Current Events > "Cleopatra is black" is so lame

(+) Yeah! (+)

I know you heard of Jada Pinkett Smith's Cleopatra movie or documentary that is coming out soon. I know people debate about if she is black or not, but I really don't care. I just notice this thing, I don't have a name for it. They usually say "<insert historical figure here> is black" or "<insert religious group> are black."
I want to speak about the motivation and ideas behind it, the reason why they does this thing. Before I can tell you the motivation, I have to give the backstory.

So the backstory to motivation is pretty much rooted in slavery. We came here as a slave and throughout the generation, African Americans didn't know their culture back in Africa. A white person could tell you which country their ancestors were from and who they were related to. Another part of the backstory was "blue eye jesus." The pale skin model who they have represented Jesus.

When it was discovered that Jesus wasn't the model, some black came up with the conclusion that white people lied and pretty much hid the truth. With that being said, the idea was born from this question, "what else did they hid from us?"

So they did some "research" some are true, I believe the black samurai was true? (Feel free to correct me). Some stuff I questioned, like William Shakespeare being black. The most infamous ones besides Jesus was the backstory to the "We wuz Kangz" meme. That the jews today are fake and the real Israelite were black. Specifically, they were from a tribe called Igbo in Nigeria.

So what I notice about the people who spread and believe this are the same people like my best friend... they don't have shit going on for themselves. He is white and he cling on to his Greek heritage. No offense to him he is good and loyal friend. Just being honest.
TL;DR
They don't know shit about Africa or they don't find the actual history enriching so they do mental gymnastics of other cultures and historical figures and tie it to themselves to get some false sense of superiority. This shit is lame.

Theres a lawsuit against this too, crazy

AI_TechGam3FAQS posted...

Theres a lawsuit against this too, crazy

Well, I can't blame them for suing. If they win good. They need to stop it. The funny thing is, Jada is likely a majority of west african. Which has nothing to do with egypt.

If nothing else, stunts like this prompt further discussion and interest in a topic. There were some interesting AskHistorian threads on reddit after the interview with the director came out >_>

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/13bv06n/was_cleopatra_black_and_what_it_means_to_talk/

Yes, the black samurai was real

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke?wprov=sfla1

Kim_Seong-a posted...

If nothing else, stunts like this prompt further discussion and interest in a topic. There were some interesting AskHistorian threads on reddit after the interview with the director came out >_>

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/13bv06n/was_cleopatra_black_and_what_it_means_to_talk/

Some stuff I can see and agree with. We should consider race when it comes to history, that does make sense. My thing is the people who do this things don't offer a suggestion, they take it as a fact.

It is never, " there could be a possibility that Cleopatra is black as there many Sub-Saharan African in Egypt at the time. " it is more " we have been lied to! Cleopatra is black, look at the pottery."

And if you get into a discussion them there is no room for open ideas, it is there way or the highway.

Zikten posted...

Yes, the black samurai was real

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke?wprov=sfla1

Oh good. I didn't want to edit my post.

Kim_Seong-a posted...

If nothing else, stunts like this prompt further discussion and interest in a topic. There were some interesting AskHistorian threads on reddit after the interview with the director came out >_>

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/13bv06n/was_cleopatra_black_and_what_it_means_to_talk/

But is it something that needs to be discussed? All the stuff TC mentioned are well known conspiracy theories. Like, we don't need to discuss whether the moon landing was fake. I guess they're not super well known so maybe someone could think "Hm, was Cleopatra actually black?" but it's super easy to find the answer. But I guess that's never stopped people falling for conspiracies before.

