Current Events > Helena Taylor speaks out on not voicing Bayonetta in Bayo 3.

(+) Yeah! (+)

So had a bit to think and there's still one thing that bugs me.

What did she stand to gain out of this?

She didn't say she was personally looking for handouts through this, or work. Certainly she played the "starving actor" card, but it's not like studios or whatever are going to rush to her offering her a role.

She seemed to only be asking for empathy and support for actors as a whole.

And my statement from the first post still stands in that she has pretty much ended her chances of ever working in the VA business again, which hey, she may be fine with.

But then why the publicity? Especially if it apparently didn't take all that much for her to be found out.

The only thing I can think of is that there would have been a second part to this down the line. Like a couple weeks later (after B3 release) she states "and now I've got a project for you to support".

But still. In matter of a couple of days she was found out. While the story was still hot.

CyricZ posted...

So had a bit to think and there's still one thing that bugs me.

What did she stand to gain out of this?

She didn't say she was personally looking for handouts through this, or work. Certainly she played the "starving actor" card, but it's not like studios or whatever are going to rush to her offering her a role.

She seemed to only be asking for empathy and support for actors as a whole.

And my statement from the first post still stands in that she has pretty much ended her chances of ever working in the VA business again, which hey, she may be fine with.

But then why the publicity? Especially if it apparently didn't take all that much for her to be found out.

The only thing I can think of is that there would have been a second part to this down the line. Like a couple weeks later (after B3 release) she states "and now I've got a project for you to support".

But still. In matter of a couple of days she was found out. While the story was still hot.

I don't think it was about gaining anything. It was about punishing Platinum and trying to set an example to not do what they did. She has overall okay intentions but yeah went about them in the wrong way.

CyricZ posted...

So had a bit to think and there's still one thing that bugs me.

What did she stand to gain out of this?

She didn't say she was personally looking for handouts through this, or work. Certainly she played the "starving actor" card, but it's not like studios or whatever are going to rush to her offering her a role.

She seemed to only be asking for empathy and support for actors as a whole.

And my statement from the first post still stands in that she has pretty much ended her chances of ever working in the VA business again, which hey, she may be fine with.

But then why the publicity? Especially if it apparently didn't take all that much for her to be found out.

The only thing I can think of is that there would have been a second part to this down the line. Like a couple weeks later (after B3 release) she states "and now I've got a project for you to support".

But still. In matter of a couple of days she was found out. While the story was still hot.

To damage the brand.

It's possible she's just a shithead

ArchNemo posted...

I mean, 75% of CE would have just straight up doubled down. At least he's admitting he was wrong.

It seemed like he was trying to halfass saying he was wrong by saying well it could go either way now. But now he said hes wrong, so thats all fine.

Blue_Inigo posted...

It's possible she's just a shithead

There has to be something wrong with her if she really thinks recording several grunts is worth six figures.

CyricZ posted...

I was wrong.

What does that make you?

Correct, I guess? Capable of thinking critically about situations with limited information rather than assuming? I dunno what you want me to say.

CyricZ posted...

So had a bit to think and there's still one thing that bugs me.

What did she stand to gain out of this?

Nothing, she's throwing a tantrum because she didn't get her well above industry standard pay demand.

CyricZ posted...

So had a bit to think and there's still one thing that bugs me.

What did she stand to gain out of this?

She didn't say she was personally looking for handouts through this, or work. Certainly she played the "starving actor" card, but it's not like studios or whatever are going to rush to her offering her a role.

She seemed to only be asking for empathy and support for actors as a whole.

And my statement from the first post still stands in that she has pretty much ended her chances of ever working in the VA business again, which hey, she may be fine with.

But then why the publicity? Especially if it apparently didn't take all that much for her to be found out.

The only thing I can think of is that there would have been a second part to this down the line. Like a couple weeks later (after B3 release) she states "and now I've got a project for you to support".

But still. In matter of a couple of days she was found out. While the story was still hot.

Possibly a gofundme down the line but most likely she was stressed and upset so she wasn't concerned about the consequences in the moment imo.

Lorenzo_2003 posted...

That honestly is irrelevant. This isnt about scientists and it shouldnt have been a comparison to begin with. If we continued down that route, we could start throwing in the pay of Twitch streamers, professional bowlers, teachers, presidents, construction workers and so on to fit whatever narrative we want.

