Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Mario, Crono and Aigis vs. Bowser, Mewtwo and DK

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah Mewtwo has never been a pokemon who solely relied on its own typing. If psychic attacks don't work he'll use something else, and most of his best options are midrange, not melee. I'm thinking about this one. There are persuasive arguments on both sides here.

I would point out this is pokken mewtwo with detective mewtwo feats not movie mewtwo

Okay so here's my thoughts. The first fifteen seconds are really important here because Aigis starts off out of commission for 15 seconds. I think Mewtwo survives the dual-tech (barely) and would be put in a very bad position because of it, since Recover would take multiple casts to get him back up to full health. Having used Mewtwo a lot in Colliseum... a Mewtwo who's stuck spamming Recover tends to be on the ropes and on his way out, because while he's tanky enough to survive one big nasty combo, he can't spam heal fast enough to get out of danger without a missed turn or two on his enemy's side.

Aigis also survives the initial onslaught, (probably in better condition than Mewtwo) but cannot patch herself up right away. She'll need Mario and Crono to cover for her. Which they will, because Mewtwo is stuck healing off the damage from the dual tech so as we kick things off it's Chrono and Mario Kong vs Bowser for a short stint. Not a fight Bowser is going to win, really. I think Bowser probably just straight up gets KO'd during the Cappy duration, that matchup is just doomed for him.

So then the heavies come back online, DK shakes the hat off, and it's Mewtwo and DK vs Aigis, Chrono, and it's-a-me, Mario! Aigis is programmed to go after DK... which does leave Mewtwo time to pick his shots.

I think given this, I gotta give it to Team 'Could Have Been Divine Judgement', aka Chrono/Aigis/Mario.

Mario and DK are basically equal-yet-opposing forces, but if Aigis is helping out then DK goes down. Either Chrono helps them or he tries to duel Mewtwo. In either case, Mewtwo can probably take out Chrono (or Mario) but not both, and since Aigis can heal... yeah. After that, I think Mewtwo and Aigis are fairly evenly matched across the board in terms of heals, shields, and offensive power... Whichever one has more allies is likely to prevail at the end. Close match, but those first 15 seconds tipped the scales towards Team Aigis and Mewtwo just can't make up the numbers disadvantage in the end.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

-Buffs will be minimal on both sides. Mewtwo gets off a couple probably, but Aigis' persona can act independently off her to Marakunda and disable his defensive boosts quickly

I think if Aigis is debuffing she's not doing much damage, and if she's not doing much damage, Mewtwo's not recovering, and if Mewtwo's not recovering, he's putting some big hurt on her.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Oh, also, one more note. Aigis can nullify psychic damage. Like, completely. Aigis reflector has that effect in Persona Q 2. So like, as long as Mario and Crono stay close to her, they can shoot and cast at Mewtwo and Mewtwo has to come in to do anything,

He's still got Hyper Beam, Focus Blast, Confuse Ray, and Swift if you want ranged non-Psychic options

aigis and mewtwo both gone at start of battle imo but i'd take mario and crono over dk and bowser even without the ability

holy fuck this mario build is actually insane, i think he could actually 1v3 this if he needed to

the wombo combo of lightning bolt + mega mushroom + super jump is honestly really good especially when mario gets into range for free with the cappy ability

So I do wanna prop Bowser up some here, because while he's getting (very rightly) disrespected, he's got some stuff. Check it.

https://youtu.be/xGLlaq5As0s

This is probably the most 'pure' Mario Vs Bowser duel you're gonna get - midgame, just Mario and Luigi Vs Bowser using I'd say about 60% of their respective Bowser's Inside Story arsenals. It takes the Mario Bros Double Team about five minutes to finish Bowser off when he's got no healing or backup, with Bowser specifically picking the fight because "see Mario, attack on sight". Of note is about 4:45 to show what Bowser's fire breath actually does when it's not just wimpy little fireballs. And to show that Bowser's actually willing to use his minion attacks mid-battle, like "50 fiery Goombas" or "let the Shy Guys slingshot me forward with a giant rubber band", which are funny and stupid attacks, but also Bowser starts with the high ground in this terrain and there's one entrance the enemy HAS to come out of, he's 100% meteoring himself at them. Jungle Japes has a lot of specific chokepoints with its tunnels, Bowser being able to block it up with his giant ass and fire makes a lot of his damage really inescapable. Do I think the DK possession screws this up? Absolutely, DK tosses Bowser around like nothing, but he doesn't KILL him. Bowser fell into the sun in Galaxy and then got up to whine that he lost as the universe imploded around him, and Bowser's accessories give him a little bit of healing every time he lands a physical hit. DK's able to break a giant evil obsidian egg by headbutting it repeatedly, but I don't see Mario cracking Bowser's shell within 15 seconds, especially considering he probably has to GET to DK since Bowser's 100% gonna be in his face faster than the big ape, on account of it's Bowser.