I mean it's more complex than that. I think in many ways modern people are obsessed with skin color more so than anything else. People laser focus when an actor with dark skin plays a character people perceive to be "white" or so. A good example of this was the controversy with Mary Beard and the BBC and people accusing them of distorting history for portraying people with dark skin in the past, in particular in Roman Britian. But by and large that's the thing people bitch about the most. Not the inaccurate portrayal of culture or costume but the physical appearance of the actors. I'm playing Expeditions: Rome and the game's portrayal of Kleopatra and Hellenistic Egypt is pretty bad. Kleopatra acts like a brat but according to Ploutarkhos of Khaironeia it was her wit and persuasiveness that Caesar and Anthony found attractive which isn't found here. Not only in her attitude but also her dress which plays up orientalists stereotypes of a seductress foreign queen and Egyptian soldiers are not dressed at all for the period instead sporting very archaic looking gear.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/5/1/AALLlEAAEeDD.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/5/2/AALLlEAAEeDE.jpg
The game was torn apart by the Roman historian Bret Devereaux but nevertheless as he notes in his blog entry of the game it was praised for it's perceived historical accuracy which on the surface "looks" right but very much isn't. It shows that orientalists depiction of Hellenistic Egypt are very much alive and even "appear" right to people, or at least people aren't bitching about things like that as much as casting a darker skinned actor which I think speaks magnitude of volumes over what the issue is actually about under the thin veneer of bitching about historical accuracy.

How come nobody cares when white people play Egyptians?

I knew a white Marty King

Lex Luthor is black

And here you are making a topic about it

Kim_Seong-a posted...

If nothing else, stunts like this prompt further discussion and interest in a topic. There were some interesting AskHistorian threads on reddit after the interview with the director came out >_>

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/13bv06n/was_cleopatra_black_and_what_it_means_to_talk/

So it's incorrect to say Cleopatra was Black or white... when her actual skin color was green and she was a Reptilian? That's how she built the pyramids with her Spaceship's anti-grav gun?
Makes sense.

coolguyjimmy posted...

So it's incorrect to say Cleopatra was Black or white... when her actual skin color was green and she was a Reptilian? That's how she built the pyramids with her Spaceship's anti-grav gun?
Makes sense.

I think the point is that you can't look back into the past and pin people with modern concepts of blackness and whiteness as if they're universal concepts that stretch all the way back into the past. The ancients did not conceptualize race for one. And depending on the time period blackness and whiteness were more about moral character more than anything else which is why in the Middle Ages "Moors" were frequently depicted as having black skin. In the Cursor Mudi there is a pitch black "Moor" who converts to Christianity and has his skin turn white for example. It is around this time where Kleopatra starts to be depicted as black because of her moral character by European writers.

Is it fair for a child of Egyptian immigrants to receive an African American scholarship? The answers may shock you. More at 11.

ViewtifulGrave posted...

How come nobody cares when white people play Egyptians?

That's fair. Cleopatra shouldn't be played by j law. I am not arguing that she shouldn't have to be black but to say she is 100% factually black and be adamant about it have a motivation behind it. It is just reading between the line.

Bad_Mojo posted...

And here you are making a topic about it

Yeah, thanks, I know I can make a topic about it.

HannibalBarca3 posted...

I mean it's more complex than that. I think in many ways modern people are obsessed with skin color more so than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, they are some good reasons. This argument I had is just isn't one of them.

Lex Luther was BLACK!

Cleopatra WAS black. Haven't you played Zero Escape?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/0/1/AALk4HAAEeWl.png

The only lame thing is hearing people talk about it. Watch the movie or don't. The only people that need to know your opinion on things should be the people around you, not the entire fucking Internet.

https://youtu.be/SajPOgz1H5k

Would it be more appropriate for Cleopatra to be played by a Greek actress?

omniryu posted...

That's fair. Cleopatra shouldn't be played by j law. I am not arguing that she shouldn't have to be black but to say she is 100% factually black and be adamant about it have a motivation behind it. It is just reading between the line.

Yeah, thanks, I know I can make a topic about it.

Don't get me wrong, they are some good reasons. This argument I had is just isn't one of them.