This VA wanted more pay, considering Bayonetta is a triple A title and she was a big part of that, and the new game is expected to sell millions of units. Obviously the studio did not agree with her expectations.

She wanted more than what was already MORE THAN industry standard, which is already much, much more than people with just as much training in more intense fields. It was completely relevant, because the entire thing was an emotional appeal to begin with about how she wasnt making enough money, and the specific thing I responded to was them talking about how skilled and valuable VAs are.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

She was already not working and after this debacle no one will ever ask her for anything again.

Zonbei posted...

which is already much, much more than people with just as much training in more intense fields.

So do you think VAs have an office where they go to work a steady 9 to 5 with those hourly rates?

Because otherwise it's pretty worthless to compare renumeration from a borderline gig employment paradigm to one of a traditional 40 hour work week.

It's too late here regardless if she is right or if Platinum is right. The masses already deemed Platinum as a scummy, evil company and will never side with them, even if legal proceeds say otherwise.

GhostFaceLeaks posted...

It's too late here regardless if she is right or if Platinum is right. The masses already deemed Platinum as a scummy, evil company and will never side with them, even if legal proceeds say otherwise.

Nah. Jason Schrier's audience is like 500x at least of what Taylor's is.

Jennifer Hale herself also RT'd something that is indirectly calling out Taylor for being deceptive.

Regardless if she conveniently left out actual vital details to this whole situation, let's not forget that it's still a prevalent issue in the VA industry, being underpaid and shafted - y'know, being easily disposable. I hope people will be able to see the bigger picture as opposed to a nuanced view like they usually do.

Zonbei posted...

Correct, I guess? Capable of thinking critically about situations with limited information rather than assuming? I dunno what you want me to say.

Correct in what? Wasn't your entire argument from the beginning that "$4000 for the entire job is fair"? *checks* Yep, it was.

It was revealed that her actual offer was considered pretty fair, yet by your logic, you think voice acting is worth far less than what she was really being offered. This seems to be where your conclusions are going here.

I didn't even see you arguing the possibility that she was lying, so while I certainly owed ArchNemo the benefit for his observation, I don't think anyone owes you anything.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Nah. Jason Schrier's audience is like 500x at least of what Taylor's is.

Jennifer Hale herself also RT'd something that is indirectly calling out Taylor for being deceptive.

The video from Taylor is now at 9.6 million views. It went viral. A lot of those people have already moved on and aren't going to read a Bloomberg article.

A big difference though is that most of those people weren't going to buy Bayo 3 anyway but it's still going to taint the character a fair bit.

DrizztLink posted...

So do you think VAs have an office where they go to work a steady 9 to 5 with those hourly rates?

Because otherwise it's pretty worthless to compare renumeration from a borderline gig employment paradigm to one of a traditional 40 hour work week.

You guys keep saying this and I dont think its the fucking slam dunk you think it is.

You think the person who makes the same amount total working 16 hours as you do working 160 hours a week has to go in and work a 9-5?

as Ive said repeatedly, no I dont, and also god I wish I was that lucky.

I'm not sold on the piece by piece of garbage Jason Schrier. A lot of guess work in his article after having "gone over the documents" from anonymous sources.

Well gee, go be a VA then.

If that one job was the only one you did for eight to ten months, is it still excessive?

CyricZ posted...

Correct in what? Wasn't your entire argument from the beginning that "$4000 for the entire job is fair"? *checks* Yep, it was.

It was revealed that her actual offer was considered pretty fair, yet by your logic, you think voice acting is worth far less than what she was really being offered. This seems to be where your conclusions are going here.

I didn't even see you arguing the possibility that she was lying, so while I certainly owed ArchNemo the benefit for his observation, I don't think anyone owes you anything.

No, my entire argument was 4000 is actually a standard amount, and the idea she was lowballed is ridiculous, as is the idea this was about money when they hired someone clearly making more than that. Something else is going on here.

lo and behold, she was being offered far more than industry standard, (which doesnt mean I believe voice acting is worth far less than she was offered. It means the fucking SAG-AFTRA union does. She was offered more than industry standard.)

I said there was something else going on here, and then everyone adamantly yelling that she was robbed was wrong. I didnt outright say she was lying because there was no proof of that. So yes. Given you decided to make a thing about it and ask me what I am, I was correct. Get over it.

DrizztLink posted...

Well gee, go be a VA then.

