Current Events > ''Canceling student loans is useless unless you fix high tuition first!''

(+) Yeah! (+)

Heineken14 posted...

I mean, it absolutely is. Just because there are outliers like you (which I do believe you mean that, knowing your posting history) that exist doesn't mean it's not.

You mean center left liberals like myself derisively called "neolibs" that are numerous enough to give people like Biden the win in the Dem primary?

I'm not even that* against loan forgiveness but OBVIOUSLY we have to stop issuing bad loans first.

Edit: To be clear, "stop issuing bad loans" in this context means provide free options for higher education.
If you want to attend a particular private university, well you may need a loan. If you just want an education, there should always be free state school options.

The arguments in this topic are so fucking stupid it's insane. The idea that higher education should only be accessible to people who both have up-front capital and intend to profit from it is just ludicrous. Everyone should be able to become educated because that benefits all of society in the long run. American high school leaves people incredibly far behind the end of the public education curriculum from other developed nations.

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

You mean center left liberals like myself derisively called "neolibs" that are numerous enough to give people like Biden the win in the Dem primary?

I'm not even that* against loan forgiveness but OBVIOUSLY we have to stop issuing bad loans first.

Sure, don't really care what you want to call yourself.

BTW, want to point out after re-reading my comment that it wasn't supposed to come off as a slight. I really do believe that you are against both, but I don't think that is a majority of the people. I've found that most people who are against student loan debt are right wingers who support right wing politicians and they don't ACTUALLY care about tax cuts for the rich and the like. I have 0 evidence of this and is purely anecdotal.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Ill ELY5 then. One argument against student debt relief is that it would be be pointless to provide unless the underlying problem of artificially inflated education costs is fixed first. The problem with this argument is it doesnt consider the enormous benefit to the millions of borrowers whod receive said relief.

Just like fighting wildfires provides substantial benefits to people who would be effected by wildfires. And surely we all agree that we should be fighting wildfires even if we have not ensured that wildfire occurrences have been optimally minimized.

HairyQueen posted...

Ill ELY5 then. One argument against student debt relief is that it would be be pointless to provide unless the underlying problem of artificially inflated education costs is fixed first. The problem with this argument is it doesnt consider the enormous benefit to the millions of borrowers whod receive said relief.

The tuition costs are artificially inflated because of easy loans.
Don't make me did up that Forbes article again.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Stop handing out loans like candy, and tuition will decrease quickly.

What's more likely is that we'll see a faster increase in outsourcing jobs than whats already occurring. A lot more outsourced engineering of all fields, less physicists and chemists. It's a good way for the US to fall even further behind the curve across multiple industries

TotallyNotAGirl posted...

It's like y'all are basically admitting that getting a student loan is a complete scam

people support everyone being in crazy debt it makes zero sense but its part of american culture to support scams

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky/2023/02/16/student-loan-update-big-changes-to-interest-are-coming/?sh=14d8ac0c3e89

Important changes outlined here

I love seeing people who don't understand how higher education works talk about higher education.

As someone who teaches at a private university that is running on a multi-million dollar deficit (despite high tuition), I can tell you that there are plenty of schools that aren't Scrooge McDuck-diving into piles of money with artificially inflated tuition.

Euripides posted...

I love seeing people who don't understand how higher education works talk about higher education.

As someone who teaches at a private university that is running on a multi-million dollar deficit (despite high tuition), I can tell you that there are plenty of schools that aren't Scrooge McDuck-diving into piles of money with artificially inflated tuition.

The cost of tuition is just one part of the puzzle anyway. I went to a public state school, worked, and lived off campus with my spouse and I still needed loans + grants. It just wasn't feasible to work enough hours to support everything while balancing the workload of an engineering and physics degree. School isn't the only thing sapping your bank account in the 4ish years you're there

My bad personal finance decisions are comparable to natural disasters that affect the general public

Solid_Snake07 posted...

