Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Mario, Crono and Aigis vs. Bowser, Mewtwo and DK

(+) Yeah! (+)

Mario, Crono and Aigis have challenged Bowser, Mewtwo and DK to a fight! Location of the fight: Jungle Japes - A series of caves and treetops nestled deep in Donkey Kong Island, as it appears in Donkey Kong 64. All enemies, NPCs, portals, bonus barrels, transformation crates, Cranky barrels and pads, and collectibles have been cleared out, and bananaporters are only able to be used by Kongs. All areas are open, access to the rest of the DK Isles is denied. Attackers begin at the level entrance while defenders begin in front of the hill containing the mine carts. Which side will win?

Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of executing a prearranged battle plan.
- Unless stated otherwise, characters have access to their full arsenal of abilities and equipment. They may not always work at full power, however (e.g. a petrifying spell may have only a partial hindering effect not seen in gameplay or even fail outright against sufficiently powerful mercenaries). Use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

- Bold your votes.
- You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
- Leaders cannot vote for their own teams, but they are free to argue their case.
- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
- This match will end in 24 hours.

Crono is as he appears in Chrono Trigger's latest version, with a set of full endgame equipment and access to all his techs. He may perform combination techs with his allies should the situation demand it.

Aigis is as she appears in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax with all of her moves available. Pallas Athena also has all of her skills and properties from Persona 3 and Persona Q2 available. She must actively focus to apply the effects of Aegis Shielding, but it will always trigger if she does so. She will always be aware of Donkey Kong's position, and prioritize taking him down if possible. She will start the battle being hit and knocked back by Donkey Kong's full power DK Punch, damaging her, as well as being hit by Mewtwo's Psychic attack, damaging her and temporarily overwhelming her brain, leaving her unable to remember her fighting style or how her weapons and spells work beyond a rudimentary level for the first 15 seconds of battle.

Mario is as he appears in the Super Mario Bros. series, with full access to all of his abilities seen therein. He has access to all of his Super Mario RPG abilities, a Mega Mushroom (which will turn him giant for 30 seconds, as seen in New Super Mario Bros.), a kart (plus one Banana Peel, Dash Mushroom, Lightning Bolt and Spiny Shell) and Dual Slingers with all associated skills and techniques, as seen in Mario + Rabbids: Sparks of Hope. He may use his Final Smashes from the Super Smash Bros. series if the appropriate circumstances arise without requiring a Smash Ball. Additionally, he is accompanied by Cappy, but may not Capture enemy mercenaries by default. He will Capture Donkey Kong when the two teams first meet, bringing him under his control for 15 seconds with full access to DK's abilities, able to use them as proficiently as he would. Upon his demise or the end of the effect's duration, Mario will spring out of Donkey Kong, landing in a nearby location unharmed.

~VS~

Bowser is as he appears in Mario & Luigi: Bowsers Inside Story, equipped with the Wicked Shell, Vampire Band, and Special Fangs X, though at his Super Mario Odyssey size. He may freely summon minions for Brawl Attacks, but only to perform the attacks, and cannot enlarge himself further or vacuum up abilities. He also has access to all abilities shown in Super Mario RPG, Super Mario Odyssey, and Super Mario 64, and may summon and use the Koopa Clown Car at will (though he only has one and it contains no minions or other weapons).

Donkey Kong is as he appears in Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, at Platinum Crest level. He also has access to his Mario + Rabbids: Donkey Kong Adventure skills and Golden Gyre, Smash Ultimate moveset, and his fully-upgraded coconut gun and 10 orange grenades from Donkey Kong 64.

Mewtwo is as it appears in Pokken Tournament, with all of its moves as well as those from Shadow Mewtwo in the same game, and is capable of a synergy burst on its own. It has all feats and powers demonstrated by Mewtwo in Detective Pikachu (both the game and film), aside from anything to do with swapping souls or consciousness, as well as its entire natural learnset from Pokemon: Lets Go Pikachu and Eevee and the move Psystrike. Teleport may only warp Mewtwo, and only to locations it has already seen in todays battle. He has been hit by Crono and Aigis' Burst Smite dual tech, the effects of which are up to interpretation but which will always be at least equal or greater than the sum of their Luminaire and Heritage Liberator Palladion's abilities.