If that one job was the only one you did for eight to ten months, is it still excessive?

No, but I dont see why thats the fault of anyone but the person not finding work. Advocate for the ending of the gig economy version of VA, I dunno what to tell you. 4000 for 16 hours is still industry standard AND she lied and was offered far more.

I haven't said anything about her at all, I'm talking about your foundational misunderstanding of how different jobs have different pay rates.

DrizztLink posted...

Well gee, go be a VA then.

If that one job was the only one you did for eight to ten months, is it still excessive

I mean frankly Id love to be. I wasnt that lucky. Maybe someday.

Weird flex though. You think people are paid enough to do a job you think is easier? Go be one then! Ok? Is this.. whats your point here, just to insult me for not being in every career Id like to be in?

Zonbei posted...

No, my entire argument was 4000 is actually a standard amount, and the idea she was lowballed is ridiculous, as is the idea this was about money when they hired someone clearly making more than that. Something else is going on here.

lo and behold, she was being offered far more than industry standard, (which doesnt mean I believe voice acting is worth far less than she was offered. It means the fucking SAG-AFTRA union does. She was offered more than industry standard.)

I said there was something else going on here, and then everyone adamantly yelling that she was robbed was wrong. I didnt outright say she was lying because there was no proof of that. So yes. Given you decided to make a thing about it and ask me what I am, I was correct. Get over it.

The SAG-AFTRA is there to maintain a minimum standard. Not set a universal one.

Zonbei posted...

I mean frankly Id love to be. I wasnt that lucky. Maybe someday.

Weird flex though. You think people are paid enough to do a job you think is easier? Go be one then! Ok? Is this.. whats your point here, just to insult me for not being in every career Id like to be in?

What's lucky about it? Are you qualified to be one? Have you tried to break in?

DrizztLink posted...

I haven't said anything about her at all, I'm talking about your foundational misunderstanding of how different jobs have different pay rates.

I. Theres no misunderstanding here? Ive been the one explaining that to people who thought it wasnt enough money? When it was? Because different jobs have different pay rates? And 4000 for 16 hours is industry standard? And acting like they deserve even more because VAs are so important and I guess scientists and a bunch of other important careers arent is silly?

I dont think you really get what youre even arguing about.

Punished_Blinx posted...

The SAG-AFTRA is there to maintain a minimum standard. Not set a universal one.

I never said it was. I said it was.. industry standard

Punished_Blinx posted...

The SAG-AFTRA is there to maintain a minimum standard. Not set a universal one.

What's lucky about it? Are you qualified to be one? Have you tried to break in?

Various things that are none of your business are reasons why that wasnt a viable option.

Zonbei posted...

which is already much, much more than people with just as much training in more intense fields.

That's still the first thing I mentioned and it's still irrelevant to bring up due to how jobs work.

Zonbei posted...

I never said it was. I said it was.. industry standard

And this situation wasn't a typical standard that is really relevant to the discussion.

The guild unsuccessfully tried to fight for residual payments a few years ago by the way. That's gonna come up again one day. For precisely situations like this one.

DrizztLink posted...

That's still the first thing I mentioned and it's still irrelevant due to how jobs work.

yes, you have hit on the amazing detail that different careers give you different amounts of money. But given I said what a career ACTUALLY made and someone said they deserve MORE for being so IMPORTANT, I brought up another more important job that makes LESS money.

your response to my response to an emotional argument for more money based on subjective worth is: different jobs make different amounts. Yeah no shit. Thats not really relevant.

I am confused as to why this is so hard to grasp.

Punished_Blinx posted...

And this situation wasn't a typical standard that is really relevant to the discussion.

The guild unsuccessfully tried to fight for residual payments a few years ago by the way. That's gonna come up again one day. For precisely situations like this one.

Situations where a person wanted residuals on top of getting paid like 1000 dollars an hour, and then went online and lied about it for no good reason? I am not really clear what some of you are even disagreeing about at this point.

gaminggamer13 posted...

Regardless if she conveniently left out actual vital details to this whole situation, let's not forget that it's still a prevalent issue in the VA industry, being underpaid and shafted - y'know, being easily disposable. I hope people will be able to see the bigger picture as opposed to a nuanced view like they usually do.

"never admit you're wrong, even when you're (probably) wrong"

Zonbei posted...

No, but I dont see why thats the fault of anyone but the person not finding work.

