Current Events > Does Pokemon promote dog fighting

(+) Yeah! (+)

A friend wants to know

Nah

Arcanine vs. Houndoom, and Stoutland takes the winner

Sure

https://games.peta.org/pokemon-black-and-white-parody/

It's complicated. GameFreak and the series in general has tried to distance themselves from that accusation, it's a real lore thing that Pokmon want to fight you because they're jealous of domesticated Pokmon and Pokmon like fighting in general, they don't actually get hurt during battles and they just get exhausted.

On the other hand even people who worked on the series have accused Pokmon of that. The late Takeshi Shudo, the headwriter of the original anime, said on his blog that Pokmon is a series about enslaving animals. At one point he calls Ash a hypocrite for saying he loves his Pokmon yet he has them fighting for his entertainment.

It gets even more complicated because Satoshi Tajiri, the man who created Pokmon, admits in his biography that the angles Pokmon fights are drawn in come from him imagining Pokemon fights as two dog owners allowing their dogs to fight.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/6/4/AARO5TAAEJIM.jpg
This two panels come from right after Tajiri tells Ken Sugimori that Pokemon are creatures like cats and dogs. Tajiri clearly views Pokemon as creatures that are like cats and dogs in the real world, not only does he reinforce this view in his biography but he was also saying that even back in 1995. Books released by GameFreak during that era describe Pokemon as creatures that are friends to humans like cats and dogs and Tajiri personally wrote that Pokemon are Kaiju-like pets in a book on game design he wrote in 1995.

On top of that the series makes a very concentrated effort to build Pokemon to be like cats and dogs. Many interactions with the player mirror that of real interactions people have with their pets like playing fetch, petting them, washing them and Pokemon toys even resemble real world pet toys. Even the Pokemon behave like pets. HGSS had all Pokemon barking, nibbling on grass and even chewing on their trainer's shoes.
https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=210589
Scarlet and Violet have pokemon running in circles around the player while being happy which is something real life cats and dogs do, and Pokemon randomly fall asleep on the floor when let out of their pokeball, they essentially act like dogs.

So it's not very cut and dry. While GameFreak has tried to not portray it that way it's also hard not to see it that way especially with the way they portray pokemon. I don't think it promotes it, kids aren't going to make their pet dogs fight me thinks, but it's difficult not to think of it that way.

Proto_Spark posted...

https://games.peta.org/pokemon-black-and-white-parody/

wtf

Proto_Spark posted...

https://games.peta.org/pokemon-black-and-white-parody/

Wow! Never saw Pokemon from that perspective.
Trashing all my Pokemon games later.

RISEofCHRISTIAN posted...

Wow! Never saw Pokemon from that perspective.
Trashing all my Pokemon games later.

Give them to me

Piplup_Sniper posted...

It's complicated. GameFreak and the series in general has tried to distance themselves from that accusation, it's a real lore thing that Pokmon want to fight you because they're jealous of domesticated Pokmon and Pokmon like fighting in general, they don't actually get hurt during battles and they just get exhausted.

On the other hand even people who worked on the series have accused Pokmon of that. The late Takeshi Shudo, the headwriter of the original anime, said on his blog that Pokmon is a series about enslaving animals. At one point he calls Ash a hypocrite for saying he loves his Pokmon yet he has them fighting for his entertainment.

It gets even more complicated because Satoshi Tajiri, the man who created Pokmon, admits in his biography that the angles Pokmon fights are drawn in come from him imagining Pokemon fights as two dog owners allowing their dogs to fight.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/6/4/AARO5TAAEJIM.jpg
This two panels come from right after Tajiri tells Ken Sugimori that Pokemon are creatures like cats and dogs. Tajiri clearly views Pokemon as creatures that are like cats and dogs in the real world, not only does he reinforce this view in his biography but he was also saying that even back in 1995. Books released by GameFreak during that era describe Pokemon as creatures that are friends to humans like cats and dogs and Tajiri personally wrote that Pokemon are Kaiju-like pets in a book on game design he wrote in 1995.

On top of that the series makes a very concentrated effort to build Pokemon to be like cats and dogs. Many interactions with the player mirror that of real interactions people have with their pets like playing fetch, petting them, washing them and Pokemon toys even resemble real world pet toys. Even the Pokemon behave like pets. HGSS had all Pokemon barking, nibbling on grass and even chewing on their trainer's shoes.
https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=210589
Scarlet and Violet have pokemon running in circles around the player while being happy which is something real life cats and dogs do, and Pokemon randomly fall asleep on the floor when let out of their pokeball, they essentially act like dogs.

So it's not very cut and dry. While GameFreak has tried to not portray it that way it's also hard not to see it that way especially with the way they portray pokemon. I don't think it promotes it, kids aren't going to make their pet dogs fight me thinks, but it's difficult not to think of it that way.

