaten him myself, and even if I could, one of his speeches would have probably gotten me to give up. Really cool how they mess with the established battle system there and how Sans is very aware of the game mechanics. The ending with 'Hitler' is a bit silly, I guess we really are supposed to think of that human as pure evil. Still, glad I watched it. geeettttttt dunked on!!! --- Very slowly becoming a Final Fantasy aficionado. <cite>andylt posted [p:966542693] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>OK I watched the genocide video! Glad I've seen it, and I'm content that I didn't play it myself (even with the game calling me out on doing that). Best parts: Undyne really feeling like the hero of the underground, Asriel's speech in New Home describing how he got to this point, and of course the Sans fight. I don't think I could have beaten him myself, and even if I could, one of his speeches would have probably gotten me to give up. Really cool how they mess with the established battle system there and how Sans is very aware of the game mechanics. The ending with 'Hitler' is a bit silly, I guess we really are supposed to think of that human as pure evil. Still, glad I watched it. geeettttttt dunked on!!! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WazzupGenius00 07/13/22 11:59:34 AM #28:	..."Hitler?" did someone name their character that for their youtube video --- http://i.imgur.com/k0v0z3q.gif <cite>WazzupGenius00 posted [p:966543325] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>..."Hitler?" did someone name their character that for their youtube video </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
andylt 07/13/22 1:05:09 PM #29:	WazzupGenius00 posted... ..."Hitler?" did someone name their character that for their youtube video yes, fitting enough. Thanks for the practice Sans fight, that was pretty fun and I can now be certain that I am not good enough at games to beat this (or at least not without taking a very very long time and getting very frustrated)! --- Very slowly becoming a Final Fantasy aficionado. <cite>andylt posted [p:966544700] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>WazzupGenius00 posted... </cite> <quote>..."Hitler?" did someone name their character that for their youtube video</quote>yes, fitting enough. Thanks for the practice Sans fight, that was pretty fun and I can now be certain that I am not good enough at games to beat this (or at least not without taking a very very long time and getting very frustrated)! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
andylt 07/13/22 5:12:03 PM #30:	OK I watched the bonus bits too. Screw Megalovania, the plant judging your sins is now my fav part of the Genocide route. --- Very slowly becoming a Final Fantasy aficionado. <cite>andylt posted [p:966550343] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>OK I watched the bonus bits too. Screw Megalovania, the plant judging your sins is now my fav part of the Genocide route. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
KamikazePotato 07/13/22 6:12:51 PM #31:	andylt posted... (even with the game calling me out on doing that) This is one of the reasons I always feel very comfortable recommending that video as an alternative to playing Genocide. Undertale is so good about player choice in every regard. --- It's Reyn Time. <cite>KamikazePotato posted [p:966551762] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>andylt posted... </cite> <quote>(even with the game calling me out on doing that)</quote>This is one of the reasons I always feel very comfortable recommending that video as an alternative to playing Genocide. Undertale is so good about player choice in every regard. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Raka_Putra 07/13/22 7:55:10 PM #32:	andylt posted... Who is everybody's favourite random monster encounter? I like them all, from Woshua to Tsunderplane! Tsunderplane is up there for me for sure. My favorite's gotta be Temmie. --- "So much love in his words." - RIP Stephen Sondheim, 1930-2021 <cite>Raka_Putra posted [p:966553977] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>andylt posted... </cite> <quote>Who is everybody's favourite random monster encounter? I like them all, from Woshua to Tsunderplane!</quote>Tsunderplane is up there for me for sure. My favorite's gotta be Temmie. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0r0n 07/14/22 1:27:53 AM #33:	Neutral path is a nice game, true ending is an amazing game, and genocide makes it into one of the best games ever which will probably never be replicated. A big part of that is that you need to play it to get the full effect. Sucks that you didn't since it seemed like you weren't spoiled at all on it. The video is fine but you miss the really unique stuff. --- _foolmo_ he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance <cite>foolm0r0n posted [p:966560029] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>Neutral path is a nice game, true ending is an amazing game, and genocide makes it into one of the best games ever which will probably never be replicated. A big part of that is that you need to play it to get the full effect. Sucks that you didn't since it seemed like you weren't spoiled at all on it. The video is fine but you miss the really unique stuff. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