"Make acting work appear you lazy person"

This is the core of your argument: what appears to be a complete callousness towards acting as a craft. The difficulty in landing roles, the rarity of roles that pay well enough, and the stress that comes with not knowing where your next paycheck is coming from.

"But 4000 is a big number!" you say to someone who might only be seeing that amount for months.

"Oh well guess it's not my problem the industry is a desert" you continue to say long after anyone is tired of your garbage.

And then to top it off by pretending like today's revelation is your victory. What utter cheek.

CyricZ posted...

"Make acting work appear you lazy person"

This is the core of your argument: what appears to be a complete callousness towards acting as a craft. The difficulty in landing roles, the rarity of roles that pay well enough, and the stress that comes with not knowing where your next paycheck is coming from.

"But 4000 is a big number!" you say to someone who might only be seeing that amount for months.

"Oh well guess it's not my problem the industry is a desert" you continue to say long after anyone is tired of your garbage.

And then to top it off by pretending like today's revelation is your victory. What utter cheek.

No, the core of my argument is even if this fucking person had literally this one 16 hour job for a month theyd be making as much money as I am. Then youre like but what if thats the only job they get!

then then theyll be as well off as me for way less work?

Then you take it further and go oh but they might not work for 9 months! This is insane. If theres no demand for a job then you dont have a job. Get a job that exists. I dont know what to tell you. I want a job where I get paid to eat cookie dough and go on dates, but that doesnt exist so I cant get paid for it.

I dont understand how its on anyone else to pay someone 9 months of living wages for a 16 hour job because theres too many voice actors for the amount of jobs. what is your stance here even? Everyone who wants to be a voice actor should have a job where they get paid as much as they need for a year no matter how much they work?

Zonbei posted...

yes, you have hit on the amazing detail that different careers give you different amounts of money. But given I said what a career ACTUALLY made and someone said they deserve MORE for being so IMPORTANT, I brought up another more important job that makes LESS money.

If jobs were paid by importance doctors would be billionaires. But that's not how it works.

When it comes to the entertainment field people are generally paid by the money they're expected to bring in for any project and also the revenue that project continues to make in the future. Which is why it's a high risk and high reward profession.

Systems like these NDA's and contracts are designed to stop performers from benefiting from that system. The people in charge want to take the revenue for themselves and keep performers on the flat rates even if they can leverage those performances and work for monetary gain for perpetuity.

It just isn't comparable to soil scientists or whatever. Who often have to rely on donors and other sources of funding.

It's not about "why should this person be paid that much when I don't"

In these situations that money is always going somewhere. What you're arguing is that the incoming money shouldn't go to voice actors because of your job in a completely different field.

Punished_Blinx posted...

If jobs were paid by importance doctors would be billionaires. But that's not how it works.

When it comes to the entertainment field people are generally paid by the money they're expected to bring in for any project and also the revenue that project continues to make in the future. Which is why it's a high risk and high reward profession.

Systems like these NDA's and contracts are designed to stop performers from benefiting from that system. The people in charge want to take the revenue for themselves and keep performers on the flat rates even if they can leverage those performances and work for monetary gain for perpetuity.

It just isn't comparable to soil scientists or whatever. Who often have to rely on donors and other sources of funding.

Im fully aware jobs dont pay by importance. That was in fact my entire point. The person I REPLIED TO said voice actors should be paid more than they currently get paid (a lot) because they are so important. My counterpoint was other important jobs dont work that way.

again, I think some people are wildly confused what theyre even arguing about at this point.

Zonbei posted...

then then theyll be as well off as me for way less work? Your argument oh but they might not work for 9 months is insane. If theres no demand for a job then you dont have a job. Get a job that exists.

Exactly.

You have a complete lack of empathy for acting as a career.

Zonbei posted...

Im fully aware jobs dont pay by importance. That was in fact my entire point. The person I REPLIED TO said voice actors should be paid more than they currently get paid (a lot) because they are so important. My counterpoint was other important jobs dont work that way.

again, I think some people are wildly confused what theyre even arguing about at this point.

Most voice actors are ridiculously underpaid considering the money they rake in for the jobs that they do.

Importance has more than one implication.

CyricZ posted...

Exactly.

You have a complete lack of empathy for acting as a career.