This is the problem with someone unfamiliar with cultural aspects in Japan -- It's based on insect collecting, and one of the things they do when they collect insects (No, this isn't like butterfly collecting where they kill them), they keep them alive and well fed -- they even have cages specifically designed for this (Mushi Kago):

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/5/8/AASpaLAAEJiq.jpg

They also collect Horn Beetles, and they are popular for fights (and unlike Cock-fighting, etc...) Horn beetles just push each other off a log, and there's a minuscule chance of injury for the Horn Beetles during this, literally none they just fall off uninjured, basically, but it is an exciting battle to watch and often there is gambling done on it.

The problem with that it's that Tajiri never mentions any of that in his biography. My image comes from a translation of his manga biography Satoshi Tajiri, The Man Who Made Pokmon which makes it pretty clear his inspiration for the way Pokmon fights are presented are from him imagining Pokmon battles as pet fights, it comes right after Tajiri tells Sugimori that Pokmon are pets like cats and dogs
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/6/6/AARO5TAAEJiy.jpg
Bug catching was one of the inspirations, yes, but Tajiri also makes it clear in his biography, as well as earlier works from 1995 and 1996, that he also sees Pokmon as creatures that align with cats and dogs from the real world. The fact is that he himself reinforces the dog fighting angle on his own biography. And as I mentioned even the man who wrote the original anime, a Japanese man, also saw it as a form of animal abuse.

I remember that PETA parady back when Black and White came out. Pretty sure it used to be moddable, iirc.

Yeah, and the original anime director wanted the show to end with Pikachu leading a Pokemon uprising against the humans and having a brutal war between him and Ash. No matter how much corporate tries to white wash it Pokemon is glorifying horrific things like dog fighting, cock fighting and other animal abuses.

Buttt when you take a step back and look at the god like power a good chunk of these pokemon have and how the pokeballs humans use are not mind control devices of any sort and don't even keep restrained as it's shown both in the anime and the video games that the pokemon can leave their pokeballs at any time

Pokemon is a weird chaotic series full of contridictions,loose ideals and flimsy world building, no fucking wonder it's so popular and a money making giant, you could write countless stories in that world and all of them would be correct

They should explain the future paradox Pokmon as being replacements for more ethical Pokmon battles or something. I dunno, it really is a mess.

I wish we could have saw that original ending. Seems incredibly interesting. Obviously Planet of the Apes-like, but for a kids property.

Piplup_Sniper posted...

The problem with that it's that Tajiri never mentions any of that in his biography. My image comes from a translation of his manga biography Satoshi Tajiri, The Man Who Made Pokmon which makes it pretty clear his inspiration for the way Pokmon fights are presented are from him imagining Pokmon battles as pet fights, it comes right after Tajiri tells Sugimori that Pokmon are pets like cats and dogs
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/6/6/AARO5TAAEJiy.jpg
Bug catching was one of the inspirations, yes, but Tajiri also makes it clear in his biography, as well as earlier works from 1995 and 1996, that he also sees Pokmon as creatures that align with cats and dogs from the real world. The fact is that he himself reinforces the dog fighting angle on his own biography. And as I mentioned even the man who wrote the original anime, a Japanese man, also saw it as a form of animal abuse.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/4/2/AASpaLAAEJj-.jpg

I'm not disputing that bug catching was an inspiration for Pokmon. I'm very aware that Tajiri main inspiration for Pokmon was him spending his childhood capturing and taking care of bugs and other animals. What am I saying is that nowhere does it state that Tajiri used them for fighting nor that bug fighting was an inspiration for Pokmon fights.

While it's true Tajiri inspiration came from that Tajiri also viewed Pokmon as pets, as in a cat or a dog. The part of his biography where Ken Sugimori and Satoshi Tajiri discuss what Pokmon are and Tajiri telling Sugimori that Pokmon are like pets as in cat and in the following panels he imagines Pokmon fights as two dog owners allowing their dogs to fight, that's what the panels are showing. He even makes it clear here.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/6/1/AARO5TAAEJkR.jpg
Tajiri viewed, and probably still does, Pokmon as creatures that align with cats and dogs in the real world. For example here's something he wrote in a book in 1995.

Thats why I wanted to make a system where you take these kaiju-like pets Pokemon and raise them, and trade them freely over a Link Cable.

Source: https://lavacutcontent.com/satoshi -tajiri-new-game-design/

Also from a section from the 1996 Pokedex published by GameFreak.

More fearsome than a cat, more kind than kaiju, those are pokemon
People quickly think of Pokemon to be like Kaiju. There's a strong image of Kaiju being evil, but in this world there isn't such a thing. They're friends to humans like dogs and cats. Depending on the person who raises them they can be useful to humans or even intimidate their enemies.

