Board 8 > Mercenaries 5, Day 0: Heart of Ember, Autumntide

(+) Yeah! (+)

Missed us? It's ok, guys. We missed you too.

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KanzarisKelshen ~ League of Administrative Transients (0-0, 40GP, 20 RI)
Battle: Mario, Leon Kennedy, Kazuma Kiryu (Ability 20/20), Yu Narukami, Tifa Lockhart (Ability 25/25), Selvaria Bles (Ability 1 5/5, Ability 3 20/20), Zenos viator Galvus (UPGRADED)
Support: Len (Ability 20/20) (Linked to Kiryu)
KOs/Injuries:
Recharge:
Other: Yu has S.Links with Kiryu and Selvaria (Rank 10 both); Zenos is Selvaria's lord

~VS~

Kamekguy ~ Kremkroc Industries, Inc. (0-0, 40GP, 20 RI)
Battle: Banjo-Kazooie (New Abilities 20/20), King K. Rool, Sagat, Kirby (UPGRADED), Solid Snake (15/15 Abil Upgrade), Aigis, Tusk
Support: King of All Cosmos (Linked to Banjo, 15/15 New Abil)
KO's/Injuries:
Recharge:
Other: Kirby copying Zenos, Garrus, Vivi (copying "Your friends" passive), Mario (Caps/Mega Shroom/Slingers, copying "Face of Gaming" passive), KoaC 100 Things, 5 Wonderwings

~VS~

trdl23 ~ The Trdl Association (0-0, 40GP, 20 RI)
Battle: Haurchefant Graystone, Vivi Ornitier, Slave Knight Gael (25/25 New Ability), Estinien Wyrmblood (UPGRADED), Zeratul (25/25 Char Upgrade), Garrus Vakarian, Raiden (MGR)
Support: Max Caulfield (Linked to Zeratul)
KOs/Injuries:
Recharge:
Other: Gael has 5 blood counters. Max has 1 storm counter. Permanent access to King's Court and Ala Mhigo terrains.

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Matches:

KANZARIS vs KAMEK (Mid Tier)
KAMEK vs TRDL (Low Tier)
TRDL vs KANZARIS (High Tier)

oh lord

Welcome one and all to the extravaganza! A lightning round of mercenary battles for your viewing pleasure! Interested in what these builds are like? Wanna know what the heck this AP thing is? We have a wiki for you to peruse. Enjoy!

http://mercs5wiki.wikidot.com/

ScareChan posted...

oh lord

The correct reaction

If you want to join us for this grand reinauguration, by the way, we also have a proper discord server!

https://discord.gg/wcWCMw2a

Come say hi! We promise we won't bite...much.

I'll absolutely bite if somebody's into that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gc5cuekQto

https://tenor.com/bMpQg.gif

FFDragon posted...

https://tenor.com/bMpQg.gif

https://media.tenor.com/2m1yGjnf_LUAAAAd/jotaro-kujo-yes.gif

I had too much mental health going for me lately anyway let's goooo

Im interested

Even as a joke, this is too far

Reg posted...

Even as a joke, this is too far

This is no joke. This is TRUE POWER

wow this is what happens when you say kanzaris' name 3 times

yesssssssssssssssssssss

And speaking of power...let's make some powerful moves, shall we, hmm?

And so I come before you, Aigis. To issue challenge and offer singular bliss...says Selvaria.

I need burn through the candle of my life, Garrus Vakarian. You should provide fitting sport. Face me! ...says Zenos.

I still am completely confused how mercs used to work

am I wrong or was it a very disguised popularity contest

Uh oh

masterplum posted...

I still am completely confused how mercs used to work

am I wrong or was it a very disguised popularity contest

Sort of yes and sort of no! It's a 'who would win in a fight' with extra rules and popularity always plays a role in it, but we ask the voters to try to be as objective as they can nonetheless. We can't ask people to not like some characters more and thus rate them highly, but actual fanboy voting would get axed from the tally.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/80314476

What have I done?

Hey guys remember how this stuff usually went? Yeah, me too.

The matches are on FREEZE due to a ruling being required on our first ability usage.

Love you too merx, never change baby.

...Just kidding. We've sorted it out already. This is an official unfreeze.

Rulings have been added to Garrus' page to explain the rule interaction better.

Metal Gear Solid: Tactical Espionage Action
Banjo & Kazooie Split Up! Banjo teams up with Snake, Kazooie with Kirby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntBjvqltPHY

Im confused, are there only three players?

redrocket posted...

Im confused, are there only three players?

i'm assuming it's the admins doing a demo match before actually eventually launching? idk

i hope :[]

Ohhh no

redrocket posted...

Im confused, are there only three players?

Chaeix posted...

i'm assuming it's the admins doing a demo match before actually eventually launching? idk

i hope :[]

Right on the money. We spent such a long time working on this thing that we can't expect people to remember what we discussed doing ages ago when the moon was young. Instead, we decided to let this lightning round of showmatches (one in low, mid and high) serve as a demonstration of how our system will work in practice, since even a very good ruleset (and we're proud of ours) is best understood with an example of play.

hype

Point of Concern: I don't like badmin bias in character biographies

FFDragon posted...