The one thing I did forget is that Aigis is dedicated on monitoring DK, which is... real bad. The moment she's prepared to snipe DK is a moment Mewtwo has open, and is one I didn't consider before. And if Mewtwo takes that moment to wipe Crono or prevent Mario from finishing off Bowser... that's real bad. I do think Aigis finishes off DK relatively quickly - he doesn't have anything to deal with that much precision at this range - but this essentially forces revives to be put into play immediately rather than in a war of attrition Vs Mewtwo.

I am leaning Team Mewtwo because I am seeing "there will be an opening", but damn this isn't a clean win for either side. Mewtwo striking down Crono early or Mario with a choice lightning to cover Aigis' moment of weakness clench it, but I don't buy that for either of them, at least not consistently.

An additional note re: Mewtwo is that he shouldnt be viewed as Detective Pikachu Mewtwo PLUS buffs.

I think it would be silly to assume Movie Mewtwo was not fully buffed himself if he was capable.

Kamekguy posted...

So I do wanna prop Bowser up some here, because while he's getting (very rightly) disrespected, he's got some stuff. Check it.

https://youtu.be/xGLlaq5As0s

This is probably the most 'pure' Mario Vs Bowser duel you're gonna get - midgame, just Mario and Luigi Vs Bowser using I'd say about 60% of their respective Bowser's Inside Story arsenals. It takes the Mario Bros Double Team about five minutes to finish Bowser off when he's got no healing or backup, with Bowser specifically picking the fight because "see Mario, attack on sight". Of note is about 4:45 to show what Bowser's fire breath actually does when it's not just wimpy little fireballs. And to show that Bowser's actually willing to use his minion attacks mid-battle, like "50 fiery Goombas" or "let the Shy Guys slingshot me forward with a giant rubber band", which are funny and stupid attacks, but also Bowser starts with the high ground in this terrain and there's one entrance the enemy HAS to come out of, he's 100% meteoring himself at them. Jungle Japes has a lot of specific chokepoints with its tunnels, Bowser being able to block it up with his giant ass and fire makes a lot of his damage really inescapable. Do I think the DK possession screws this up? Absolutely, DK tosses Bowser around like nothing, but he doesn't KILL him. Bowser fell into the sun in Galaxy and then got up to whine that he lost as the universe imploded around him, and Bowser's accessories give him a little bit of healing every time he lands a physical hit. DK's able to break a giant evil obsidian egg by headbutting it repeatedly, but I don't see Mario cracking Bowser's shell within 15 seconds, especially considering he probably has to GET to DK since Bowser's 100% gonna be in his face faster than the big ape, on account of it's Bowser.

The one thing I did forget is that Aigis is dedicated on monitoring DK, which is... real bad. The moment she's prepared to snipe DK is a moment Mewtwo has open, and is one I didn't consider before. And if Mewtwo takes that moment to wipe Crono or prevent Mario from finishing off Bowser... that's real bad. I do think Aigis finishes off DK relatively quickly - he doesn't have anything to deal with that much precision at this range - but this essentially forces revives to be put into play immediately rather than in a war of attrition Vs Mewtwo.

I am leaning Team Mewtwo because I am seeing "there will be an opening", but damn this isn't a clean win for either side. Mewtwo striking down Crono early or Mario with a choice lightning to cover Aigis' moment of weakness clench it, but I don't buy that for either of them, at least not consistently.

While I appreciate the argument that Aigis is distracted by DK, I dont think mercs magic actively screws Aigis over like that. The wording is will prioritize DK if possible. Given that Mario is cappying into DK, Aigis obviously ends up with her attention directed elsewhere as a result.