While it's true Pokmon has a variety of inspirations, with insect collecting being important, there's no doubt that Tajiri also viewed Pokmon as creatures like cats and dogs and in his biography it's revealed he imagined Pokmon battles as two dog owners duking it out with their pets, not two bugs fighting each other.

And as I said the Pokmon series makes a concentrated effort to construct Pokmon to be like cats and dogs, not only in player-pokemon interactions, they even eat dog food in the anime, but also in the way they behave. An earlier example was how in HGSS Pokmon barked and chewed on shoes and grass when they followed the player which are behaviors people with pets are familiar with. Also forgot to mention but Oak tells the player in Red and Blue that people keep Pokmon as pets as well.

Well yeah, of course. That's the whole premise of the games lol.

They awkwardly tried to justify it in like Gen 5 by saying the pokemon actually like fighting but it was handled as sloppily as you'd expect.

Also from the interview you posted

TIME: So you were collecting Pokmon a long time ago! Did you make the insects fight against each other?
Tajiri: No, but sometimes they would eat each other.

Piplup_Sniper posted...

More fearsome than a cat, more kind than kaiju, those are pokemon
People quickly think of Pokemon to be like Kaiju. There's a strong image of Kaiju being evil, but in this world there isn't such a thing. They're friends to humans like dogs and cats. Depending on the person who raises them they can be useful to humans or even intimidate their enemies.

https://ultra.fandom.com/wiki/Capsule_Kaiju

"Capsule Kaiju ( Kapuseru Kaij) are monsters, aliens or Ultras that exist in a capsule most of the time, only to materialize when used by someone. They can understand commands of the user. They first appeared in Ultraseven and was used frequently by Dan to fight Kaiju when he could not transform into Ultraseven."

The battles are based on Kaiju fights, from Ultraseven (1967).

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/8/5/3/AAPa_qAAEJlt.jpg

Test time, does looking these pokemon arouse you?

I don't think I ever found a Pokemon even slightly arousing. Not even the typical ones like Gardevoir.

tremain07 posted...

Yeah, and the original anime director wanted the show to end with Pikachu leading a Pokemon uprising against the humans and having a brutal war between him and Ash. No matter how much corporate tries to white wash it Pokemon is glorifying horrific things like dog fighting, cock fighting and other animal abuses.

Buttt when you take a step back and look at the god like power a good chunk of these pokemon have and how the pokeballs humans use are not mind control devices of any sort and don't even keep restrained as it's shown both in the anime and the video games that the pokemon can leave their pokeballs at any time

Pokemon is a weird chaotic series full of contridictions,loose ideals and flimsy world building, no fucking wonder it's so popular and a money making giant, you could write countless stories in that world and all of them would be correct

Yeah sometimes you just don't wanna think too hard on the lore for some of these IP's. Most of them wouldn't be able to hold up to the scrutiny.

Forget Arcanine. CE doesn't stand a chance against this Pokemon.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/6/5/AAS1rFAAEJpB.jpg

As popular as Pokemon is, has dog fighting become such an increasing epidemic in the last few decades that it is reasonable to start pointing fingers at something for possibly encouraging it?

Michael_Booth posted...

https://ultra.fandom.com/wiki/Capsule_Kaiju

"Capsule Kaiju ( Kapuseru Kaij) are monsters, aliens or Ultras that exist in a capsule most of the time, only to materialize when used by someone. They can understand commands of the user. They first appeared in Ultraseven and was used frequently by Dan to fight Kaiju when he could not transform into Ultraseven."

The battles are based on Kaiju fights, from Ultraseven (1967).

I still fail to see what point you're trying to make. I never denied other inspirations for the concept of Pokemon. My main point was that the series creator admitted in his biography that he was inspired by imaging Pokemon battles as dog fights when trying to figure which angles to draw them and second that the way Pokemon portrays Pokemon plays into it. Never did I say anything else, bringing up bug fighting culture in Japan is irrelevant because it's never mentioned in any of our sources, in fact Tajiri chose the worst thing to say by admitting he was inspired by dog fighting, he has the balls to be honest about it when I'm sure he knows the accusations that are levied towards the Pokemon franchise. He could've said nothing but chose honesty instead.

I think I may need to elaborate a bit more in the points I'm trying to make so this might be a little long, but I believe I need to clear up what I'm saying. Ok so fair warning I may ramble on a bit.

https://i.imgur.com/NIQEzep.jpeg

Ok first into context. The panels here are when the Capsule Monster concept was shaping up into Pokemon. The first panels show Ken Sugimori drawing concept art of the Pokemon world to which Sathoshi Tajiri responds negatively towards them because to him Pokemon and humans are friends. We don't see these scenes but based off Sugimori's dialogue and Tajiri's reaction it's likely that Sugimori was drawing Pokemon as creatures closer to traditional monsters you see in RPGs, that it aggressive, violent creatures. Sugimori responds to this by asking Tajiri since they're monsters shouldn't they look scary and be intimidating to which Tajiri starts thinking about that before reaching the conclusion that Pokemon are more like pets as in like cats and dogs.