I think this really comes down to Mewtwo v. Aigis, and I think Mewtwo wins that. Burst Smite is gonna suck, but I don't think it's gonna OHKO- Mewtwo's got pretty high SpDef and HP and both Luminaire and Palladion's attacks struggle to OHKO their respective bosses. Aigis is in a similar situation with being able to Diarahan off the DK Punch and Psychic, but the difference is the fifteen second brainfry. My team has a few extra seconds to set up, and I think they'll be able to make good use of that between DK's knowledge and ability to use the teleporters. Both aces have a good buff game, but Mewtwo's gonna have more time to get them up, as well.

The next big hurdle is Cappy on DK. If I'm lucky, DK has set up his own little gorilla warfare moment (he DOES have teleporters only he can use), and that'll minimize the damage done. If I'm not lucky, I think there's only so much he can do to Bowser in 15 seconds and Mewtwo won't let him get in range. That also takes Mario out of the equation for 15 seconds, so I'm picturing Crono and DK getting a quick doubleteam on Bowser while the aces do their thing. It'll suck but it's survivable, and the long game favors me I think.

I think Mewtwo and Aigis will be a war of attrition. Both have powerful heals, but I think Mewtwo can keep Recovering a lot longer than Aigis can keep Diarahaning- Diarahan is pretty expensive and SP isn't a strong suit of Aigis. I think Mewtwo's got her beat on damage output as well, which will help cover the difference between 50% Recover and 100% Diarahan. Its best attacks don't cost HP, either! Mewtwo's got maneuverability for sure, with high base Speed, Teleport, and maybe some flight.

The lowbies are roughly a push, IMO. Mario's beaten both of my guys, but usually by avoiding direct combat- he doesn't really wanna get in a straight fight without any axe bridges or rafters to help him. See also: the movie trailer with DK in it. I don't think the Kart is gonna help him on this jungle terrain, I don't think the Slingers will do great with all the cover (and if you disagree, I don't respect it more than the Coconut Gun anyway), and Mega Mushroom is temporary. Crono's also tough but my guys are real tanky. I'm not sure who wins that fight but I'm not sure they have much left to swing Mewtwo/Aigis anyway.

I think this is a tough fight, but I think the home field advantage, the extra 15 seconds from Psychic, and Mewtwo's sustain options will swing it despite Cappy.

I wrote all that up forgetting that Aigis was tracking DK. That probably doesn't end well for DK but that also probably means a free round or two of Psychic

JC's Argument:

Alright friends here goes mercenaries! I apologize for how long this argument is, gotta go big for the first match.

The Terrain I dont think Jungle Japes is particularly worth worrying about. Lots of moderately open spaces, a few more confined ones, but very big in that N64 platformer kind of way. Ideal for medium-short distance fighting, which is perfect for Aigis. Most importantly, Aigis can track the enemies through DK.

Anyways the match starts with several things happening. Just to be clear in case anyone thinks it is happening, Mario has not been mind controlled by Bowser because he is immune to negative effects from first party Nintendo characters. Anyways, the start of battles :

• Aigis is hit by Psychic and a DK Punch. She absolutely no-sells Psychic beyond its effect because steel types are resistant to psychic type attacks. Being frazzled doesnt matter because of the terrain. The DK Giant Punch also doesnt take her out. It wouldnt really matter either way because Crono has revive and would just revive her. She heals herself to full once she is unfrazzled.
• Mewtwo is hit by the devastatingly strong but devastatingly named Burst Smite, which is a combination of Heritage Liberator Palladion (composed by zts) and Luminaire. Here are clips of both moves, but obviously the dual tech looks different so I will try to describe my vision of it the best I can.

https://youtu.be/B3csqSb-9Mk?t=73

https://youtu.be/IrmDrlgTr3Y?t=130

• The move starts by Crono beginning to channel his light magic, a glow slowly expanding outward. Immediately in front of him, Aigis summons Palladion (P4U) who is imbued with a golden light. Palladion charges at Mewtwo, impaling them on her spear. She slowly arcs upwards towards the sky, leaving a golden trail. Aigis readies her Palladion Cannon, which is now imbued with the same golden light as Palladion. Lightning bolts fire from Cronos hands through a glittering gold effervescence into the back of the cannon as Aigis charges her shot.
• Aigis aims upwards and fires a tremendous bolt of golden light and lightning upwards at the sky at a sharp angle, maybe like 15 degrees short of vertical. In the distance, Palladion is now flying vertically into the clouds. Aigis shot pierces the clouds. The shot slowly curves down, the flight paths of Aigis shot and Palladion appearing to intersect shortly. Through the clouds you can faintly see the glowing arcs getting closer and closer and closer. They collide. The heavens cry out. What starts as a tiny flash grows into a big one, which emits a burst of lighting that clears the clouds. Through the lightning and dissolving mist, an incredible rainbow fractal effect is created and lingers as the lightning seemingly collapses into the middle, followed by a final explosion and burst of light.
• Sunbeams pierce the sky as the light clears and you can see Mewtwos body suspended by seemingly nothing at all in the middle of the prismacolor glow, and he falls to the ground gracefully, psychically, and dead.