tcaz2 07/14/22 3:56:01 AM #34:	I heavily disagree that playing genocide 'makes the game better' Its EXISTENCE does, but playing it does not <cite>tcaz2 posted [p:966561569] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>I heavily disagree that playing genocide 'makes the game better' Its EXISTENCE does, but playing it does not </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0r0n 07/14/22 9:25:38 AM #35:	How so? By better I don't mean more fun, to be clear --- _foolmo_ he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance <cite>foolm0r0n posted [p:966564814] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>How so? By better I don't mean more fun, to be clear </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 07/14/22 11:09:50 AM #36:	I think there's multiple ways to engage with games as art objects and the vast majority of the time it doesn't create "better" or "worse" experiences, just different ones. And I really don't think Genocide route is an exception to that. For example the biggest thing is the tedium of having to grind out kills which is both 1) not unique to Undertale, many games require tedium to progress and 2) replaced by a different sort of tedium by having to watch a video --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:966566965] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>I think there's multiple ways to engage with games as art objects and the vast majority of the time it doesn't create "better" or "worse" experiences, just different ones. And I really don't think Genocide route is an exception to that. For example the biggest thing is the tedium of having to grind out kills which is both 1) not unique to Undertale, many games require tedium to progress and 2) replaced by a different sort of tedium by having to watch a video </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0r0n 07/15/22 12:34:22 AM #37:	HeroDelTiempo17 posted... I think there's multiple ways to engage with games as art objects and the vast majority of the time it doesn't create "better" or "worse" experiences, just different ones. That's a common thought but it's so reductive. Those experiences are all equally valid, but they are certainly on a wide spectrum of quality. For example, it's obvious that quitting the game after 10 mins is not a good way to experience the game. Even though a huge portion of players had that exact experience. So much design effort in any game is spent trying to hook the player for just a few more minutes, because designers know how much better their experience can be. To the extent that art is about experiencing things, it's better art if it gives you something you can't get anywhere else. You allude to this in your point #1. If you can get the same experience in many other places, then it's a commodity, which is kinda the opposite of art. The way genocide uses the trope of grinding is so different though. Other games are designed to encourage grinding, but Undertale does everything in it's power to discourage it. But you're still compelled to do it due to... something. The reason is different for everyone and the game pulls it out of you (Chara, mirror, etc). Or you quit it, which a difficult and illuminating choice too. You can't get out of that playthrough without changing the way you see games. Watching a 1 hour vid on 2x that you can skip around and pause is nothing like it. So I'm saying that the genocide video experience is wayyyy more commoditized. It's still good and it's cool Toby Fox planned for it, but there's a lot of dramatic let's plays like that you can find. Nothing has even come close to the real thing though. (mayyyybe Nier 2) I also miss the era of giant Undertale rant posts --- _foolmo_ he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance <cite>foolm0r0n posted [p:966584503] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>HeroDelTiempo17 posted... </cite> <quote>I think there's multiple ways to engage with games as art objects and the vast majority of the time it doesn't create "better" or "worse" experiences, just different ones. </quote>That's a common thought but it's so reductive. Those experiences are all equally valid, but they are certainly on a wide spectrum of quality. For example, it's obvious that quitting the game after 10 mins is not a good way to experience the game. Even though a huge portion of players had that exact experience. So much design effort in any game is spent trying to hook the player for just a few more minutes, because designers know how much better their experience can be. To the extent that art is about experiencing things, it's better art if it gives you something you can't get anywhere else. You allude to this in your point #1. If you can get the same experience in many other places, then it's a commodity, which is kinda the opposite of art. The way genocide uses the trope of grinding is so different though. Other games are designed to encourage grinding, but Undertale does everything in it's power to discourage it. But you're still compelled to do it due to... something. The reason is different for everyone and the game pulls it out of you (Chara, mirror, etc). Or you quit it, which a difficult and illuminating choice too. You can't get out of that playthrough without changing the way you see games. Watching a 1 hour vid on 2x that you can skip around and pause is nothing like it. So I'm saying that the genocide video experience is wayyyy more commoditized. It's still good and it's cool Toby Fox planned for it, but there's a lot of dramatic let's plays like that you can find. Nothing has even come close to the real thing though. (mayyyybe Nier 2) I also miss the era of giant Undertale rant posts </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
