Current Events > Kotaku on Final Fantasy 16

(+) Yeah! (+)

CyricZ posted...

Sorry I'm not buying that the Sanbreque Empire relocated their entire seat of government and uprooted an accorded neutral nation for symbolic or religious reasons.

The emperor ordered the invasion of this neutral nation even before the crystal fell, and it's also the HOLY Sanbreque Empire.

CyricZ posted...

Massive mishandling of the slavery narrative is my biggest one. Apparently no one ever thought to free the slaves before Cid. No record of slave revolts. The non-magical of Valisthea treat their superhero slaves as if they're worthless trash despite needing them to perform basic simple tasks such as keeping a fire going or drying clothes.

It hits a pretty egregious point in the first visit to Northreach with the local sidequests there.

That may be right, but I dont really expect a super nuanced take on such real life issues from a FF game. The game presents itself as dark and mature, and while it has a nice layer of presentation through more adult and believable writing, the core themes are on par with previous entries...for better and worse?

I mean what the main antagonist is setting out to do is something right out a typical jrpg story and kinda cliched by now. Theyre just using college level words this time.

Btw....Im loving the discourse this game is bringing. It really means FF is back.

Karovorak posted...

The biggest difference between the hideaway and the common people is living in the deadlands vs. living in normal land.

What are these crystals supposed to be used for? So far I have only seen them as a small portable water source, and some fire starter. The crystals are seen as some divine blessing and mostly their religion, but I have not seen anything that support the assumption that the people are fucked if the crystals are gone (except for some unrest because their holy symbol is gone, and the economic impact because the crystal trade is suddenly nonexisting)

But at the same time you see many craftsman, farmers, merchant, innkeepers, stablekeepers, even pharmacists all over the place, not a single one of them using magic of any kind.

For people who weren't born bearers to use magic. Those crystals can be used for all types if magic not just fire and water. Most of the people ARENT bearers and don't use magic. The point of the deadlines is that they were sucked dry of aether. You CANT use magic in those areas so they had to adapt. That was the whole point.

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

For people who weren't born bearers to use magic. Those crystals can be used for all types if magic not just fire and water. Most of the people ARENT bearers and don't use magic. The point of the deadlines is that they were sucked dry of aether. You CANT use magic in those areas so they had to adapt. That was the whole point.

Yeah, but what is this magic supposed to be used for, besides some water and fire? Dominands aside, the setting is pretty low fantasy and so is their magic output in most things.

JuanCarlos1 posted...

That may be right, but I dont really expect a super nuanced take on such real life issues from a FF game. The game presents itself as dark and mature, and while it has a nice layer of presentation through more adult and believable writing, the core themes are on par with previous entries...for better and worse?

Well you've kinda hit the heart of it here. This is the Final Fantasy game that says "fuck". This is the Final Fantasy game that shows naked people in bed. They clearly want this one to be thought of as a "mature" story and yet for trying to use those themes, they ultimately mishandle them due to lack of follow-through. Adult fictional writers of our time are managing it, so why shouldn't we expect something at least in line with that from one of the top video game series?

I mean what the main antagonist is setting out to do is something right out a typical jrpg story and kinda cliched by now. Theyre just using college level words this time.

But these are adults writing these stories, y'know? I don't just want to say "oh it's Final Fantasy developers/writers we can't expect too much" because that's kind of infantilizing, isn't it?

I mean yes, I'm glad that the story is starting to tackle adult topics rather than the mess that was XIII for example, but wanting to be seen as adult means being treated as an adult.

Too late. Not that it's that big of a deal, but geez, the spoiler button is there for a reason.

CyricZ posted...

You're conflating a largescale organized revolt against a standing army with more local revolts against a single community, the latter of which were frequent in the history of slavery. Like John Brown and Harper's Ferry.

Those revolts happen not because they think they can win and free all slaves, but because people get fed the hell up with it and just act.

Or to put it more simply, what's to prevent a bearer from putting their hand against their master's head and hitting the Broil setting?

The game addresses what happens to some communities where Bearers have more freedom than theyre allowed. The game also addresses, multiple times, why most Bearers dont bother putting up a fight at all. Until Cid came along, Bearers had no options. If they fight back in any capacity, they die. If they run, theyre either hunted or killed by bandits or monsters. They dont even have a place to run to considering how half the land is plagued by the Blight. Self preservation is a thing. The average person isnt willing to throw their life away and die.

You cannot compare the conditions of slavery in FF16 to a historical event like Harpers Ferry Raid. A local revolt of Bearers are still going to be slaughtered quite easily by a group of Dragoons or a single Dominant. The local guards are probably enough to put down any community revolt. Many Bearers are not in the best health conditions already.