I will address SCENARIOS depending on Mewtwos survival.

Scenario 1 Mewtwo is dead.

The most probable scenario, in all honesty. This dual tech is a combination of Aigis Instant Kill (which as per mercs magic would not have its instant kill effect, Im not that dirty) from P4U and Cronos strongest light magic. Its tremendously strong, and the person straight up gets impaled and then shot. Even if its viewed as a magical attack/summon kinda thing its still devastating.

This scenario is a bit of a rout. Aigis knows where DK is, Mario Cappies into DK when the teams meet, so its Aigis + Crono + DK (Mario) vs Bowser, and then DK remains vs. my whole team.

Scenario 2 Mewtwo isnt dead.

Ive saved more detail for this scenario despite my personal opinion being that it is unlikely. If Mewtwo doesnt survive, he has Recover and self-buffs. I have to admit that. Fortunately, Aigis has team-wide damage, evasion, and defense buffs. She also has a team-wide enemy defense debuff.

Aigis tracks the enemy team and as my team approaches, Mario prepares the Blue shell. When theyre at a safe distance, Mario releases it and my team leaps into action as it explodes on the enemies. It targets first place, so obviously it targets the strongest merc on the enemy team. It goes for Mewtwo. Mewtwo, DK, and Bowser are now scrambling because theyre either getting hit by or getting out of the way of the Blue Shell explosion. My team leaps into action in the panic and DK gets Cappied. Mario realistically goes for Bowser because obviously. I wont even try to pretend he goes after Mewtwo. So Bowser and DK are brawling, leaving Mewtwo all on his own. Mewtwo will struggle to keep up against a fully buffed Crono and Aigis tag teaming him, especially given that hes caught out by the Blue Shell and his inclination likely being to use psychic attacks on Aigis initially, which I must repeat, are 0.5x as effective against Steel types, aka Aigis implicitly.

If Mewtwo can survive even 15 seconds, his allies wont be able to come to his aid. Mario pops out of DK leaving Bowser to confusedly attack his ally. Mario pops out of DK leaving Bowser to confusedly attack his ally. While they untangle themselves, at his ability-designated safe distance Mario uses his Mega Mushroom and then the Lightning Bolt from Mario Kart, briefly causing all of his enemies to spin out, shrink, and move slower. Whether he physically crushes DK and Bowser or blasts them with his now-also-giant Dual Slingers, I trust his judgment, theyre toast to Mario alone. Mario proves that he is the true King of Nintendo.

Mewtwo being spun out, shrunk, and slowed also allows Crono and Aigis to deal the killing blow, thus concluding the match.

if you wanna play the Pokemon type chart game, I'd like to introduce you to Drain Punch, Focus Blast, and Fire Punch (and Thunder Punch for her Persona weakness!)

also Bowser's fire breath

also I think if we're under type chart rules, I think Mewtwo if anybody is smart enough to figure out how to deal with a robot

also I think a lot of that scenario is foiled by Mewtwo's Teleport- he can do a loooot of kiting that way, and probably dodge the blue shell as well

I don't think it's strictly Mewtwo vs. Aigis here -- that's some old thinking. Every player on this stage is relevant.

I feel like Mario possessing DK and him going ape on Mewtwo and Bowser for 15 seconds would kinda seal this one but Ill hold off on voting just yet

So I'm not a huge Pokemon guy. What buffs does Mewtwo have? I know Aigis has Marakunda to nerf defenses (physical and magical) and I think every type of persona 3 buff.

I will also say that I give the dual slingers wayyyyyy more respect than the coconut gun. They're laser pistols. Just, straight up laser pistols, no catches, no tricks, no funny dehypes, used to fight against a spooky cosmic horror. It gives Mario a massive firepower upgrade relative to his baseline, and makes him into an actual threat. I don't give Mario the time of day against Mewtwo normally, but laser guns are not jokes yo.