tcaz2 07/15/22 12:39:53 AM #38:	foolm0r0n posted... But you're still compelled to do it due to... something. But I'm not. That's the thing. It doesn't give me anything new because I would never be 'compelled' to do it the way you say it's designed to. I can get the experience of doing something I don't want to do anywhere. Repackaging that something I don't want to do in a new way doesn't make it interesting, just different. I appreciate it more having not done it than if I had done it, because I would have hated it. <cite>tcaz2 posted [p:966584571] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>foolm0r0n posted... </cite> <quote>But you're still compelled to do it due to... something.</quote>But I'm not. That's the thing. It doesn't give me anything new because I would never be 'compelled' to do it the way you say it's designed to. I can get the experience of doing something I don't want to do anywhere. Repackaging that something I don't want to do in a new way doesn't make it interesting, just different. I appreciate it more having not done it than if I had done it, because I would have hated it. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0r0n 07/15/22 8:56:32 AM #39:	tcaz2 posted... But I'm not. That's the thing. It doesn't give me anything new because I would never be 'compelled' to do it the way you say it's designed to. No, I'm saying it's designed to really make you face the choice of continuing the run or not. You have to decide not to play in a conscious and revealing way. Not trying it at all is totally valid of course, but it's just another experience of "nah that's not my thing". For example reading a list of achievements and deciding not to do the platinum, which we do dozens of times. So yeah you prob would've hated it, but you definitely would've appreciated it too. You wouldn't even think that was possible without playing it, which is why it's so good and unmatched. --- _foolmo_ he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance <cite>foolm0r0n posted [p:966589568] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>tcaz2 posted... </cite> <quote>But I'm not. That's the thing. It doesn't give me anything new because I would never be 'compelled' to do it the way you say it's designed to.</quote>No, I'm saying it's designed to really make you face the choice of continuing the run or not. You have to decide not to play in a conscious and revealing way. Not trying it at all is totally valid of course, but it's just another experience of "nah that's not my thing". For example reading a list of achievements and deciding not to do the platinum, which we do dozens of times. So yeah you prob would've hated it, but you definitely would've appreciated it too. You wouldn't even think that was possible without playing it, which is why it's so good and unmatched. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 07/15/22 11:50:50 AM #40:	foolm0r0n posted... That's a common thought but it's so reductive. Those experiences are all equally valid, but they are certainly on a wide spectrum of quality. For example, it's obvious that quitting the game after 10 mins is not a good way to experience the game. Even though a huge portion of players had that exact experience. So much design effort in any game is spent trying to hook the player for just a few more minutes, because designers know how much better their experience can be. We can agree that not interacting with an object is an incomplete way to experience that object, and yet I STILL cannot make any claim about the quality of that experience because I can't guarantee further engagement would be positive for that person! The same goes for playing vs watching a video. At any rate, I think the trend in game design to constantly push for another 10 minutes of engagement is just bad, so I don't think we're going to agree on this. foolm0r0n posted... The way genocide uses the trope of grinding is so different though. Other games are designed to encourage grinding, but Undertale does everything in it's power to discourage it. But you're still compelled to do it due to... something. The reason is different for everyone and the game pulls it out of you (Chara, mirror, etc). Or you quit it, which a difficult and illuminating choice too. You can't get out of that playthrough without changing the way you see games. Watching a 1 hour vid on 2x that you can skip around and pause is nothing like it. It's really not as different as you're making it sound. It's grinding. People know if they like it or not. The thing that unites Undertale and how most games use grinding is that they're both an obstacle to gate story content (and the thing that divides them is that Undertale does not use grinding as a cynical method to produce more engagement). What Undertale does is place that story gating in a new context and creates an oppressive atmosphere. This is not even the only game I've played that does this: No More Heroes 2 immediately comes to mind. That's fine! I think you can make some damn good art just by taking old concepts and putting them in a new context. After all, as Toby's wise landlord once wrote, "There is essentially nothing new in paradox space. Everything that can happen is either a visual or substantive reproduction of something which has already transpired." Toby Fox is very obviously a master at doing this. If I'm understanding your argument it's that actually playing the route introduces more decision points to the player, which is true, and I think is an interesting design. I could also say that choosing not to play is its own decision point, and anyways more decision points isn't always better. There is no real "player choice" in the Pacifist and Genocide routes. They're scripted, and require specific interactions to proceed. By contrast, the Neutral route has 91 possible ending variations. And yet only 2 of the 93 