Scarecrow17 posted...

The game addresses what happens to some communities where Bearers have more freedom than theyre allowed.

Is this later in the game? I've just finished going to Drake's Fang. Because if you're not getting your source from later, then I haven't seen a presentation of that.

Bearers had no options. If they fight back in any capacity, they die. If they run, theyre either hunted or killed by bandits or monsters. They dont even have a place to run to considering how half the land is plagued by the Blight. Self preservation is a thing. The average person isnt willing to throw their life away and die.

So you bring up the Blight as a reason Bearers don't have anywhere to run to. But the Blight can't be that old of a phenomenon to explain why 800 years have gone by with no attempts to help Bearers.

Like the Northern Territories only got recently consumed by the Blight, right? And there was war between the Territories and Rosaria just prior to the prologue, if Jill is a ward as a result of that.

You cannot compare the conditions of slavery in FF16 to a historical event like Harpers Ferry Raid.

Of course I can! Where do you think the writers got the idea for a slavery-focused narrative? Making this kind of fiction based on historical ideas, begs the comparison back to real life events, and always has.

A local revolt of Bearers are still going to be slaughtered quite easily by a group of Dragoons or a single Dominant. The local guards are probably enough to put down any community revolt. Many Bearers are not in the best health conditions already.

Once again, I'm not saying a local revolt would succeed. Of course they would fail, but they would logically still be attempted.

I'm saying the complete lack of any kind of recorded pushback over the course of hundreds of years is what makes this narrative lacking. It infantilizes the Bearer population as not being willful people of their own. It suggests they cannot be as violent, and possibly as cruel, as their non-magical masters. It casts them as something other than human, despite the whole emotional throughput of the game being that Bearers and non-Bearers are ultimately no different.

Ahh Im just sitting here contemplating the fact that a new FF game has this level of world building to bring out these discussions.

CyricZ posted...

Well you've kinda hit the heart of it here. This is the Final Fantasy game that says "fuck". This is the Final Fantasy game that shows naked people in bed. They clearly want this one to be thought of as a "mature" story and yet for trying to use those themes, they ultimately mishandle them due to lack of follow-through. Adult fictional writers of our time are managing it, so why shouldn't we expect something at least in line with that from one of the top video game series?

But these are adults writing these stories, y'know? I don't just want to say "oh it's Final Fantasy developers/writers we can't expect too much" because that's kind of infantilizing, isn't it?

I mean yes, I'm glad that the story is starting to tackle adult topics rather than the mess that was XIII for example, but wanting to be seen as adult means being treated as an adult.

Well swearing and nudity doesnt really mean mature, right? The people behind the script are capable this time around so I really think it was intentional to have a surface level discourse of such themes. Afterall they really wanted to sell as many copies as they could so maybe it's part of the making it accessible to everybody?

Also what games can we hold as the examples of adult writing and topics? Bioware games? By the end of the game, you get some quests that get quite close to that level. This game couldve benefited so much from a "choice wheel" or at least be able to ask people about different things. It also wouldve solved Jills slightly undeveloped issues.

Can people stop fucking whining about Kotaku or ResetEra here all the time? Who cares?

Anyway, how would have records of slave revolts made the story better?

Why can't Cid be the first person to plan to do something massive?

"Why didn't someone do this thing at the beginning and prevent the game/movie/show from even happening?"

Also, you absolutely see NPCs using crystals or magic for agriculture if you walk around.

Oh Jill.

I'm again holding judgment until the end, but apart from the trip to the Iron Kingdom, Jill so far just feels "there" and not really an active contributor to the cause.

JuanCarlos1 posted...

Well swearing and nudity doesnt really mean mature, right? The people behind the script are capable this time around so I really think it was intentional to have a surface level discourse of such themes.

But this isn't even the first time S-E games have tried to tackle mature topics.

Anyway, TLOU, the two most recent God of War games, Disco Elysium are all quick examples that come to mind of trying to tell a deeper more mature story and that's just scratching the surface. I think we're certainly at a time where video games as a medium deserve to have these topics addressed.

The idea of surface-level not-very-thought-out "mature" games being the norm was something of twenty years ago.

hockeybub89 posted...

Anyway, how would have records of slave revolts made the story better?

Why can't Cid be the first person to plan to do something massive?

"Why didn't someone do this thing at the beginning and prevent the game/movie/show from even happening?"

I'm just saying it's less believable world building, and honestly it wouldn't taken all that much to improve on it, but the scenes we're presented in the game do not paint the picture we're expected to believe it is.