8:07 PM
Kanzaris
Y'know, I'm actually not sure what buffs and debuffs mewtwo has

gotchu
He's got Barrier, Miracle Eye, Disable, Confuse Ray, Mist, Amnesia, Agility, and Calm Mind.

Barrier is a big phys defense buff
Miracle Eye cancels evasion buffs on a target (and allows Dark types to be hit by Psychic)
Disable shuts down a move
Confuse Ray is 100% accuracy confusion
Mist shuts down stat debuffs for the team
Agility is a big Speed buff
Calm Mind buffs Special Attack AND Special Defense

tyvm, that helps a lot

notably Mist means there's a chance Mario's lightning bolt doesn't work here

Cappy capture is higkey relevant because it means there's a delay before Mario can go for the lightning bolt. Are 5 pokemon turns shorter or longer than 15 seconds, I wonder? It kinda matters here IMO because I think the lightning bolt blitz (hah hah) is the difference between a fast, decisive brawl and a brutal slugfest.

Aegis has no resistances in her game iirc which has a psychic equivalent so I will go based off that since for all I know aegis would be steel/fighting in pokemon lol.

Anyway mewtwo is fully buffed with calm mind and agility which I think are much better and longer lasting than the enemy team buffs (pokemon buffs just never go away - you can correct me - they increase his attack potency and speed by 300%) as well as barrier.

I think both aegis and mewtwo are fully healed by the time they meet up due to aegis healing and mewtwo recover.

Movie mewtwo feats plus gameplay buffs is pretty absurd on my respect levels. I also think the terrain works to mewtwo's advantage as he can weave in and out of the terrain and out of light of sight to his pleasure and just unleash attacks from out of nowhere.

I think it is more likely that mewtwo can send the blue shell back at Mario's team through telekinesis than it hits mewtwo fwiw

mewtwo and friends

I have always been on the high end of mewtwo respect though. I think movie feats and a terribly strong buff moveset make mewtwo incredibly dangerous unless outnumbered or hindered in some way.

Calm mind agility barrier is dumb tbh.

AriaOfBolo posted...

also I think if we're under type chart rules, I think Mewtwo if anybody is smart enough to figure out how to deal with a robot

I dont disagree he would figure it out eventually but I certainly think he starts with his core moves.

I think a huge challenge for Mewtwo is going to be the lightning Mario throws that completely weakens him for 2-3 seconds. Thats a huge window of opportunity to be jumped on.

I would also like to remind voters that Mewtwo really should be dead from the get-go. I am admittedly surprised by the lukewarm reaction here.

Chaeix posted...

I dont disagree he would figure it out eventually but I certainly think he starts with his core moves.

I think a huge challenge for Mewtwo is going to be the lightning Mario throws that completely weakens him for 2-3 seconds. Thats a huge window of opportunity to be jumped on.

I would also like to remind voters that Mewtwo really should be dead from the get-go. I am admittedly surprised by the lukewarm reaction here.

I'm pondering if Mewtwo is dead or not myself. Leaning yes because 'spear stab proton cannon paired with a magical nuclear explosion' is really dummy strong. If there's a multiplier on top he's very fucked

Movie Mewtwo is really, really strong, not sure if I but this dual tech being able to completely wipe him out... I also agree that Mario having his rabbids guns is a bigger deal than someone might first expect.

Chaeix posted...

I would also like to remind voters that Mewtwo really should be dead from the get-go. I am admittedly surprised by the lukewarm reaction here.

The IK doesn't look particularly stronger than a Hyper Beam, which Mewtwo can usually tank, and in my Chrono Trigger experience Luminaire is a bit overrated.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

I'm pondering if Mewtwo is dead or not myself. Leaning yes because 'spear stab proton cannon paired with a magical nuclear explosion' is really dummy strong. If there's a multiplier on top he's very fucked

I believe there is generally a multiplier but I dont know how strong.

A multiplier on something that is already generally an instant kill is going to be incredibly strong without Luminaire (I also think the fact Mewtwo is impaled by a Persona means something)

I have the opening move probably taking about 60-70% off mewtwo's health. But mewtwo is a pretty stout pokemon.

I think if this was in very small terrain mewtwo loses even with my level of respect.

The way I see it, Mewtwo taking this massive attack and Aigis having that weird amnesia thing happen disorients both teams in the beginning. But this terrain seems so big that both teams will have recovered from those effects before they meet

SirChris posted...

I have the opening move probably taking about 60-70% off mewtwo's health. But mewtwo is a pretty stout pokemon.

