Current Events > Isn't odd how we are asked to venerate slavers

(+) Yeah! (+)

I was thinking about how many presidents and founders were slavers or just horrible people. But people are asked to over look that stuff . Like if I was running for office and said something like Washington was horrible. I would lose so many votes. But he was literally a slaver. Jefferson kept his one kids as slaves. Isn't that fucking wild.

But tell me again how America isn't founded on and inextricably tied to racism.

Judging people that lived hundreds of years ago by todays standards isnt very reasonable.

Yeah, but what about the bad stuff now

whitelytning posted...

Judging people that lived hundreds of years ago by todays standards isnt very reasonable.

It was still bad then.

Most of the first Presidents were southerners, so it's not surprising. This is something that hasn't changed even today, southerners being more prone to being racist.

whitelytning posted...

Judging people that lived hundreds of years ago by todays standards isnt very reasonable.

No it was still bad then. Fucking Jefferson himself said how horrible it was. Ask the slaves who were trying to escape at the time how bad it was.

If your platform is that Washington was horrible then you not getting any votes is not because he's bad, but because it's not a relevant issue today to campaign on

Cant wait to see what humans talking about hundreds of years from now that is happening today, never mind I dont have a Time Machine

R1masher posted...

Cant wait to see what humans talking about hundreds of years from now that is happening today, never mind I dont have a Time Machine

Can we use that logic with the Nazis and their actions?

whitelytning posted...

Judging people that lived hundreds of years ago by todays standards isnt very reasonable.

It was morally reprehensible then. Even in their society.

nice try tho

R1masher posted...

Cant wait to see what humans talking about hundreds of years from now that is happening today, never mind I dont have a Time Machine

people were talking about how terrible slavery was hundreds of years ago, though.

cjsdowg posted...

Can we use that logic with the Nazis and their actions?

you can use that logic for whatever you want I guess, like vegan diets or ass implants

It's about what they created. I don't think it's a controversial take in modern day to point out that the founding fathers had some really terrible habits, so it's not like you're revealing some sort of great secret to history by pointing it out.

The actual question is to what extent we should reject their ideas on the basis that other parts of their lives were less than savory. And by that standard, is there any person in history that wouldn't be rejected?

Gritty posted...

It was morally reprehensible then. Even in their society.

nice try tho

And calling homosexual people the f word was morally reprehensible back in 1990. Doesn't change that there were far more people okay with it at the time. What society considers acceptable isn't always limited by morals.

Of course, this topic in itself is stupid. No one's telling anyone to completely overlook what America's history was like (no one worth listening to, anyway).

George Washington was progressive for his time.

AldousIsDead posted...

But tell me again how America isn't founded on and inextricably tied to racism.

I can deal with that part of it. History is loaded with lessons that need to be remembered.

What I can't deal with is the amount of motherfuckers nowadays either bold facedly denying it, or trying to convince me that our subjugation of America and it's native people was a "good thing" for those people.

Its like yeah, I'm sure the native Americans are loving it on their reservations. That's why the alcoholism rates are so high there, right?

KeeperOfShadows posted...

And calling homosexual people the f word was morally reprehensible back in 1990. Doesn't change that there were far more people okay with it at the time. What society considers acceptable isn't always limited by morals.

I was a child of the 80's and 90's. The f-word for gay people was commonplace, and so was the r-word for mentally challenged people. I used the second one quite a bit back then.

But guess what? Now it has been completely removed from my lexicon because it's no longer socially acceptable. That was an easy choice to make, and I don't miss it.

The problem is that there are waaaaaaaaay too many people walking around that want to use all the slurs, because they lived in a time where they were commonplace, but they don't want to change with the times.

Well, too fucking bad, because
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxY89F5oU-I&pp=ygUUZ2Fycm9zaCB0aW1lcyBjaGFuZ2U%3D

mybbqrules posted...

I was a child of the 80's and 90's. The f-word for gay people was commonplace, and so was the r-word for mentally challenged people. I used the second one quite a bit back then.

But guess what? Now it has been completely removed from my lexicon because it's no longer socially acceptable. That was an easy choice to make, and I don't miss it.

The problem is that there are waaaaaaaaay too many people walking around that want to use all the slurs, because they lived in a time where they were commonplace, but they don't want to change with the times.

Well, too fucking bad, because
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxY89F5oU-I&pp=ygUUZ2Fycm9zaCB0aW1lcyBjaGFuZ2U%3D

Not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand, but ok.

Nothing, he just wanted to grandstand for some reason.

John Adams never had slaves, but ended up being a tyrannical ass anyway.

whitelytning posted...

Judging people that lived hundreds of years ago by todays standards isnt very reasonable.

This is one of the dumbest excuses, considering people like John Adams were staunch abolitionists and England literally was abolishing slavery right after the revolutionary war.

It is not weird at all. There have been great men who owned slaves.

No one is venerating them for being slavers tho. People aren't just one thing.

VFrench1962 posted...

It is not weird at all. There have been great men who owned slaves.

Name one.

WBC_Injury posted...

Name one.

George Washington gave up the absolute power of being a King, essentially. I cannot name you 1 politician who would ever give up power.

He is a better man than you or me or any politician in America today, who are craven and corrupt in their list for power.

I can name more if you want.

whitelytning posted...

Judging people that lived hundreds of years ago by todays standards isnt very reasonable.

Except for the fact that people *were* against slavery even at the time so even at that time period slavery was seen as an injustice and morally wrong. Hell, Aristotle talks of a group of philosophers, he doesn't name them, who believed slavery was wrong and unnatural meanwhile Aristotle talks of "natural slaves".

others however maintain that for one man to be another man's master is contrary to nature, because it is only convention that makes the one a slave and the other a freeman and there is no difference between them by nature, and that therefore it is unjust, for it is based on force. Aristot. Pol. 1.1253b

VFrench1962 posted...