Point of Concern: I don't like badmin bias in character biographies

example?

Even Little Mac would get whomped in a boxing match with her, which is really saying something.

1. Declarative statements from the admin team like that (that aren't from ability usage) run antithesis to what Mercs was supposed to be.

2. ...I honestly don't agree with that statement.

To me it's not a big deal because it's not in the battle write-up but I feel like biography stuff is completely unnecessary and should be completely blatantly tongue in cheek if done. Legitimate research on combat abilities should be the leader's job.

I actually really like the bios. Clearly not objective or a good substitute for research, but kinda nice if you need a quick at a glance overview of a character's role or capabilities

Yeah but in a future potential Mac vs Tifa match for example there wouldn't even be an argument anymore because tifa's leader could just link the character page in the match topic and say "look it's already confirmed Tifa would win GG"

I don't like that even being a possible scenario

But also still delete this topic I have no self-control and already hate that I still have opinions on stuff like this

FFDragon posted...

Yeah but in a future potential Mac vs Tifa match for example there wouldn't even be an argument anymore because tifa's leader could just link the character page in the match topic and say "look it's already confirmed Tifa would win GG"

Right that's why I think the onus should be on the leader for any of this research

I think an even worse scenario would be like a bio that said Ken Masters was a master of the Black Arts and his Dragon Punch could summon dragons and having a leader buy him and argue it in a match since misinformation on abilities is absolutely something leaders/admins have done in the past (except replace Ken Masters with an actual obscure character)

FFDragon posted...

1. Declarative statements from the admin team like that (that aren't from ability usage) run antithesis to what Mercs was supposed to be.

2. ...I honestly don't agree with that statement.

Mac wins, deal with it.

Oh yeah I see what you are saying now Lopen, and I agree. Research and arguing are core Mercs tenets.

Eddv posted...

Mac wins, deal with it.

you are preaching to the choir bruh

What if Mac is as he appeared in super smash bros ultimate huh

Lopen posted...

To me it's not a big deal because it's not in the battle write-up but I feel like biography stuff is completely unnecessary and should be completely blatantly tongue in cheek if done. Legitimate research on combat abilities should be the leader's job.

I completely agree with this, but don't concur that the bios are a replacement for this at all. They're a very very shortform explanation of what the admins feel the character could do, presented in as favorable a light as we can manage (for every merc, with no exceptions) to entice leaders to look into them, and the reason they're here is, frankly, addressing an IRL concern. We are all older now, and have more life obligations, which means our playtime has, largely, gone down since Mercs' earlier days. On top of that, gaming is just much broader and expansive than ever before -- the idea that there was a game with really cool fighters everyone could miss was fairly alien ten years ago when everything went through Sony/Microsoft/Ninty curation, but PC gaming utterly exploded since then and the rise of the indie marketplace means we have far more games worth playing than ever before. As administrators, we have a duty as stewards of the game to ensure Mercenaries features the most famous and entertaining faces in gaming -- and part of that duty requires us to actually add new characters who've never before been seen. The bios are a way to give leaders just enough to work with that they may actually take the plunge and play/research new games and characters instead of sticking to only what they've already played coming into Mercs. The actual work of persuading people that a merc is worth their weight in GP is something that will be up to them, and require a far more persuasive sale than any bulletpoint list we make could ever manage.

I just feel like it is a glaring administrative weakness that is definitely going to influence results at some point.

And I thought the one and only thing every person from every iteration of Mercs agreed on was that direct admin influence in matches was the absolute worst

I just think if people want to buy it they'll put the research in. And if they don't they won't. Bios aren't really going to do anything but mislead or give people the wrong impressions in the worst case.

And you say "what about the best case?" well the best case there isn't really one. Like yes people wondering what a character does is sometimes a bad thing but sometimes that drives hype in the game itself when someone's excited to reveal all this cool stuff they found out about they character. I think you're actually removing some of the appeal of the game to some people when you do this.

I mean I guess you wanna say "we're too old for this shit now" and that may be true but then we're not too old to argue about if a character is gonna win some random fight scenario?

To me there are two ways to do this if you must do it

1. Go very very very general. Put some very very generic "category" tags. Like "melee attacks" or "supportive magic" or "ranged attacks" that are entirely based on what the character does. I would not even put anything about their role like "tank" because that colors perceptions.
2. Go very very ridiculous. Phrase everything like a pokedex entry and hype how this character is the absolute most incredible thing on earth. But it has to be so over the top that no one would consider taking it seriously in a battle argument or as a deciding reason to take a character-- basically just flavor but might have some vague truths people could look into.

I think the first option doesn't add enough and the second option adds more overhead than the benefit so I'd just scrap the section but if you've already got em all written for everyone then what can you do I guess.