I think if this was in very small terrain mewtwo loses even with my level of respect.

Hes stout but hes not a tank. Hes not surviving two massive hits with a multiplier on them. I think thats a stretch.

And Chris, regarding your argument. A couple things. It sounds like you think Mewtwos preferred strategy is going to be weaving in and out of Battle. Given the Cappy situation, I think its fair to say that the end result is a 3v1 against Mewtwo. In that situation, Mewtwo ducking to rebuff and heal gives the same window to my team, which certainly has enough tools between the 3 of them to beat Mewtwo alone.

I would also point out that even though Aigis isnt tracking Mewtwo, as per P4U she can still detect enemies who she cant see using some kind of radar or scanning. In P4U she picks up on 2 intruders in a part of the plane she wasnt in, and picked up they were carrying mock guns. Even with Teleport, Mewtwo is going to have a much harder time getting a pre-emptive attack on Aigis than you might think.

GANON1025 posted...

The way I see it, Mewtwo taking this massive attack and Aigis having that weird amnesia thing happen disorients both teams in the beginning. But this terrain seems so big that both teams will have recovered from those effects before they meet

Echoing this. I think people forget that crono's magic attack isn't that great. It would be like using thunder on a dragonite. It will be useful for type coverage but its a physical attacker!

Chaeix posted...

Hes stout but hes not a tank. Hes not surviving two massive hits with a multiplier on them. I think thats a stretch.

And Chris, regarding your argument. A couple things. It sounds like you think Mewtwos preferred strategy is going to be weaving in and out of Battle. Given the Cappy situation, I think its fair to say that the end result is a 3v1 against Mewtwo. In that situation, Mewtwo ducking to rebuff and heal gives the same window to my team, which certainly has enough tools between the 3 of them to beat Mewtwo alone.

I would also point out that even though Aigis isnt tracking Mewtwo, as per P4U she can still detect enemies who she cant see using some kind of radar or scanning. In P4U she picks up on 2 intruders carrying mock guns from a distance. Even with Teleport, Mewtwo is going to have a much harder time getting a pre-emptive attack on Aigis than you might think.

He isn't a tank but he takes about 25-30% from a dragonite thunder which is about what I respect from crono here.

Actually if I give everyone max evs assuming they are a game mechanic dragonite does closer to 20-25% with a thunder. His special attack is about 300 which is actually pretty good and imo maybe giving crono more respect than he deserves. But I will say what crono lacks in magic maybe luminaire itself is more potent than thunder so we can split the difference c

Also what are aegis speed feats you want to display? Movie mewtwo outsped a car trying to get away from him on an open highway casually without agility.

Chaeix posted...

Mewtwo ducking to rebuff

off the top of my head I don't think any of Mewtwo's buffs wear off, whereas Aigis' do.

and if it DOES come down to a 3v1, I think Confuse Ray on Aigis is gonna be a bad time for your side. Swift also has some AoE.

Buffs in Pokemon don't wear off unless the Pokemon is switched out (and I don't know how that would work here). Legends: Arceus is an exception, but Mewtwo isn't in that game anyway.

SirChris posted...

He isn't a tank but he takes about 25-30% from a dragonite thunder which is about what I respect from crono here.

Also what are aegis speed feats you want to display? Movie mewtwo outsped a car trying to get away from him on an open highway casually without agility.

Even in that case, Aigis move couldnt do the remaining 70-75%? Shes certainly much stronger than Crono and using a MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger move.

I have to get ready for a party so I cant get you too much but:

https://youtu.be/gHMyW7Fr0y8

@2:38, timestamp didnt work on mobile. Note that video is I think mid-P3 and this is P4U Aigis.

She also has directional jets in her body to move around midair as per P4U.

I would highly recommend watching her P4U move set because its important to see how she fights with Palladion in tandem. Mewtwo has to deal with a second body being present just because of Aigis fighting style. See below:

https://youtu.be/-UlE9PS2oEI

Did they add Nuke and Psy to PQ2? If so, what's Aigis's resistance to Psy? I'm guessing neutral, but you never know.

Mewtwo59 posted...

Did they add Nuke and Psy to PQ2? If so, what's Aigis's resistance to Psy? I'm guessing neutral, but you never know.

Yes, and Aigis has Nuclear magic from it herself. Apparently it is neutral.

Chaeix posted...

Even in that case, Aigis move couldnt do the remaining 70-75%? Shes certainly much stronger than Crono and using a MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger move.