George Washington gave up the absolute power of being a King, essentially. I cannot name you 1 politician who would ever give up power.

This is your standard?

Woo boy

WBC_Injury posted...

This is your standard?

Woo boy

Yes, that is my standard. He is a hero of mine

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

He has 5 karma

imo it's one of the reasons I never have any desire to be publicly patriotic, sing anthems, pledge allegiance, etc. It's all problematic.

VFrench1962 posted...

Yes, that is my standard. He is a hero of mine

Get better standards and stop mythologizing Washington.

s0nicfan posted...

The actual question is to what extent we should reject their ideas on the basis that other parts of their lives were less than savory. And by that standard, is there any person in history that wouldn't be rejected?

The actual question is what, given what we know about those who came before us, should we be teaching our children.

Where is the line between protecting their innocence and giving them people to look up to and outright lies by omission?

whitelytning posted...

Judging people that lived hundreds of years ago by todays standards isnt very reasonable.

It is when people act like Washington is an idol to attain to and emulate.

@whitelytning

Same with others like Mohammed(had slaves)

Strangely Jesus didn't do anything bad so he actually works other than people saying he not real.

We need to cut hero worship of all public figures anyway, exactly because of this example. It gives people the license to think that if they're powerful or influential enough, future generations will lionize them and ignore their atrocities.

People should be assessed accurately, and their ideas should be too. If an idea is good, then good, but good ideas should not make us ignore hypocrisy or people destroying the ideas they claim to uphold.

Keep the good ideas and take them to their logical conclusions. The slavers don't need statues or poems or glowing hagiographies.

Seems pretty simple to me, but a lot of people actively want the minimization of horror that comes with lionizing a person who wrote pretty things, while performing brutality. That's a very convenient political idea for some.

Murphiroth posted...

Get better standards and stop mythologizing Washington.

I dont mythologize him.

He is, far and away, the reason this country even made it through the first few years of turmoil and was established as a Real Country.

for a Comparison - Napoleon famously grabbed the crown out of the hands of his corona for, and placed the crown upon his own head.

Geoege Washington took the crown and threw it on the floor and went back home to Mt Vernon.

Just an amazing man.

WingsOfGood posted...

It is when people act like Washington is an idol to attain to and emulate.

@whitelytning

Same with others like Mohammed(had slaves)

Strangely Jesus didn't do anything bad so he actually works other than people saying he not real.

He is someone to idol.

America as an experiment would have failed miserably without him. Within years.

whitelytning posted...

Judging people that lived hundreds of years ago by todays standards isnt very reasonable.

If you judge them by the standards of their day they are still shitty. Slavery was frowned up upon by plenty of people.

VFrench1962 posted...

I dont mythologize him.

He is, far and away, the reason this country even made it through the first few years of turmoil and was established as a Real Country.

for a Comparison - Napoleon famously grabbed the crown out of the hands of his corona for, and placed the crown upon his own head.

Geoege Washington took the crown and threw it on the floor and went back home to Mt Vernon.

Just an amazing man.

And then pulled the teeth from his slaves so he could get some dentures. Fuck him.

ScazarMeltex posted...

If you judge them by the standards of their day they are still shitty. Slavery was frowned up upon by plenty of people.

And then pulled the teeth from his slaves so he could get some dentures. Fuck him.

Uhokay LMAO.

He freed his slaves upon his death, except House slaves to take care of his widowed wife.

I have no idea what dental stuff youre talking about - reminds me of Jebidiah Springfield fighting Washington in that one episode and Washingtons teeth get left behind

VFrench1962 posted...

I dont mythologize him.

He is, far and away, the reason this country even made it through the first few years of turmoil and was established as a Real Country.

for a Comparison - Napoleon famously grabbed the crown out of the hands of his corona for, and placed the crown upon his own head.

Geoege Washington took the crown and threw it on the floor and went back home to Mt Vernon.

Just an amazing man.

"I don't mythologize him"

*proceeds to mythologize him*

There's some small grains of truth to what you're saying but it's been highly exaggerated over the years and didn't really go down as you're saying. Aka it's been mythologized.

WingsOfGood posted...

Strangely Jesus didn't do anything bad so he actually works other than people saying he not real.

I hear he was a lousy tipper

okay, youre right. He had slavesso blah blah pure evil, blah blah did nothing good, blah blah barely impacted History or the world.

s0nicfan posted...

It's about what they created. I don't think it's a controversial take in modern day to point out that the founding fathers had some really terrible habits, so it's not like you're revealing some sort of great secret to history by pointing it out.

The actual question is to what extent we should reject their ideas on the basis that other parts of their lives were less than savory. And by that standard, is there any person in history that wouldn't be rejected?

I actually have no issue saying that they had some great ideas that are worth studying and continuing to this day. And that they were also hypocritical, racists, and cowards.
But I disagree that it's not controversial to say that. Especially because what many will then say the below statement.

whitelytning posted...

Judging people that lived hundreds of years ago by todays standards isnt very reasonable.

VFrench1962 posted...

okay, youre right. He had slavesso blah blah pure evil, blah blah did nothing good, blah blah barely impacted History or the world.

What is this melty?

I said nothing about slaves, just that you're mythologizing him. Unless you'd like to provide a source for your claim that he "took the crown and threw it on the floor and went back home to Mt Vernon."

Because there's not actually any evidence he was ever actually presented with an offer to be king to begin with.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I am confused as to why you respond to my posts, after spending 2 years in my topics saying nothing but inb4 another ban or mocking my thoughts on Cuomo and Franken