I kind of take the if possible to suggest shell take windows of opportunity if theyre presented. If its impossible to prioritize DK while already fighting Mewtwo, she wont/cant.

But if others interp differently I will have to live and learn!

Oh I 100% think that when Mario is cappying DK, she'll fight Mewtwo.

It's when he's OUT that gets me worried. Aigis is incredibly obsessive, the whole "I do not see the issue of standing in his room and watching him all night, he is my special boy I will monitor him" routine being kinda baked into her personality. As soon as she senses that her friend Mario has exited the giant ape, I do not know if she'll be able to constantly keep up Aegis Shielding to protect everyone. Like it's more a personality issue for me than it is mercs magic just based on the implication that she's in her stalker mode.

Had some sleep, watched Detective Pikachu, have formalized my thoughts.

-Mewtwo is VERY strong. Definitely the strongest merc in this match. My Mewtwo respect is quite high now.
-He's got some issues with close quarters attacks. I think the ranged war favors him and he'll win that, but if people can get in on Mewtwo, it'll take a moment for it to adjust and Psycho-Cut pests away. This is a problem because everyone on the enemy team is a capable melee combatant.
-Bowser gets stomped. Mario's items are devastating here, pushing him way past his normal leve. While he's Mega'd he's strong and tough enough to tank for his team, and after that the Slingers let him swap to a heavy fire support role.
-DK does better, and Crono is key for bringing him down. Luminaire being an all targeting attack in CT implies to me it has a wide range. It'll probably catch DK and Bowser both while Cappy is active and really mess em up, particularly with an opening Marakunda to soften up defenses. Good thing too because if him and Bowser got to do things unimpeded I think Crono goes down first with some difference.
-All three of JC's mercenaries are deeply necessary to bring Mewtwo down. 1v1, it'll win any engagement. Even 1v2 it can probably multitask to victory. Being attacked from three angles is too much though. Thanks to Mega Mario, Aigis and Crono have some time to heal, lay down buffs, and generally set up, letting them have a chance against the raidboss. Additionally, all three have potent desperation moves that can really ruin Mewtwo's day if allowed to pull them off (Mario having Mario Finale, Aigis having Heritage Liberator Palladion and her awakening supers, Crono having Burst Smite to work with Aigis). This means Mewtwo has to keep every single one of them in mind...and I think eventually it will slip.

This is not an easy fight, and I think it takes five, maybe ten minutes or possibly longer, but eventually, Team Crono pulls it off. Very very close match though.

Team Bowser

After mulling it over, the idea that this is a long match honestly works against it. My main thing is that if there's one thing I buy, it's Bowser's durability. His job is only to create lasting damage and AoE mayhem if he's in an advantage state; otherwise, dude is a pure tank, through and through, and he KNOWS Mario's power-ups. Hell, the guy USES Mario's power-ups. You think he doesn't know how long lightning lasts or how long he's gotta avoid the Mega Mushroom? His shell completely no-sells Thwomps landing on him, he's been flattened by his own castle before (albeit in critical condition, but even with the size difference, I don't see Mega Mario Vs Mini Bowser being 'the size of his castle' ), and he has a knack for surviving and making it to Phase 2.

And that's really what I need from this match-up; "does Bowser live long enough to give Mewtwo an opening?" Because I agree Mewtwo loses the 1v3 quite easily, and probably the 1v2 if it's Aigis and Crono. But I don't think it's Aigis and Crono, I think it's Aigis and Mario, and I respect the Mario Finale about as much as I respect Bowser's patience; 'not'. I do think if Aigis doesn't take out DK and solely focuses on Mewtwo? He doesn't get the opening necessary. But I think if she's monitoring him, she'll HAVE to take DK out, and that either lets Mewtwo save Bowser and stop him from getting totally bodied, or kill Crono and cause Aigis to really start burning through her magic resources. This is an OBNOXIOUSLY close battle, though.

It hurts me that DK is simultaneously the most and least relevant character to me, based entirely around "who kills him and when?"

Mewtwo

I feel there's too many things that aren't being answered in the arguments, like Bowser can just casually bugger off out of chrono/mario's effective combat range and fling hats and breathe fireballs for any negative time. And there's an obvious answer to the Aegis shielding. Disable it, which really messes with the defensive skills of Aigis.