At bare minimum you have to strip the purely opinionated and potentially misleading sections

I do have to disagree on that point. Bios create a point of intention for a mercenary, creating a basis that can then be exaggerated on, while giving a clear weak point in the intent of a bio. The amount of bias that a bio gives is honestly lesser than a very core mechanic of mercs, which would be "why are you arguing my 6/week loses to a 5/week?! If it were weaker, it'd be lower priced!" The admin bias exists simply in terms of basic game balancing; honestly, I feel the bios do work to mitigate this by creating a baseline expectation of abilities.

I also do not feel that the onus of a merc leader is research; that's freely available information, you should be able to know WHAT a guy does when you get them to at least some extent, especially when it might not be instantly obvious. I feel that the onus should be on the leader to be able to take that information and put it into an engaging, or at least amusing, argument on why their stupid toys should beat up other stupid toys. Every model is built with some level of intention, be it buffing up a singular target, having one cool thing they do that makes them a 4/week but the rest of their kit is lacking so they have a stronger ability web to make up for it, etc. Being able to state that intent is very important, and we've seen a lot of competitive games go this route in explaining their philosophies behind, say, how fighting game characters work and what buffs and nerfs are being applied to better lean into that.

I do agree that direct comparison to other mercs not from the same series shouldn't be done. But I think, at minimum, this is a net neutral proposition, as this expectations of what a merc can do are already built in to their pricing, it's just making those factors transparent. And at the very least, bios woulda been of significant stress relief to me back in the day.

To build on the above, on that note, this is absolutely good feedback and we do welcome it. Part of why we did this showmatch rather than launching straight into accepting applicants was precisely to catch possible flaws and kinks with the system. We can certainly edit Tifa's bio to remove the comparison, for example (I will say that by contrast, Gael's note of 'having a sick terrain was a selling point of Tidus in a previous mercenaries game' is probably more fair -- that's less admin bias and more a matter of historic record, which I think is a reasonable thing for admins to remark on). We're not adverse to iterating on our gameplay elements! God knows running this game is a very difficult task and mistakes will happen. Having extra eyes on our creations will always help them come out that extra bit crisper and nicer.

So then are you using bios to warp people into a "Mercs version" of themselves that you expect people to follow?

I don't see why you'd need to set intentions otherwise.

I say that because of things like saying Leon prefers close combat just because he has CQC training when all of his demonstrable feats outside of the RE4 knife fight are projectile based.

It just seems weird to lean into that part of his skillset when he's just as known for akimbo theatrics, for example.

But I know I'm annoying and maybe if you get a whole new crew it won't matter. I'm going to attempt to ignore these as much as possible, no promises though.

There are a lot of reasons a merc can be upkeeped as they are (abilities, release time, interaction with mechanics) and arguing vs higher upkeep is a mercs standard.

Honestly an "intention" mindset seems bad but I don't really want to go into those weeds and I'll assume I misunderstood for now as it's a distraction from the point I was making.

But I think you missed the point I was making. For obscure people who actually need the bio you're removing some of the appeal of buying those characters for some people. Some merc leaders LIKE digging for obscure feats and such and want to find bargains. Tom likes it but look at her teams over the years she isn't buying random dude who needs a bio anyway.

Related fun fact the only reason I didn't lobby to make Mac 2/week in m4 is because 1 fits his underdog persona better.

FFDragon posted...

I say that because of things like saying Leon prefers close combat just because he has CQC training when all of his demonstrable feats outside of the RE4 knife fight are projectile based.

It just seems weird to lean into that part of his skillset when he's just as known for akimbo theatrics, for example.

But I know I'm annoying and maybe if you get a whole new crew it won't matter. I'm going to attempt to ignore these as much as possible, no promises though.

So of course you know RE better than anyone else here (I think), but when we crafted that particular bio, several instances came to mind:

-The knifefight with Krauser, obv
-His showdown with Chris when the latter tries to kill Ada in RE6, which is mostly martial arts instead of shooting
-The scene where he fights a zombie horde in RE: Vendetta, where rather than trying to keep distance he CQCs the zombos multiple times throughout

Basically the emphasis there was to lean on what makes Leon unique, compared to say, Revolver Ocelot, just to name another low tier gunner. He's a much more complete battle package who wouldn't get folded like a lawn chair by your average 3/week melee closing in on him immediately, whereas the same can't be said about other firearms specialists in his upkeep bracket. If you feel his bio could use some more hype on his marksmanship skills, though, that's definitely something to keep in mind. Things like his RE: Degeneration feats were under consideration when building the bio and only left aside to avoid bloating it too much.

Right those things do exist, but there's a difference between saying he's proficient in CQC and saying he prefers close combat situations and emphasizing that specifically.

The latter creates an expectation of how he should be argued, if your bios are to be used as you say and someone buys him without prior knowledge.

Like if nothing else I think keeping them completely factual with primary in game sources is an attainable goal

Replace Tifa's little Mac quip with someone she actually beats in her games 1v1.
Replace Leon's preference for melee with proficiency with melee as ffd said and cite the Krauser fight.