Current Events > Medieval peasants worked only 150 days in a year. Mandatory holidays.

(+) Yeah! (+)

There's plenty wrong with our work-based culture, but this feels like it's purposely not factoring in all the shit modern humans buy that couldn't even be conceptualized back then. Simply for that reason, we need to work more, but we're also trying to support a system in which exponentially more people exist compared to back then.

Man it's a good thing they had a Nintendo switch or PC or PlayStation or Xbox with all that down time

OH WAIT LMFAO HAHAHAHAAHAH

Touch posted...

Man it's a good thing they had a Nintendo switch or PC or PlayStation or Xbox with all that down time

OH WAIT LMFAO HAHAHAHAAHAH

I dunno man, some of those medieval games were pretty sick. And the Switch is outdated enough that maybe they did have it back then.

WingsOfGood posted...

there is not time machine

stop trying to cope and think you have better things today so it is ok you work more hours

start thinking why you need to work more hours today and if working less hours actually means you go back in time

because spoilers, it doesn't
you will not go back in time, you will live in modern time and just work less hours

I thought this was about medieval times....but okay. I work the hours I do to enjoy far more luxery and conveniences now then we ever had before. That wouldn't exist if not for how long and hard we work today. And even if they did, we probabaly wouldn't have money enough to enjoy them. Ever. Because economic mobility was not a thing then.

If you're prepared to give that all up though, fine, but whatever you had in mind likely won't be possible on a small income or UBI. Alternatively and realistically though you can liquidate everything, buy a RV, work seasonal jobs or gigs around the countey and then yeet off for the rest of the year. Doing whatever you wanted before repeating the process.

Prismsblade posted...

I thought this was about medieval times....but okay. I work the hours I do to enjoy far more luxery and conveniences now then we ever had before. That wouldn't exist if not for how long and hard we work today. And even if they did, we probabaly wouldn't have money enough to enjoy them. Ever. Because economic mobility was not a thing then.

If you're prepared to give that all up though, fine, but whatever you had in mind likely won't be possible on a small income or UBI. Alternatively and realistically though you can liquidate everything, buy a RV, work seasonal jobs or gigs around the countey and then yeet off for the rest of the year. Doing whatever you wanted before repeating the process.

What if I wanna play Nintendo Switch but not in an RV? I don't mind small spaces, I just don't wanna pay for gas.

Kimimaro posted...

but this feels like it's purposely not factoring in all the s*** modern humans buy that couldn't even be conceptualized back then. Simply for that reason, we need to work more

excuse me?

you need to work more because some company is making massive profit on R&D?

what is this bunk logic?

Touch posted...

Man it's a good thing they had a Nintendo switch or PC or PlayStation or Xbox with all that down time

OH WAIT LMFAO HAHAHAHAAHAH

Not like the US is producing any of that stuff.

EU countries seem to manage just fine with people working ~230 days per year. The only problem here is that excessively rich people want to continue hoarding all the wealth and power

IMNOTRAGED posted...

Not like the US is producing any of that stuff.

yeah all the stuff people being like "WE need to work more hours to enjoy this.." is literally made from child to compelled labor overseas where they work even longer.

aka the argument is even worse than it seems at face value

literally supporting child and compelled labor of overworking some poor person overseas for your "modern comforts"

Mass strikes are the answer imo

WingsOfGood posted...

excuse me?

you need to work more because some company is making massive profit on R&D?

what is this bunk logic?

If you want the conveniences of modern life, you need to work more to obtain them. As I said, "there's plenty wrong with our work-based culture," but this comparison to peasants is kinda silly because it ignores what the average person today possesses and takes advantage of. Something like advocating for 32 hour work weeks and more mandatory vacation like Europeans is something we can realistically strive for. "People who lived in completely different circumstances than you worked less" is just kind of irrelevant to all that.

But even without solutions, yes it is absurd how much people work

Kimimaro posted...