Also I feel that the dual tech, although it would have been amazing if it was against zero healing, should have been set for a slightly lower bar in the situation, because there is a near zero chance that there will be enough resources available to use it in combat. I just feel that mind reading is too effective of an action to let mewtwo counter any abilities in the short term (like blocking lightning via mist, or swapping stats with mario when using the mega mushroom). I would have considered it better if it was actually usable in the situation.

Also there is the unknown factor existing in the situation, i'm not sure if it'd happen, but if Mewtwo goes Synergy Burst that will be 12 second of mega mewtwo-x mode of beatdown.

Add that to the arguments both for and against both sides.

To be fair, I don't think Bowser casually does ANYTHING against Mario. I do think he plays defensively when he realizes "oh, THIS is what he's up to, VERY fair, Mario", but I think Bowser is absolutely aggro here.

I'd actually wonder about Aegis Shielding being disabled. It's more of a passive that she's focusing on, like a Pokemon Ability. Falls in a weird grey area where I would lean Mewtwo couldn't disable it (as he couldn't disable, say, Shedinja's Wonder Guard or Xatu's Magic Bounce), but I wouldn't be against either interpretation.

Bear in mind Mewtwo cant just disable everything he sees. If hes already chosen to disable something else, he cant disable Aegis Shielding. Mewtwo is clever but I dont think he specifically disables Aegis Shielding.

Team Aigis

Dear lord this is a close shave

If Mewtwo is dead, Mario's team wins in a walk regardless of anything

If Mewtwo is alive he full heals with recover, match is more interesting but good golly Mario with Lightning Bolt + Mushroom seems ready to explode some fools. I also think his team just seems overall stronger not to mention DK with the possessed sneak attack would do huge damage. Does Donkey Kong punching Mewtwo out of nowhere get type advantage I feel like it does.

Honestly though I just feel like that dual tech looks really strong and while Mewtwo isnt frail I dont think he survives it. Thank you to JC I would not have cared to look up what that IK looked like.

Team Mario

I think this is a much closer match than I anticipated.

As much as I just want to say only "Team Crono" and leave, just for the awkward nostalgia, I am really struggling on this.

I begin to lean Mario's team because Mario's offense is just great and that dual-tech is an insane amount of FMV damage and spectacle to Mewtwo. The DK Takeover really helps make it a 3-2 for a bit before DK gets taken out as soon as Mario's done with him.

Then I look at Aigis really struggling to do anything for the first fifteen seconds with the double-whammy of damage and concussion symptoms. I don't see her healing herself in that time, yet I also don't see Team Mewtwo getting into that entranceway to fully take advantage with the way they were hit. For the most part, both teams did a good job at mitigating the other's surprise attack round. Both can heal up and both are the powerhouses of the fight. But Mewtwo will heal back and bounce back faster than Aigis. Aigis will be prioritizing DK when they meet so that's another time-frame where Aigis isn't necessarily going at her full strategic potential, being Taunted away.

As someone who owned Dan Hibiki back in the day, distracting an opponent's focus to one character is a huge point in my vote's favor, =P. And DK is a tanky gorilla. Hell, there's a lot of high health and heals on both sides. This match is not over in the first few minutes so even focusing down those times where Aigis/Mewtwo/Mario/DK are otherwise occupied isn't even close to the end of things.

Terrain doesn't really favor either side either. Yes, Kong can teleport, but I don't see it coming into play in a fight that's pretty much middle lane. Neither side has the numbers or specialists to try and jungle or flank around. Mewtwo's teleporting around and strafing, but they're in the fight not the outskirts.

And as strong as the Mega Mushroom and Thunderbolt are, they're also one-use. They're not 'need to save for the perfect moment' kind of things, but still, they can be survived in most scenarios and healed back up. It's definitely a war of attrition, of melting down PP/MP/SP/FP, and who lasts out.

I've still got an hour to vote and until Elimination Chamber. I'll keep waffling and looking at before-end arguments if they come. It's like 51%-49% in my head rn.

Mana you mentioned Aigis is distracted by DK when they meet but for the first 15 seconds she cant attack him because hes Mario, in which case as I described above she will help out with DK afterwards given the chance. But if it risks letting Mewtwo get a window on her, she wont do it (the whole if possible thing).

Mega_Mana posted...

As much as I just want to say only "Team Crono" and leave, just for the awkward nostalgia, I am really struggling on this.