routes really seem to stick with people. Undertale is trying to tell us that maybe not all of our choices actually matter. I can know this without playing through all 91 Neutral routes individually to confirm my suspicion. So when you're talking about Genocide route, you have two options: engage with the thing, or don't. All of what you're describing are microdecisions feeding into the big one. Undertale uses a lot of video gamey tricks to shape individual experiences leading to this decision, and I think those are cool and good in terms of the form the story takes, but they're not essential to the main point. Which by my estimation is more of a question/statement about how and why we engage with these stories at all. This is why Flowey calls the players watching a video out, and why he is right to do so, and also why he is wrong when he tries to imply there's a difference between the two. This is getting long so I'll leave it at that. But I think what I'm getting here is that you're probably a lot more invested in the actual structure of the route than most people are going to be. Which again, is not a better or worse experience. It's just a different one. --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:966592930] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>foolm0r0n posted... </cite> <quote>That's a common thought but it's so reductive. Those experiences are all equally valid, but they are certainly on a wide spectrum of quality. For example, it's obvious that quitting the game after 10 mins is not a good way to experience the game. Even though a huge portion of players had that exact experience. So much design effort in any game is spent trying to hook the player for just a few more minutes, because designers know how much better their experience can be.</quote> We can agree that not interacting with an object is an incomplete way to experience that object, and yet I STILL cannot make any claim about the quality of that experience because I can't guarantee further engagement would be positive for that person! The same goes for playing vs watching a video. At any rate, I think the trend in game design to constantly push for another 10 minutes of engagement is just bad, so I don't think we're going to agree on this. foolm0r0n posted... </cite> <quote>The way genocide uses the trope of grinding is so different though. Other games are designed to encourage grinding, but Undertale does everything in it's power to discourage it. But you're still compelled to do it due to... something. The reason is different for everyone and the game pulls it out of you (Chara, mirror, etc). Or you quit it, which a difficult and illuminating choice too. You can't get out of that playthrough without changing the way you see games. Watching a 1 hour vid on 2x that you can skip around and pause is nothing like it.</quote> It's really not as different as you're making it sound. It's grinding. People know if they like it or not. The thing that unites Undertale and how most games use grinding is that they're both an obstacle to gate story content (and the thing that divides them is that Undertale does not use grinding as a cynical method to produce more engagement). What Undertale does is place that story gating in a new context and creates an oppressive atmosphere. This is not even the only game I've played that does this: No More Heroes 2 immediately comes to mind. That's fine! I think you can make some damn good art just by taking old concepts and putting them in a new context. After all, as Toby's wise landlord once wrote, "There is essentially nothing new in paradox space. Everything that can happen is either a visual or substantive reproduction of something which has already transpired." Toby Fox is very obviously a master at doing this. If I'm understanding your argument it's that actually playing the route introduces more decision points to the player, which is true, and I think is an interesting design. I could also say that choosing not to play is its own decision point, and anyways more decision points isn't always better. There is no real "player choice" in the Pacifist and Genocide routes. They're scripted, and require specific interactions to proceed. By contrast, the Neutral route has 91 possible ending variations. And yet only 2 of the 93 routes really seem to stick with people. Undertale is trying to tell us that maybe not all of our choices actually matter. I can know this without playing through all 91 Neutral routes individually to confirm my suspicion. So when you're talking about Genocide route, you have two options: engage with the thing, or don't. All of what you're describing are microdecisions feeding into the big one. Undertale uses a lot of video gamey tricks to shape individual experiences leading to this decision, and I think those are cool and good in terms of the form the story takes, but they're not essential to the main point. Which by my estimation is more of a question/statement about how and why we engage with these stories at all. This is why Flowey calls the players watching a video out, and why he is right to do so, and also why he is wrong when he tries to imply there's a difference between the two. This is getting long so I'll leave it at that. But I think what I'm getting here is that you're probably a lot more invested in the actual structure of the route than most people are going to be. Which again, is not a better or worse experience. It's just a different one. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NFUN 07/15/22 12:22:35 PM #41:	shoutouts to the Last Battle chapter of Wheel of Time --- Kneel... or you will be knelt <cite>NFUN posted [p:966593603] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>shoutouts to the Last Battle chapter of Wheel of Time </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0r0n 07/16/22 10:24:13 AM #42:	HeroDelTiempo17 posted... Which by my estimation is more of a question/statement about how and why we engage with these stories at all. Right, and which other games really put this question in front of the player? It's a choice you make every single time you play any game, but you never examine it until here. (Just remembered Spec Ops The Line tries this too but it's not as well executed) That's what I mean by better. It's 1 choice in 1 game that changes your perception of the 100s of games you've played and will play. If you can get that from watching the video then cool, but I don't think you can. HeroDelTiempo17 posted... you're probably a lot more invested in the actual structure of the route than most people are going to be. Probably, but I've seen a lot of people get it and talk about it. I didn't get it initially until I saw others talking about it. And of course many won't care about that at all and just think it's funny seeing Sans acting badass. That's art though, can't guarantee an experience, but you should at least try. --- _foolmo_ he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance <cite>foolm0r0n posted [p:966615256] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>HeroDelTiempo17 posted... </cite> <quote>Which by my estimation is more of a question/statement about how and why we engage with these stories at all.</quote>Right, and which other games really put this question in front of the player? It's a choice you make every single time you play any game, but you never examine it until here. (Just remembered Spec Ops The Line tries this too but it's not as well executed) That's what I mean by better. It's 1 choice in 1 game that changes your perception of the 100s of games you've played and will play. If you can get that from watching the video then cool, but I don't think you can. HeroDelTiempo17 posted... </cite> <quote>you're probably a lot more invested in the actual structure of the route than most people are going to be.</quote>Probably, but I've seen a lot of people get it and talk about it. I didn't get it initially until I saw others talking about it. And of course many won't care about that at all and just think it's funny seeing Sans acting badass. That's art though, can't guarantee an experience, but you should at least try. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 07/16/22 11:04:46 AM #43:	foolm0r0n posted... Right, and which other games really put this question in front of the player? It's a choice you make every single time you play any game, but you never examine it until here. I mean the video also puts that question in front of you, pretty directly. It's the same. foolm0r0n posted... That's what I mean by better. It's 1 choice in 1 game that changes your perception of the 100s of games you've played and will play. If you can get that from watching the video then cool, but I don't think you can. You can though. This topic is proof of that. Let me get meta about the structure for a moment. Flowey talking about people watching videos is not just a concession to the people who won't play the route. By anticipating it before it happens and directly referencing playthrough videos in text, they become part of the game. Watching a video, therefore, IS playing Undertale, because Undertale already knows this is a choice the player has and has planned for it. So when someone makes a topic on a message board and people start arguing about Genocide route and trying to convince them one way or another, we are essentially all backseat gaming. We are trying to influence how someone plays the game (depending on if you consider backseat gaming also "playing the game," this is also "playing" Undertale). KP links a video, knowing what happens in the route that makes that interesting. This whole conversation, about if playing or watching a video is "better" is also being facilitated by Flowey's dialogue. This is all just metanarrative, determined by the game design! --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:966615880] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>foolm0r0n posted... </cite> <quote>Right, and which other games really put this question in front of the player? It's a choice you make every single time you play any game, but you never examine it until here.</quote> I mean the video also puts that question in front of you, pretty directly. It's the same. foolm0r0n posted... </cite> <quote>That's what I mean by better. It's 1 choice in 1 game that changes your perception of the 100s of games you've played and will play. If you can get that from watching the video then cool, but I don't think you can.</quote> You can though. This topic is proof of that. Let me get meta about the structure for a moment. Flowey talking about people watching videos is not just a concession to the people who won't play the route. By anticipating it before it happens and directly referencing playthrough videos in text, they become part of the game. Watching a video, therefore, IS playing Undertale, because Undertale already knows this is a choice the player has and has planned for it. So when someone makes a topic on a message board and people start arguing about Genocide route and trying to convince them one way or another, we are essentially all backseat gaming. We are trying to influence how someone plays the game (depending on if you consider backseat gaming also "playing the game," this is also "playing" Undertale). KP links a video, knowing what happens in the route that makes that interesting. This whole conversation, about if playing or watching a video is "better" is also being facilitated by Flowey's dialogue. This is all just metanarrative, determined by the game design! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0r0n 07/17/22 10:55:51 AM #44:	It is playing, sure. But I never said it's not a valid way to engage with the game, it's just way weaker than playing the route yourself. So of course I want to influence people to do the stronger experience, even if it means quitting early and then going to watch the vid. --- _foolmo_ he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance <cite>foolm0r0n posted [p:966636424] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>It is playing, sure. But I never said it's not a valid way to engage with the game, it's just way weaker than playing the route yourself. So of course I want to influence people to do the stronger experience, even if it means quitting early and then going to watch the vid. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HeroDelTiempo17 07/17/22 12:45:59 PM #45:	It's not always stronger. Tcaz just told you the psychological tricks would not work that way for them and you just dismissed them and said it would. You also brought up Spec Ops, plenty of people think that game just doesn't work at all. Not in a way where they gain understanding of it via things they hate, but because they disagree with the actual mechanisms of presentation. --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! <cite>HeroDelTiempo17 posted [p:966638339] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>It's not always stronger. Tcaz just told you the psychological tricks would not work that way for them and you just dismissed them and said it would. You also brought up Spec Ops, plenty of people think that game just doesn't work at all. Not in a way where they gain understanding of it via things they hate, but because they disagree with the actual mechanisms of presentation. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
andylt 07/18/22 6:12:13 AM #46:	When I made this topic I had zero intention of even watching the genocide route, I only did so as several people here spoke highly of it (and I'm glad they did!). I'm sure I missed out on many things by not playing it myself, but I simply had no desire to go through that experience, and hearing how unpleasant and grindy it can be to play doesn't fill me with regret! foolm0r0n posted... Other games are designed to encourage grinding, but Undertale does everything in it's power to discourage it. But you're still compelled to do it due to... something. The reason is different for everyone and the game pulls it out of you (Chara, mirror, etc). Or you quit it, which a difficult and illuminating choice too. You can't get out of that playthrough without changing the way you see games. That's the thing though, I didn't feel compelled to do it at all. I made my decision not to engage with the route before starting it, so I really don't see what fundamental change in the way I see games would have transpired. I appreciate all the work they put into it, and it's great that it clearly means a lot for you and many others, but I don't feel like I played the game 'wrong'. Doing genocide apparently stains your save so that it marks any pacifist run you do afterwards (lol neat addition), which makes me think that the devs considered abstaining from genocide to be a valid choice. Oddly enough I did play Spec Ops The Line and did get something out of the experience lol, I didn't feel like the game was chastising me personally for playing it though which I know is what rubs some people the wrong way. --- Very slowly becoming a Final Fantasy aficionado. <cite>andylt posted [p:966654201] in I finally ... [t:80083693]...</cite> <quote>When I made this topic I had zero intention of even watching the genocide route, I only did so as several people here spoke highly of it (and I'm glad they did!). I'm sure I missed out on many things by not playing it myself, but I simply had no desire to go through that experience, and hearing how unpleasant and grindy it can be to play doesn't fill me with regret! foolm0r0n posted... </cite> <quote>Other games are designed to encourage grinding, but Undertale does everything in it's power to discourage it. But you're still compelled to do it due to... something. The reason is different for everyone and the game pulls it out of you (Chara, mirror, etc). Or you quit it, which a difficult and illuminating choice too. You can't get out of that playthrough without changing the way you see games.</quote>That's the thing though, I didn't feel compelled to do it at all. I made my decision not to engage with the route before starting it, so I really don't see what fundamental change in the way I see games would have transpired. I appreciate all the work they put into it, and it's great that it clearly means a lot for you and many others, but I don't feel like I played the game 'wrong'. Doing genocide apparently stains your save so that it marks any pacifist run you do afterwards (lol neat addition), which makes me think that the devs considered abstaining from genocide to be a valid choice. Oddly enough I did play Spec Ops The Line and did get something out of the experience lol, I didn't feel like the game was chastising me personally for playing it though which I know is what rubs some people the wrong way. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Board 8 > I finally got around to playing Undertale *spoilers* (+) Yeah! (+)

Board 8 > I finally got around to playing Undertale spoilers