I have to get ready for a party so I cant get you too much but:

https://youtu.be/gHMyW7Fr0y8

@2:38, timestamp didnt work on mobile. Note that video is I think mid-P3 and this is P4U Aigis.

She also has directional jets in her body to move around midair as per P4U.

I would highly recommend watching her P4U move set because its important to see how she fights with Palladion in tandem. Mewtwo has to deal with a second body being present just because of Aigis fighting style. See below:

https://youtu.be/-UlE9PS2oEI

I personally don't think her attack has 4x the attack potency of Luminaire, but if others do fair enough.

Also she looks painfully slow in that cut scene compared to mewtwo I will say, but that's not an argument against the start of battle slap.

I love Persona and I respect Aegis a lot, and I think for most people her having two bodies to deal with is a pretty big deal I just think for mewtwo it isn't.

Basically I'll leave the topic be so the team leaders can argue, but here are my final thoughts:

I think it is a stretch that aegis/crono instakill mewtwo. I think of it as a cutscene fight where if you really, really want to high ball they could possibly do fatal damage if left unattended - but mewtwo then simply heals himself and it is done with. If you think he is dead then fair enough, but at least I bothered to break out the pokemon calculator LOL. 400+ HP and defenses in the high 200 are pretty good.

If Mewtwo lives, he has endless buffs of 3x speed, 3x attack potency, 3x to both defenses all the while still being able to heal himself and I think that's death for the enemy team as in the movie he was shown to be able to block lightning bolts/projectiles with his own powers so I just don't think anything he can see is ever hitting him.

Won't make you argue with me further though, good luck JC!

Yeah I don't buy Mewtwo getting the jump on Aigis. Her reaction times are inhuman. In that scene JC talks about she picks up on all these things and then in a split second knocks the two dudes out with thrown buttons from her clothes. I think Mewtwo's faster, but Aigis keeps up fine and he can't shake her off. It's going to be a very long and protracted slugfest for him and he can't afford that because Mario and Crono get a 2v1 (using DK's body! DK's got way good combat specs in Donkey Kong Jungle Beat) against Bowser and then have a very large matchup advantage against the two wounded beast boys.

I seriously can't stress enough how much stronger than whatever default most people think Mario has he is in this writeup, BTW. He's an actual, no-bullshit gunner who happens to have some nasty extra tricks on top. Not to say DK and Bowser don't have a significant glowup compared to what you'd see out of them last Mercs iteration, but Mario's is much, much larger. He could take on either one of Bowser or DK head-on and win without terrain gimmicks helping him. It's not a great situation for Mewtwo because he's gonna end up 1v3ing sooner than later and all three of his opponents can put out pressure on him. I think he beats Aigis solo (if you think he doesn't die to the dual tech), but she's not alone. Can Mewtwo prevent her from casting Samarecarm to full-rez Crono while getting shot at, for example, so Aigis can in turn be brought back up if she falls? It feels unlikely that he can get both Crono and Aigis down at the same time.

Also re: Aigis speed, this is a better showcase IMO:

https://gfycat.com/WhiteClearcutIrukandjijellyfish

Can we get some Det. Pikachu clips in here? Just to see what Mewtwo's really capable of. My ignorance of Pokemon is real and I want to research properly before committing to a vote.

in the movie doesnt he get surprised by pikachu jumping out a window at him (someone correct me if Im wrong pls)

im pretty sure in a 3(+persona) v 1, he can get taken by surprise midfight

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Also re: Aigis speed, this is a better showcase IMO:

https://gfycat.com/WhiteClearcutIrukandjijellyfish

Can we get some Det. Pikachu clips in here? Just to see what Mewtwo's really capable of. My ignorance of Pokemon is real and I want to research properly before committing to a vote.

One last thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCd_kKwU5PY

55 seconds in no idea how fast the car is moving but it looks pretty fast and mewtwo casually catches up to it in a matter of seconds

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Also re: Aigis speed, this is a better showcase IMO:

https://gfycat.com/WhiteClearcutIrukandjijellyfish

Can we get some Det. Pikachu clips in here? Just to see what Mewtwo's really capable of. My ignorance of Pokemon is real and I want to research properly before committing to a vote.

this is certainly a much better showcase

Yeah that car looks like it's doing 60 MPH and Mewtwo catches up quick. Probably like 100 MPH for his speed? Maybe a bit higher? So definitely one speedy boi for sure.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Yeah that car looks like it's doing 60 MPH and Mewtwo catches up quick. Probably like 100 MPH for his speed? Maybe a bit higher? So definitely one speedy boi for sure.