I begin to lean Mario's team because Mario's offense is just great and that dual-tech is an insane amount of FMV damage and spectacle to Mewtwo. The DK Takeover really helps make it a 3-2 for a bit before DK gets taken out as soon as Mario's done with him.

Then I look at Aigis really struggling to do anything for the first fifteen seconds with the double-whammy of damage and concussion symptoms. I don't see her healing herself in that time, yet I also don't see Team Mewtwo getting into that entranceway to fully take advantage with the way they were hit. For the most part, both teams did a good job at mitigating the other's surprise attack round. Both can heal up and both are the powerhouses of the fight. But Mewtwo will heal back and bounce back faster than Aigis. Aigis will be prioritizing DK when they meet so that's another time-frame where Aigis isn't necessarily going at her full strategic potential, being Taunted away.

As someone who owned Dan Hibiki back in the day, distracting an opponent's focus to one character is a huge point in my vote's favor, =P. And DK is a tanky gorilla. Hell, there's a lot of high health and heals on both sides. This match is not over in the first few minutes so even focusing down those times where Aigis/Mewtwo/Mario/DK are otherwise occupied isn't even close to the end of things.

Terrain doesn't really favor either side either. Yes, Kong can teleport, but I don't see it coming into play in a fight that's pretty much middle lane. Neither side has the numbers or specialists to try and jungle or flank around. Mewtwo's teleporting around and strafing, but they're in the fight not the outskirts.

And as strong as the Mega Mushroom and Thunderbolt are, they're also one-use. They're not 'need to save for the perfect moment' kind of things, but still, they can be survived in most scenarios and healed back up. It's definitely a war of attrition, of melting down PP/MP/SP/FP, and who lasts out.

I've still got an hour to vote and until Elimination Chamber. I'll keep waffling and looking at before-end arguments if they come. It's like 51%-49% in my head rn.

Mewtwo's buffs don't wear off but aegis's teams need to be reapplied tbh

also in case anyone is still questioning the value of taking pokemon stats at face value with respect to mewtwo's durability

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/1/8/AAePZPAADg9K.jpg

I agree with the war of attrition tack. Something I think is worth noting, because this came up in chat and influenced my vote, is that Recover's PP got halved in Pokemon Let's Go Eevee/Pikachu. It's 10 uses, which sets it roughly equal to the uses you'd expect Aigis to get out of Diarahan. I think both sides are gonna bottom out their resources roughly equally unless you give credence to Aigis using the SP generation mechanics of P4 Ultimax to her advantage (which I'm not sure whether to respect or not myself). Oddly enough, the only guy who really can maintain his offense as the fight goes on...is Mario. Something that I didn't mention to this point is that in Sparks of Hope, Mario gets an ability called Hero Sight. If you've played XCOM, it's basically like multiple hits of always accurate Overwatch, with a damage doubling buff and guaranteed application of extra effects. In a battle where every bit of damage counts, I feel Mario's ability to keep track of Mewtwo and pump firepower downrange is super important. Everyone else is gonna run out of options (bullets, MP, PP, name it) but he won't. He really is the lynchpin of this fight imo.

Lopen posted...

If Mewtwo is dead, Mario's team wins in a walk regardless of anything

If Mewtwo is alive he full heals with recover, match is more interesting but good golly Mario with Lightning Bolt + Mushroom seems ready to explode some fools. I also think his team just seems overall stronger not to mention DK with the possessed sneak attack would do huge damage. Does Donkey Kong punching Mewtwo out of nowhere get type advantage I feel like it does.

Honestly though I just feel like that dual tech looks really strong and while Mewtwo isnt frail I dont think he survives it. Thank you to JC I would not have cared to look up what that IK looked like.

Team Mario

Lopen buying into my Sucker Punch lore i love it.

Eddv posted...

Lopen buying into my Sucker Punch lore i love it.

It's true

Being a gorilla DK also has a savage bite

Dude is oozing dark type

And. And. Cappy is a ghost which also has type advantage on mewtwo.

God this is even.

I... I think I'm settled. Team Mewtwo is the more exciting and dynamic competitor, but I think Team Crono just has enough extra juice to keep their team intact enough to eventually take down final survivor Mewtwo.

If DK shoots, it's gonna hurt