If you want the conveniences of modern life, you need to work more to obtain them.

Says who? Some rich dude?
You just trying to grab to most low hanging copium you can grasp to.

Also, what is a modern convenience? A house? people don't own them, they are a luxury

WingsOfGood posted...

Says who? Some rich dude?
You just trying to grab to most low hanging copium you can grasp to.

I'm really confused. Do you think that just because we have some fairly major exploitation issues going on that people don't need to work more than in the past? We can certainly work less and still have the same quality of life, but we cannot work that much less.

Kimimaro posted...

people don't need to work more than in the past?

They do not. You didn't know productivity is up like 300% since the 1970s?

There is 0 basis saying you need to work more in the modern era. All the evidence says the opposite.

BloodMoon7 posted...

What if I wanna play Nintendo Switch but not in an RV? I don't mind small spaces, I just don't wanna pay for gas.

If you're on your own I can't think of anything that'll let you do so often without being mobile and needing fuel for a generator.

Prismsblade posted...

If you're on your own I can't think of anything that'll let you do so often without being mobile and needing fuel for a generator.

Damn not even if I give up healthcare?

think about it this way

in medeival times to count payment, you would have to sit down and carefully count each coin

today we can dump it into a machine

furthermore, most the time it is all digital and needs 0 work to be done and instantly calculates the transaction

you are saying because this exists, we need to work harder, longer hours than people back them?

your thinking is backwards and baseless

WingsOfGood posted...

They do not. You didn't know productivity is up like 300% since the 1970s?

There is 0 basis saying you need to work more in the modern era. All the evidence says the opposite.

And population has doubled, as has a lot of need for day to day life.

And I'd like to see people today handle some of the simple jobs of the older days. Imagine being a cashier 60 years ago: no point of sale systems to track inventory. No barcode scanners so you have to remember prices. Do debit or credit machines in lieu of a clunky mechanical adding machine. Not even a pocket calculator. I dont' think people have gotten more productive. The world got more productive by removing the human dead weight.

WingsOfGood posted...

They do not. You didn't know productivity is up like 300% since the 1970s?

There is 0 basis saying you need to work more in the modern era. All the evidence says the opposite.

OK, I think you just vastly underestimate what goes into keeping up our consumer lifestyle. Working less, yes. Working less than peasants whose pastimes likely widely consisted of going to church, getting plastered, and surviving the winter, no.

lightwarrior78 posted...

as has a lot of need for day to day life.

such as?

profit is not made by supplying need but by creating scarcity

the idea that we work hard to satisfy all the NEEDS is dishonest
very dishonest

Tag

lightwarrior78 posted...

dont' think people have gotten more productive. The world got more productive by removing the human dead weight.

are robots doing the work? no

then PEOPLE are who is more productive

The-Apostle posted...

Tag

why not participate?
give your take

BloodMoon7 posted...

Damn not even if I give up healthcare?

Well, maybe becoming a otr trucker is a option for you. I don't own a switch and kept thinking of it as a traditional console when its not. Lol, plus many truck stops have wifi that vary in speed depending on the time. So there's that.

WingsOfGood posted...

think about it this way

in medeival times to count payment, you would have to sit down and carefully count each coin

today we can dump it into a machine

furthermore, most the time it is all digital and needs 0 work to be done and instantly calculates the transaction

you are saying because this exists, we need to work harder, longer hours than people back them?

your thinking is backwards and baseless

I'm afraid it's the other way around.

John Maynard Keyness Depression-era predictions of an automated future with a 15-hour work week, have not come true:

https://futuresofwork.co.uk/2020/12/02/the-full-automation-fallacy/

As it states in the article:

"Modern technologies appear to function not by helping us achieve our ends but instead by determining ends for us, by providing us with ends that we must help technologies achieve. Thus the Roomba owner must organize their home in accordance with the maneuvering needs of the Roomba, just as the smartphone owner must organize their activities in accordance with the power and data consumption needs of the smartphone. Surely we buy such devices to serve our needs but, once bought, we become so fascinated with the devices that we develop new needs, such as the need to keep the device working so that the device can keep us fascinated."