My bad personal finance decisions are comparable to natural disasters that affect the general public

when there's several million "personals", yes.

jobs that require a degree should be required to pay for that degree

Interest free loans sounds like a good compromise...

Chuds have 0 problem with PPP loan forgiveness but have all the problems when it affects people who went to school.

Colleges charge way too damn much, and then they sit on all that cash, intentionally keeping their campuses small and selective, so they can just accrue money. Its a problem.

As a result of this, students rack up massive debt to attend these colleges. Debt their degrees often fail to pay off in a reasonable manner, and can often lead to lifelong hardships of debt. Also a problem.

Both things are problems that need solutions.

_____Cait posted...

The private companies that own these schools are our politicians. Remember Betsy Devos? She was playing with the private schools.

They dont want to fix it.

This.

buddhamonster posted...

Colleges charge way too damn much, and then they sit on all that cash, intentionally keeping their campuses small and selective, so they can just accrue money. Its a problem.

[citation needed]

As a result of this, students rack up massive debt to attend these colleges. Debt their degrees often fail to pay off in a reasonable manner, and can often lead to lifelong hardships of debt. Also a problem.

student problem

Both things are problems that need solutions.

What's your solution?

Pay your fucking loans, deadbeats

the_rowan posted...

The arguments in this topic are so fucking stupid it's insane. The idea that higher education should only be accessible to people who both have up-front capital and intend to profit from it is just ludicrous. Everyone should be able to become educated because that benefits all of society in the long run. American high school leaves people incredibly far behind the end of the public education curriculum from other developed nations.

So free subscriptions to Wondrium and Skillshare for all. Problem solved.

Thud posted...

Pay your fucking loans, deadbeats

Is it right to trick an 18 year old into a debt that they may not be able to pay back?

I sometimes wonder why people are so okay with being scammed over and over and over again by the billion dollar companies.

Euripides posted...

[citation needed]

freakonomics.com/podcast-tag/freakonomics-radio-goes-back-to-school/

buddhamonster posted...

freakonomics.com/podcast-tag/freakonomics-radio-goes-back-to-school/

Lol. What schools are in their study?

I love that people in the US pay way more for healthcare and education than anywhere else and rather than asking why they just fight over who should pay.

Euripides posted...

Lol. What schools are in their study?

Listen and find out.

buddhamonster posted...

Listen and find out.

Lol

buddhamonster posted...

Listen and find out.

No one is spending an hour to listen to shit when you could have answered and didn't.

Euripides posted...

Lol

willythemailboy posted...

No one is spending an hour to listen to shit when you could have answered and didn't.

Sounds like a you problem.

The thing is, you were never intrested in a source, and were never going to do anything about any source I posted anyway.

So kindly fuck off.

buddhamonster posted...

Sounds like a you problem.

The thing is, you were never intrested in a source, and were never going to do anything about any source I posted anyway.

So kindly fuck off.

If you gave me a bullet point saying "thse are the schools fucking over students and swimming in cash" I'd be happy to look at it. That, however, is not my experience working in higher education

Well, you could have done your own, most basic of research, since every episode already has a breakdown and a full transcript.

Here, the first episode is four interview subjects:

• Catharine Hill, former president of Vassar College; trustee at Yale University; and managing director at Ithaka S+R.
• Morton Schapiro, president of Northwestern University.
• Ruth Simmons, president of Prairie View A&M University.
• Miguel Urquiola, professor of economics at Columbia University.

And the sources they used when pulling data comes from these:

• Progressivity of Pricing at U.S. Public Universities, by Emily E. Cook and Sarah Turner (NBER, 2022).
• More Than 1 Million Fewer Students Are in College. Heres How That Impacts the Economy, by Elissa Nadworny (NPR, 2022).
• Current Term Enrollment Estimates, (National Student Clearinghouse Research Center, 2022).
• Historically Black Colleges and Universities, (National Center for Education Statistics, 2022).
• Community Colleges and Upward Mobility, by Jack Mountjoy (NBER, 2021).
• Congress Needs to Prioritize Inclusion in Our Slumping Innovation System, by Mark Muro, Andre M. Perry, Yang You, Max Niles, and Robert Maxim (Brookings, 2021).
• How HBCUs Can Accelerate Black Economic Mobility, (McKinsey & Company, 2021).
• Promises Made Just Have to Be Promises Kept: Black Colleges Feel Stung by Democrats, by Erica L. Green (The New York Times, 2021).
• Markets, Minds, and Money: Why America Leads the World in University Research, by Miguel Urquiola (2021).
• The For-Profit College System Is Broken and the Biden Administration Needs to Fix It, by Ariel Gelrud Shiro and Richard V. Reeves (Brookings, 2021).
• The Effect of Course Shutouts on Community College Students: Evidence from Waitlist Cutoffs, by Silvia Robles, Max Gross, and Robert W. Fairlie (NBER, 2019).
• Confidence in Higher Education Down Since 2015, by Jeffrey M. Jones (Gallup, 2018).
• Improving Community College Completion Rates by Addressing Structural and Motivational Barriers, by Elizabeth Mann Levesque (Brookings, 2018).
• Mobility Report Cards: The Role of Colleges in Intergenerational Mobility, by Raj Chetty, John N. Friedman, Emmanuel Saez, Nicholas Turner, and Danny Yagan (NBER, 2017).
• The Impact of HBCUs on Diversity in STEM Fields, (UNCF).

You rather sift through all that, be my guest.

Prismsblade posted...

No matter what those hardships are most people will do whatever it'll take to escape having to pay tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars potentially of student debt.

Of course, but it's not at all easy to get student loans discharged.

Northwestern and Columbia are not representative of private universities in this country

Euripides posted...

Northwestern and Columbia are not representative of private universities in this country

Those are the interview subjects. The episode itself is about colleges as a whole.

But then again you don't actually care about any source I post. You're just nitpicking anything you can to discredit it, because you don't want to put in the effort to actually see what's being discussed.

So again, kindly fuck off.

buddhamonster posted...

Those are the interview subjects. The episode itself is about colleges as a whole.

But then again you don't actually care about any source I post. You're just nitpicking anything you can to discredit it, because you don't want to put in the effort to actually see what's being discussed.

So again, kindly fuck off.

No, I'm dismissing you because you think listening to a podcast is the same as being on the ground and dealing with the economics of higher education on the daily

buddhamonster posted...

So kindly fuck off.

You could have answered and didn't. You still haven't. Your continuing refusal to do so indicates the lolpodcast doesn't say anything close to what you said it did.

Euripides posted...

No, I'm dismissing you because you think listening to a podcast is the same as being on the ground and dealing with the economics of higher education on the daily

I provided a citation. That citation provided 15 of their own third party sources.

You don't like it? Too fucking bad.

They should at least make good on the promise.

Nasty_Nitro posted...

may

How tf are they being "tricked" or "scammed"? The terms of the loan are very clearly defined.

Thud posted...

How tf are they being "tricked" or "scammed"? The terms of the loan are very clearly defined.

I think it's the whole idea of preying on young minds who don't quite grasp the gravity of what they're signing up for.

Thud posted...

How tf are they being "tricked" or "scammed"? The terms of the loan are very clearly defined.

Thats the problem. Many of them werent. The schools lied about the loans being taken out. Or they forced students to take out loans under threat of expulsion. Or they lied about the payment plans. Or didnt tell them they were private loans. Or just signed them up for loans without telling them.

On top of all that (which is clearly documented, as Navient got sued because of it, among many others), the schools were busted for not being accredited, lying about connections to major companies, lying about graduation numbers, lying about classes available, lying about student housing. This is just stuff like Art Institute and University of Phoenix.

When you hear about fraudulent schools and debt, it isnt crap like Harvard. It is usually private schools that did all the dirty stuff.

_____Cait posted...

When you hear about fraudulent schools and debt, it isnt crap like Harvard. It is usually private schools that did all the dirty stuff.

Harvard is private.