Afrocentrism is a thing, yes, but I think the problem is that people mostly get worked up over that the most. When it comes to ancient history many people think of it as a "white mythic space" where only people perceived as white existed. People don't cry when people with pale skin are cast for, say, Ancient Greeks or Romans, despite the fact that, in the case of men, pale skin was seen as ugly. There's a text preserved by Xenophon on which the Spartan King Agesilaos has his Persian prisoners stripped naked in front of his men to show how pale and weak they are in contrast to the darker Greeks. People don't usually complain when the Greeks or Romans are given British or American accents to act as stand-ins for Westerners. It's only when it comes to the portrayal of dark skin people in the past that people go up in flames because the whole issue is about the perception of a white past where everything else doesn't matter. Wether it be actors with light skin and blonde hair portraying people from the Mediterranean, ancient people speaking with American or British accents, or inaccurate portrayal of costume like Expeditions Rome or Rome Total War having Hellenistic era warriors armed with kopeshes, which would be close to 1,000 years out of date, and other bronze age equipment.

Which is why the askhistorian thread Kim_Seong-a linked to mostly talks about white supremacy and lightly touches on fringe afrocentric views. And from what I've heard the actual documentary doesn't make the claims the trailer does, apparently that was Netflix trying to drum up controversy.

We could focus on the fact that Cleopatras rule was the product of Greek imperialism on the Egyptians & royal incest.

Or we could make her black and focus on how she yas queen slays the house down

I'm vibing with the OP, but a few things:

race is 100% a social construct. I'm not saying racism isn't real. hopefully i can skip over some of this, but it's literally not real. we CHOOSE which features we want to identify with what races, but we might as well have chosen earlobes or foot shape as the defining racial feature.

literally greece and africa are a boat-ride apart. there is no difference.

people, unfortunately, are fucking stupid.

you can't place a line between black and white, it's only in the extreme examples that race even exists (i.e. in a pale irish vs the darkest-skinned person on earth).

literally a social construct.

true facts: they cannot tell your race based on your DNA. yet they can? only through an additional ancestry DNA database (with racial information volunteered) can people tell your race through your DNA. essentially, if a scientist, given your DNA and no additional information, would be incapable of saying what race you were.

we focus so much on 4 traits: skin color, eye shape, nose shape, and hair type.

everything else genetic:

-earlobe type
-foot shape
-hand shape
-height
-thick vs thin
-chin shape
-eye color
-heart disease

we DON'T consider part of race.

It make, literally, no fucking sense at all, on top of being stupid as fuck even IF it did make sense (i.e. races were somehow different species likes orcs and elves).

again, literally make no fucking sense, but to answer the OP "cleopatra was black" makes about as much sense as anything because the idea of someone even being "black" or "white" doesn't even make fucking sense.

if, for example, we lined up every CEuser in a line base on any characteristic that you chose (i.e. skin color or w/e) you would not be able to point to the person who was "white" and the person who was "black"

it's fucking bullshit.

anyway, cleopatra was greek, literally we all know what greek ppl look like. they look half-black.

literally race is fucking dumb.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

The country of Egypt is suing Netflix for pissing on their history.

I don't understand why this is a big deal unless the film or whatever it is is being promoted as fact/non fiction. If it's just a drama, who gives a fuck?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/0/2/AAcSSNAAEemO.jpg

I have no dog in this fight and I'm not gonna see the movie

But I find it somewhat hilarious that after a century of white people playing every role and historical figure under the sun, people are fucking flipping out at a black chick playing Cleopatra or a fucking Mermaid.

Someone's already mentioned Jesus which is a great example but also without even leaving Egypt, how many Hollywood movies have had an all white cast play ancient Egyptians? And not one of you gave a shit.

eggcorn posted...

I don't understand why this is a big deal unless the film or whatever it is is being promoted as fact/non fiction. If it's just a drama, who gives a fuck?

just skimming the topic but....this
why do people NOT want them to be black so bad

I'm all for representation in media, but its incredibly shit when they race change characters and its ESPECIALLY FUCKING SHIT when they race change factual historical figures in a supposed documentary

?

Only question worth asking is can she act?

eggcorn posted...

I don't understand why this is a big deal unless the film or whatever it is is being promoted as fact/non fiction. If it's just a drama, who gives a fuck?

I agree - in a fictionalized drama you can make whatever changes needed to make it more interesting. Complaints about what the actress looks like are silly. Any adaptation is bound to take some liberties, like she also speaks English. I'm sure massively inbred Egyptian-born actresses of Greek descent are in short supply anyway.