I think it really highlights the problems with a lot of technology, they don't "save time", but merely occasionally allow us to borrow it, often at a cost.

WingsOfGood posted...

why not participate?
give your take

My brothers a history buff. I just wanted the links.

Eh, I bookmarked them. >_>

Prismsblade posted...

Well, maybe becoming a otr trucker is a option for you. I don't own a switch and kept thinking of it as a traditional console when its not. Lol, plus many truck stops have wifi that vary in speed depending on the time. So there's that.

Yeah I pretty much play handheld and offline games. Well I'm off to be the very best trucker, like no one ever was.

knightmarexx posted...

I'm afraid it's the other way around.

John Maynard Keyness Depression-era predictions of an automated future with a 15-hour work week, have not come true:

https://futuresofwork.co.uk/2020/12/02/the-full-automation-fallacy/

my job is to automate things

what happens when things are automated is some people leave and the people left have to pick up what portions of their work is not automated

this combined with longer hours is why productivity is up

automation isn't being used as it is supposed to be, which is to provide relief

it is being used to exploit for more and more profits

it is like when a line not only hits the quota but doubles it, instead of telling everyone good job go home they say "ok now lets TRIPLE IT! work HARDER!"

WingsOfGood posted...

my job is to automate things

what happens when things are automated is some people leave and the people left have to pick up what portions of their work is not automated

this combined with longer hours is why productivity is up

automation isn't being used as it is supposed to be, which is to provide relief

it is being used to exploit for more and more profits

it is like when a line not only hits the quota but doubles it, instead of telling everyone good job go home they say "ok now lets TRIPLE IT! work HARDER!"

It goes into detail about that exact thing in the article. Calling a lot of the stuff "shadow work" often for very customer the automation is supposed to serve.

knightmarexx posted...

It goes into detail about that exact thing in the article. Calling a lot of the stuff "shadow work" often for very customer the automation is supposed to serve.

Yep.

But the point is there is no need for it to be like this. Infact, it should work the other way around.
The why is because profit and exploitation.

The idea that people need to work more today because of modern conveniences is an ignorant or dishonest take.

People work more to make people richer than anyone in history. That is why you work longer.

EmbraceOfDeath posted...

The comments of "oh but life was so bad in those times" are stupid as hell. Life being bad in those times is not relevant to the hours they worked and vice versa. They are separate things, and modern quality of life isn't better than life was in medieval times due to working more hours, so it holds no purpose to the discussion. Shut the fuck up with those comments.

It kind of is, though. The hours worked are the hours they worked the land, as I am reading this. Something like cooking becomes a whole day affair. First you need the fire you are going to be cooking on. This requires wood or charcoal which needs to be collected, stacked, and in the case of charcoal, made.

If you are raising animals, you are taking care of them 365 days a year. There's no taking a day off with live stock. Having chickens, cows, pigs, etc. would be highly desirable, since then you can get your own milk and eggs instead of having to buy it.

Then if you want things like butter, you are churning that yourself, which is laborious. Even milking a cow is real work.

Something like cleaning your clothes becomes a matter of taking potentially hours instead of just tossing it in the washing machine.

So I'd say yeah, as a matter of how much "time" people worked, it makes sense to bring up the conveniences of modern life and how much time it saves people.

Norman_Smiley posted...

It kind of is, though. The hours worked are the hours they worked the land, as I am reading this. Something like cooking becomes a whole day affair. First you need the fire you are going to be cooking on. This requires wood or charcoal which needs to be collected, stacked, and in the case of charcoal, made.

If you are raising animals, you are taking care of them 365 days a year. There's no taking a day off with live stock. Having chickens, cows, pigs, etc. would be highly desirable, since then you can get your own milk and eggs instead of having to buy it.