Yeah then throw up agility 3x and it's pretty nuts tbh

Also I just headcanoned a team meeting where they decide that Mewtwo psychically throws Bowser, while Bowser is in his shell, at the enemy team over and over like a yoyo killing them all.

I don't want this to be an argument the mental image made me giggle lol

Anyway since I had the Pokemon calculator open, here are Mewtwo's effective stats while fully buffed:

Special Attack: 1341
Speed: 1077
defense: 837
special defense: 837

Or, in Pokemon terms:

+6 252 SpA Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 219-258 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Registeel is, notably, a steel type that's resistant to psychic moves.

and has 400 defense, making it one of tankiest pokemon in the entire game by far, it is a legendary in its own right.

Mewtwo is casually two shotting it.

So... yeah. Mewtwo is either dead at start or he is fucking dropping NUKES.

Sorry I fell in love with the pokemon calculator xoxo

SirChris posted...

Yeah then throw up agility 3x and it's pretty nuts tbh

Also I just headcanoned a team meeting where they decide that Mewtwo psychically throws Bowser, while Bowser is in his shell, at the enemy team over and over like a yoyo killing them all.

I don't want this to be an argument the mental image made me giggle lol

A couple things here:

Pokemon Speed is an unreliable indicator because if you take it at face value its only move priority and it doesnt allow a Pokmon to use more moves. I dont think it translates well into the kind of straight full on everything combat speed buff in that sense.

Honestly I would argue that Mewtwo flying through the sky there is using agility. Though this isnt the anime, Agility in film/tv settings is consistent just moving fast.

Forget Pokemon type charts lets talk pokemon move name cheese!

SUCKER PUNCHes are this cats main weakness!

for me this boils down to scenario 1:

Mewtwo is dead
AIgis and co sweep DK especially since Cappy'd DK is gonna murderize bowser.

Scenario 2

Mewtwo is not dead and terrain MATTERS

Scenario 2 needs more thought from me.

Ok so I have now seen what Jungle Japes looks like.

Does Mewtwo stop and buff or does mewtwo rushdown Aigis after that sneak attack.

I think the rushdown is a major mistake because with Cappy on the loose, DK is gonna get a second sucker punch in and allow even Crono to really be able to fuck up the even momentarily distracted Mewtwo.

So lets for the sake of argument say Mewtwo does stop and buff, allowing Aigis to recover and heal and buff a little but not as much herself.

Mario seems like a hard counter to either of DK or Bowser depending on which way they pair off and I am happy to see it that way.

Honestly I think Crono's magic here is a big difference maker.

He has healing magic, and the fact that he acts as a force multiplier with Aigis with their ability to dual tech with Luminaire and Lightning magic comboing with her gunny stuff which has good synergy and work together beats the hell out of the much more clunky, and frankly unwilling on the part of the non-mewtwo partner given Mewtwo's version of teamwork is more like "using his team mates as weapons".

Yeah I think either the dual tech or cappy alone wouldnt be enough to convince me but together, I think Crono wins the day.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/489896289522155542/1076349681078128710/2023-02-17_19-48-04.mp4

For reference, Kamek was able to take some video of the team's starting points and path between them. The start is Team Mewtwo's starting point, the end is Team Crono's.

EDIT: You'll have to download the video to see it, but it's very small and I think it's worthwhile. This is a relatively cramped terrain. Not tiny, but teams will meet in at most 30 seconds once one side is on the move, likely less.

one of the most interesting calls for Mercs V is the inclusion of non-game media like Arcane and Detective Pikachu as examples. Mewtwo is a character that very heavily benefits from having a visual medium that isn't turn-based sprites.

Team Mewtwo didn't die

So here's my thinking at the moment:

-Mewtwo and Aigis both stay at their starting areas and get to heal off their ouchies.
-Aigis will likely try to press the advantage, because she is ALL ABOUT eliminating threats. Mario is capable of keeping up a little bit behind in his go-kart. Crono is... not. Mewtwo will likely get some buffs off before they meet.
-Mewtwo v Aigis is interesting as I do think Mewtwo solidly wins it, but I think Aigis is good enough at jumping around and dodging and I think her persona being activated via her inner systems/plume of dusk allows her to resist any sort of TK and get a good hit in. This is not to mention Aegis Shielding, which outright nulls psychic attacks if she's focusing on blocking with Pallas Athena. I think Mewtwo can develop counterplay pretty easy - Swift helps him chip things out especially, and he's capable of getting physical - but the thing is, I believe Aigis is a very annoying target for him to beat.
-Crono and Aigis have a solid lifeloop. I think that works once before Mewtwo Disables it.