That said, Netflix' Queen Cleopatra is presented as a documentary, not just a dramatic retelling. The trailer literally has the quote "I don't care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was black". At that point they're really treading the line between artistic license and pseudoscientific conspiracy theories.

I feel like the History Channel and Netflix documentaries like this have done enough damage to the mainstream public's view of ancient history. It's already difficult to find pop-sci content about ancient Egypt without a comment section spouting BS about aliens or Atlantis.

AbstraktProfSC2 posted...

just skimming the topic but....this
why do people NOT want them to be black so bad

Egyptians are notoriously anti-black. They would not be suing if a white woman was playing the part.

It's a bit of an issue when it claims it's a documentary, but it's still not the end of the world or anything. Still, I don't get how "well they did it too" is an excuse though and lots of people don't want lily white Jesus or Cleopatra either. Again, not anything to be mad at regardless.

Southernfatman posted...

and lots of people don't want lily white Jesus

If you say so

I'm looking through a list of movies about Cleo and she has been played by a bunch of Latin actresses lol

Robot2600 posted...

literally a social construct

But we lived by that social construct. You can't tell people to stop following that social construct it takes a lot for hard work to deconstruct it.

AbstraktProfSC2 posted...

just skimming the topic but....this
why do people NOT want them to be black so bad

For me it isn't about if she is or isn't black. It is about being 100: adamant about it when we don't know the full story and taking Egyptian culture as 100% black.

HannibalBarca3 posted...

People don't cry when people with pale skin are cast for, say, Ancient Greeks or Romans, despite the fact that, in the case of men, pale skin was seen as ugly

If this was a colorblind casting, I mean sure, go for it. However, the idea behind this docudrama is basically to tell people who are queens from Africa. To tell a history that a lot of people don't know about.

Hornezz posted...

At that point they're really treading the line between artistic license and pseudoscientific conspiracy theories

That's kindly put. I would say such a line is definitely crossed with that statement.

This topic went ALOT better than I thought it would.

Way to go CE.

Also as a black guy from Kansas, I agree with what OP said in his OP.

I'll add though, that it would seem that AADS and other Afro-Centric types of thoughts are incompatible with the global stage, as American black people are used to drawing inspiration from other races "coded" as black. As the world become more connected, many American Black are finding out that those cultures they idolize DO NOT see themselves as similar to American Blacks.

This also forms my problem with Yasuke (the black samurai), as he is only famous for being black, and seems like a way for black people to participate in sensationlized Japanese culture while being able to bypass idolization of Japanese (or even just Asian culture).

???

This topic feels like one I saw before...

Will Jada recover from this?

AsianFury2020 posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/0/2/AAcSSNAAEemO.jpg

This is canon Jesus. Canon Jesus wore more make up than your favorite instagram model and he wore it proud. This is why the Kardashians are now our holiest and most sacred family.

AI_TechGam3FAQS posted...

Will Jada recover from this?

I think she is going through a mid-life crisis. Which is why she is going in this territory.

AI_TechGam3FAQS posted...

Will Jada recover from this?

https://twitter.com/patrici15767099/status/1658651030970572800

A question I would love to ask the director is this:
She said that "why should we care if shes black or not". Well, I raise a question: Why do YOU need her to be black?

This is what happens when you go too woke; you do it at the expense of others.
It's like the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism
Patriotism is love for one's own country
Nationalism is love for one's own country, but at the expense of all others.

Being woke is similar; It's fine to do it, but when it reaches the point of excluding other races/sexes, it has gone too far. This is going too far.

Is this what revisionist history is?

eggcorn posted...

I don't understand why this is a big deal unless the film or whatever it is is being promoted as fact/non fiction. If it's just a drama, who gives a fuck?

its being presented as fact i believe.

Also, African Americans are weird as shit. We have a robust history and culture from what we've built here and yet there's always some conspiracy that dates back to africa which most African Americans dont really have ties to. The Harlem Renaissance is probably one of my favorite time frames in history. I rarely see shit on that. I never see anything on mansa musa. Hell, Nefertiti was actually black.

It makes me mad that we dont really appreciate our history unless its controversial stuff like this.