In the following three panels Tajiri imagines Pokemon fights as two dog owners allowing their dogs to fight, he tells the graphic designers to imagine this when asked which angle Pokemon battles should be drawn in.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/9/5/AARO5TAAEJxT.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/9/6/AARO5TAAEJxU.png
Like you're walking your dog, or your Pokemon in this case, and you come another pet owner, or Pokemon trainer, and you allow your pets to duke it out. This is what I meant, this is what Tajiri himself explains in his own biography. Not once does he talk about bug fighting as a source of inspiration. Capsule Monsters already had fighting in it, and it's not until he re-wrote the script of Red and Blue that his childhood inspiration comes to the forefront, prior to that he sprinkles inspiration from it here and there according to his biography. So, while bug catching, games he played as a teenager and Ultraman were also big inspirations there's no denying that he also thinks of Pokemon as pets that are closer to cats and dogs. This distinction is important because he binds Pokemon to familiar creatures in the real world, for example Digimon also has its roots in v-pets like Tamagotchi, it originally was convieved as Tamagotchi for boys, but Digimon are digitial, otherworldly and aren't tied to being like cats and dogs hence why people don't leverage the dog fighting insult towards Digimon.

It's really important to note, as I did in previous post, how Pokemon tries to construct Pokemon to be like cats and dogs. This isn't just something Tajiri threw out, it's something the series actively tries to keep true to. Like pretty much every Pokemon shown eating dog food in the anime with exceptions to some like Magnemite and Melmatal, and in this case it still eats out of a doggy bowl, according to Takeshi Shudo, the original headwriter of the anime, it was decided among the anime staff that Pokemon would eat berries and Pokemon food, which is identical to dry dog food in the real world, before production. I would also point out examples within the games with real world examples. I mentioned HeartGold and SoulSilver and how Pokemon did cat and dog things, and I should stress again that this were universal Pokemon behaviors:
-(______) looked off into the distance and barked!
-(______) is playfully nibbling at the ground.
-(______) is gnawing at the ice
-(______) is sniffing at the floor
-(______) chewed on your feet, Scold it? (YES) your pokemon seems to be a bit dispondant...
--------------------------------------------(NO) (-_-) Your pokemon ate something that tasted bad and is trying to spit it out!
-(______) is chewing on your shoes! Scold it? Yes/No YES = Your pokemon is grinding it's teeth in remorse!
----------------------------------------------------NO = Your pokemon started chewing on the other shoe!
-(______) is staring at the persian statue and howling
-Oh! (______) has a scrap of paper in its mouth! Get angry?/ Oh! (______) has the cord in its mouth! Get angry? (Bills old house) (YES) (!) Your pokemon opened its mouth and the scrap of paper fell out
-------------------------------------------------------------------(NO) (!) Ack! It seems to have something caught in its throat... It keeps spitting.

There's probably some that I missed but all these behaviors parallel that of cats and dogs in the real world, this are behaviors every Pokemon performed when it follows you in HGSS. When GameFreak started to develop more player and pokemon interactions in the games it's clear they're making a parallel to owners and pets in the real world, the above displays the ways Pokemon parallel real dogs and cats in the way they act and it's something they're still building up on.

In Scarlet and Violet this is still very much the case. Every Pokemon gets "zoomies" in that game.
https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=pokemon%20zoomies&src=typed_query&f=video
Which a real behavior displayed by cats and dogs, here's a YouTube video showcasing it for comparsion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYPJZawVbvM&ab_channel=WaggleTV
On top of that Pokemon "bark" at you with their cries and they also randomly fall asleep on the floor much like a real pet would. Not only that but you bathe your Pokemon the same way people in the real world bathe their pets and Pokemon even dry themselves just like real cats and dogs do.

Pokemon amie was pretty much that too. Petting, feeding and taking care of your Pokemon as a pet. Sword and Shield had you playing fetch with your Pokemon, again I will show video parallels to really drive this point home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDOFtrTpy0c&ab_channel=RielPlaysGames
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yxRs-7ffz0&t=6s&ab_channel=HafwennaDalmatians
To add to this it should be added that Pokemon toys in that game are modeled after real pet toys, the toy you use to get the attention of Pokemon is modeled after a real cat toy for example that serves the same function.

These are just some examples on how Pokemon constructs Pokemon to be like cats and dogs. This construction binds Pokemon with the concept of what a pet is in the real world and since the game is about capturing these living creatures that are innocent and cute, that are like cats and dogs in the real world, creatures that are basically magical pets, I feel like it plays a very big factor in the perception of Pokemon as a game seres about dog fighting. I'm running out of room so I might expand more in part 2. Maybe.

No