My main focus right now is on Bowser. I don't think it's possible for him to win - he's fighting a Donkey Kong-fueled Mario and immediately after he's probably getting shrunken and has to avoid Giant Mario stomping on him. I also think Crono probably picks off a disoriented and likely shrunken DK (though not without a bit of effort). My question is mostly: just how much time does Bowser buy Mewtwo here? Mario Vs Bowser affairs have an obvious conclusion, but they're only fast if Bowser falls in a hole he makes for himself. Here, Bowser is on the backfoot constantly, but he KNOWS Mario's tricks. If he can hold out long enough for Mewtwo to figure out how to open Aigis like a tin can, I think he can clinch it for his team. He has nice tools for it - he's got passive healing on hit with his equipment, Terrorize and Poison Gas are great stall options, the Clown Car can let him run out the clock for a while and summon some minions for attacks - but there's no doubt that once Crono's done with DK, Bowser's time to live drastic go down.

Kamekguy posted...

-Crono and Aigis have a solid lifeloop. I think that works once before Mewtwo Disables it

It probably actually works twice, once for each combatant.

My thinking is that Mario vs Bowser is fast largely because of the shrink + grow combo. Bowser is used to getting outsped by Mario. He's not used to being severely outmuscled. In fact, he's liable to be very confused because, well...think back to NSMB Wii for example. He's always been the Goliath, not the David, if that makes any sense. That plus the dazing effect of the lightning bolt is a lot to deal with.

Here's how I see the match so far:

-Mewtwo survives. I came in thinking he was turbo dead but good arguing from Chris, Eddv and Kamek in discord has sold me on Pokemon having good scaling feats, and Mewtwo is one of the strongest pokemon around. He lives by a thread, but since he can heal himself that's all he needs. This isn't a demerit to the Burst Smite to be clear -- put say, Cloud Strife here and he's just fuckin donezo, he does not live thru it. But Mewtwo is much tankier than I thought.

-Mario is an absolute menace. I am the absolute biggest Mario stan on the planet, but it's not even his value directly that I think is so important here. It's DK. Look at the stuff he can do in the game his baseline comes from now: https://youtu.be/10qXU4DVED8?t=1709

Does that look familiar? Because I think that is precisely what Mario does to Bowser before his time runs out. Just mauls him really badly. Then tack on the lightning into mega shroom and yeah, Bowser's done and Mario and Crono can tag team DK before fighting the raidboss.

-I think I buy Mewtwo disabling the lifeloop. However, I think it's not needed beyond that. One try to find out Mewtwo is psy heavy is what really matters.

-Buffs will be minimal on both sides. Mewtwo gets off a couple probably, but Aigis' persona can act independently off her to Marakunda and disable his defensive boosts quickly. Offensive boosts stay, turning him into a menace, but one that has to legitimately 1v3 because of how nasty the counter matchup of the low tier mercs ends up being.

-The big question thus becomes, can Mewtwo kill off Aigis' lowbie support without exposing itself to her so that it can win the long game, before Mario powers up enough to drop a Mario Finale boosted dual tech with Crono on Mewtwo to help Aigis finish the match?

This is what I'm pondering right now. I'm leaning Team Aigis, overall, but I want to watch Detective Pikachu first just to make sure my vote is correct. This is an excellent match though, no two ways about it.

Oh, also, one more note. Aigis can nullify psychic damage. Like, completely. Aigis reflector has that effect in Persona Q 2. So like, as long as Mario and Crono stay close to her, they can shoot and cast at Mewtwo and Mewtwo has to come in to do anything, which doesn't favor it in a fight against three different people who have melee training, one of which is primarily a swordsman. Part of why I want to watch Det. Pikachu is to see if Mewtwo has good physical feats because they really matter for breaking through Aigis' defense.

Detective Pikachu Mewtwo used Shadow Ball for its main offense. Which is a Ghost type move. If anything, I'd say that converts to Curse, which Aegis Shielding doesn't protect against.

That actually helps a lot to know -- so Mewtwo does have ways to 'break the siege', as it were that don't involve having it get close. That's big for it!