Then if you want things like butter, you are churning that yourself, which is laborious. Even milking a cow is real work.

Something like cleaning your clothes becomes a matter of taking potentially hours instead of just tossing it in the washing machine.

So I'd say yeah, as a matter of how much "time" people worked, it makes sense to bring up the conveniences of modern life and how much time it saves people.

wrong!

The peasant's free time extended beyond officially sanctioned holidays. There is considerable evidence of what economists call the backward-bending supply curve of labor -- the idea that when wages rise, workers supply less labor. During one period of unusually high wages (the late fourteenth century), many laborers refused to work "by the year or the half year or by any of the usual terms but only by the day." And they worked only as many days as were necessary to earn their customary income -- which in this case amounted to about 120 days a year, for a probable total of only 1,440 hours annually (this estimate assumes a 12-hour day because the days worked were probably during spring, summer and fall). A thirteenth-century estime finds that whole peasant families did not put in more than 150 days per year on their land. Manorial records from fourteenth-century England indicate an extremely short working year -- 175 days -- for servile laborers. Later evidence for farmer-miners, a group with control over their worktime, indicates they worked only 180 days a year.

They didn't work for the sake of working like the modern worker.

They outright said "we completed everything this year, hit what we needed, we are done!"

today you work because that is what you do

finish it all and you work more

and now you literally wrote all that to rationalize it

wow
holy

wtf are you talking about? nothing in your quote or rebuttal has anything to do with what i wrote.

Norman_Smiley posted...

wtf are you talking about? nothing in your quote or rebuttal has anything to do with what i wrote.

you are trying to say they actually worked more which is a lie

they literally ENDED their work year whenever they got the wage they were working for, something you as a modern worker could never dream of barring actually quitting.

also, your agument boils down to, "they had to cook their own food and take care of their house and stuff and I consider that work for them and not us in modern time!"

guessing you don't consider driving for an hour in traffic to work in modern times work huh?

but for the peasant cleaning their clothes whenever they feel like it is?

dishonest

WingsOfGood posted...

wrong!

They didn't work for the sake of working like the modern worker.

They outright said "we completed everything this year, hit what we needed, we are done!"

today you work because that is what you do

finish it all and you work more

and now you literally wrote all that to rationalize it

wow
holy

Much of what it took to simply survive is work by modern standards. Feeding chickens, cows, pigs, and horses every day is work. Cleaning spaces for chickens, cows, pigs, and horses is work. Making sure chickens, cows, pigs, and horses are healthy is work. Making sure chickens, cows, pigs, and horses don't get eaten or stolen is work. Making sure chickens, cows, pigs, and horses survive the winter is work. All that has to be done every single day 24/7/365 for a farmer. Shit like that would likely not be considered work under whatever definition this article is using.

I'm saying the calculations they used are for working the land. I.e. what they needed to do to pay their rent and make their annual income.

That does not include raising animals for your own consumption. That takes time every single day of the year, some days more time, some days less time.

You have to gather your own fuel rather than just buying it. Again, time, labor, effort.

Cooking was labor rather than just putting it in the microwave.

You are an utter fool if you think that isn't work. All that stuff we either pay for it within the time we work or we have tools to make it easier or what I described is likely your literal job. Try cleaning your clothes for a week on a wash board down at the creek and tell me that isn't work.

Yah buts thats hard labour. You wouldnt know itnfrom my physique but im not cut out for hard labor. Office jobs baby. Pushing papers all day.

your premise is false norman as the articles explain why they didn't work more hours

and the reason was NOT because cleaing their clothes was such hard labor

they didn't because they were given a bunch of vacation and could end the day when they pleased, as well as take breaks whenever

that take is dishonest

Could demand these days be met if everyone only worked 150 days a year?

GeraldDarko posted...

Could demand these days be met if everyone only worked 150 days a year?

You'd need to hire more employees to keep the current level of coverage but yes.