No, I just.. understand what a job is? If theres no job offers.. you dont have a job? No matter what field youre in? Your argument is they might not have any job offers, so any offers they get need to pay their living wage for a year even if they work 16 hours.

thats insane? Like, within the framework of capitalism thats insane. Outside the framework of capitalism its also insane, for a different reason which would change the entire premise and thus make the whole thing moot.

what is your actual stance here?

Self proclaimed "socialist" has a hard time grasping the concept of getting paid relative to the wealth you generate with your labor

Way funnier than the actual topic subject imo

Punished_Blinx posted...

Most voice actors are ridiculously underpaid considering the money they rake in for the jobs that they do.

Importance has more than one implication.

so are most McDonalds workers, but nobody cares about that. My whole point here was just that someone said they deserve even more cause theyre so important. So do many other people. The fact remains this person was, even in their LIE that undersold how much money they were offered, was making standard industry wages for the hours worked. Thats it. I dont understand why people are arguing with this. Its a fact.

Zonbei posted...

Like, within the framework of capitalism thats insane.

Phew. You finally got there.

Zonbei posted...

No, I just.. understand what a job is? If theres no job offers.. you dont have a job? No matter what field youre in? Your argument is they might not have any job offers, so any offers they get need to pay their living wage for a year even if they work 16 hours.

thats insane? Like, within the framework of capitalism thats insane. Outside the framework of capitalism its also insane, for a different reason which would change the entire premise and thus make the whole thing moot.

what is your actual stance here?

You're getting muddled up in different things here.

In basically any contract work you're paying the employee a higher hourly rate compared to someone in a 9-5. You're paying for specific skills in specific situations and depending on those skills those rates go up.

This is really simple stuff mate. You can't just compare hourly works between different professions and act like they're all in equal situations.

Zonbei posted...

so are most McDonalds workers, but nobody cares about that. My whole point here was just that someone said they deserve even more cause theyre so important. So do many other people. The fact remains this person was, even in their LIE that undersold how much money they were offered, was making standard industry wages for the hours worked. Thats it. I dont understand why people are arguing with this. Its a fact.

McDonald's workers have low wages because the skill barrier means they're easily replaceable. So no those individuals aren't bringing in massive value to the business. Voice actors are literally the complete opposite of this when in many cases they're seen as irreplaceable.

Are you a teenager learning how the world works or something?

Gwynevere posted...

Self proclaimed "socialist" has a hard time grasping the concept of getting paid relative to the wealth you generate with your labor

Way funnier than the actual topic subject imo

No no. I totally get the concept. What I dont get is people applying it only to this specific thing while wildly overvaluing voice acting and not seeming to have any actual stance other than the giant capitalist company should be paying people more because otherwise they wont have enough money because they wont be working because there is no job for them to do.

this is all nonsense.

Punished_Blinx posted...

You're getting muddled up in different things here.

In basically any contract work you're paying the employee a higher hourly rate compared to someone in a 9-5. You're paying for specific skills in specific situations and depending on those skills those rates go up.

This is really simple stuff mate. You can't just compare hourly works between different professions and act like they're all in equal situations.

Correct. But when I pay my plumber, I dont pay them a FULL YEARS WAGES just in case they dont get another job for 9 months. Which is what was being argued here. Do you see my point? The plumber does the job and then they are responsible for finding another job. But apparently VAs need to be paid insane amounts because they might not get a job for 9 months. What kind of argument is that?

4000 for 16 hours was already 100 times more than I make, and at no point did I say they should make less. I was already taking into account the nature of their work. Its other people going nah they need EVEN MORE than 100 times what you make. In case they never work again or something.

Zonbei posted...

But when I pay my plumber, I dont pay them a FULL YEARS WAGES just in case they dont get another job for 9 months

Correct, because plumbers have a different renumeration paradigm.

You're getting there.

DrizztLink posted...

Correct, because plumbers have a different renumeration paradigm.

You're getting there.

Why why are VAs so special they should only have to work 16 hours and get paid enough to live 9 months, exactly? (Clearly the union doesnt agree with you, given the industrys standard wage, which makes this even more confusing.)

Zonbei posted...

Why why are VAs so special they should only have to work 16 hours and get paid enough to live 9 months, exactly? (Clearly the union doesnt agree with you, given the industrys standard wage, which makes this even more confusing.)

Because the comparative value of their labor versus the money that is gained off of it is different than that of a plumber.