Board 8 > First Independence Day in my new neighborhood

(+) Yeah! (+)

redrocket posted...

I grew up in a state (New York) were fireworks are completely illegal for private use. So my idea of a medium was something like smuggle in some fireworks adjacent stuff from across state lines (sparklers and snakes and shit like that, definitely no mortars lol) and be discreet with them. So moving to other states where fireworks are just a damn free for all, even in urban/residential areas ffs, was easily the wildest culture shock of my life that didnt involve travel to a foreign country (and tops a lot of those experiences tbh).

I'll be honest, mentally I kind of don't even consider snappers, sparklers, and snakes as fireworks. Those, I have no ill will towards. Not too loud, not too dangerous. Frankly, I think you would actually have actively try to hurt yourself or someone else with one of them.

Okay: On the 4th (or equivalent day in your country,) plus or minus two days, and on New Years'.
Not okay: The other 360 days of the year unless there's something real special going on that everyone in the area will appreciate, like a major sports team win.
Okay: Minor stuff that doesn't garner attention from anyone else, like sparklers.
Not okay: Screaming, wailing skyborne launches from multiple neighbors throughout the neighborhood, once each per 20 minutes in a staggered rotation. (On those other 360 days.)

There. Simple. Done. Pets might have a day or two of misery, but people who want to play with fire(works) can have their fun without being a public nuisance.

ChichiriMuyo posted...

There are roughly 10,000 injuries and 20,000 fires every year due to their usage.

That many? Damn.

GenesisSaga posted...

What if I like personal fireworks and I like other people's dogs? What's my options then? I'm not trying to be a smarmy little shit, I'm genuinely curious

Honestly, it's pretty simple - "don't be a dick about it"

Liking fireworks, even personal ones, is too innocuous a preference to be a dealbreaker imo. Definitely doesn't make anyone a dick. But being so flippant about the issues it might present, and actively mocking people who had to write sympathy cards, yeah. Dick.

UltimaterializerX posted...

This is why ground fireworks are best. They don't really "go" anywhere.

This topic has a ton of "clapping at the theater triggers me because I have a self diagnosed problem and only my truth should ever matter" energy to it. Social media has people completely forgetting what a community and having fun is.

I don't give a shit about your arguments about "Karens" or whatever

I'm just saying that your idea of "community" and "having fun" is uniquely tone deaf in that you think you're being friendly when you say "come join our community," but all that the aggrieved party hears is "quit being different, quit having a problem and just be like us." I got enough of this shit growing up Asian in the South, so I feel the need to call it out when I see it.

Fireworks at big events sure, cool, fun.

Fireworks in the park next to my house, super lame. Random dude using fireworks sucks.

XIII_Rocks posted...

But being so flippant about the issues it might present, and actively mocking people who had to write sympathy cards, yeah. Dick.

Ermine's post was insanely inflammatory. Basically equating fireworks to dead dogs, when until then the scope of the topic was fireworks causing animals a certain degree of stress on occasions. He also shamed other people for not caring about this singular freak accident that they couldn't have known about until then. A 1-year old dog being killed is a tragedy, but maaaaybe don't use that incident to try and score cheap internet argument points? I have no idea about the history of Ermine getting harassed by a user or whatever, but his actual post was ridiculous and the equivalent of a Godwin's Law in this topic.

Ermine's post was definitely an escalation but it was true and personal. It's shitty to treat that with such...sterility, and to make posts like Aecioo's. It also came 50 posts in, at which point he'd seen x number of posts dismissing the issue. I'm not surprised he was annoyed and broke that out.

Also he had a personal and very current life experience relevant to the topic, so I'm not sure why he's not supposed to post it

XIII_Rocks posted...

Ermine's post was definitely an escalation but it was true and personal. It's shitty to treat that with such...sterility, and to make posts like Aecioo's. It also came 50 posts in, at which point he'd seen x number of posts dismissing the issue. I'm not surprised he was annoyed and broke that out.

Also he had a personal and very current life experience relevant to the topic, so I'm not sure why he's not supposed to post it

Also relevant, its not nearly as much of an isolated or freak incident as its being made out to be.

I just dont see the appeal, its like having a loud engine on your car

ChichiriMuyo posted...

I hate stupid arguments like "it's your fault for moving into a neighborhood with shitty neighbors." You can't go and interview everybody living on the block.

If a common occurrence is enough to traumatize your dog/family or even drive them to death, then you sure as hell need to interview everyone on the block before moving there. Or live in an HOA that forbids fireworks. Those exist and people pay a premium to live there for this exact reason.

It sucks that the dog Ermine worked with died for no reason, but it should be uncontroversial to blame the owner for it. Especially since some loud thunder could've caused the exact same result. Would it really have been fine if the dog died due to thunder or sirens? "Oh well, nothing anyone could've done!" Dogs are domesticated creatures and demand care from the owner. If you can't keep them safe then leave them to the professionals.

foolm0r0n posted...

If a common occurrence is enough to traumatize your dog/family or even drive them to death, then you sure as hell need to interview everyone on the block before moving there. Or live in an HOA that forbids fireworks. Those exist and people pay a premium to live there for this exact reason.

It sucks that the dog Ermine worked with died for no reason, but it should be uncontroversial to blame the owner for it. Especially since some loud thunder could've caused the exact same result. Would it really have been fine if the dog died due to thunder or sirens? "Oh well, nothing anyone could've done!" Dogs are domesticated creatures and demand care from the owner. If you can't keep them safe then leave them to the professionals.

This is just more victim blaming. I mean hell, you literally just blamed the dog's owner. Even if you could interview the whole block, you have no control of who moves in after someone else moves out. Also HOAs can be absolutely terrible and are not a good solution.

Are you also the sort of person that says "look at how she's dressed, she had it coming?"

It's like being allergic to peanuts and saying that restaurants should just not use peanuts, because "you can't just ask every restaurant you go to whether they use peanuts." YES YOU CAN. You HAVE to. You'll literally die otherwise.

ChichiriMuyo posted...

This is just more victim blaming.

If using fireworks (or cooking with peanuts) were fundamentally a crime then you're right. I don't think it is. I can see how some might think so, but I think that's obviously wrong.

Side-note: I don't even know what the victim blaming argument would be for thunder or sirens

Using personal fireworks inside city limits actually is a crime where I live. They do it anyway.

foolm0r0n posted...

If using fireworks were fundamentally a crime

Simply possessing them here without a permit is a crime. Using them is a bigger crime. Transporting them into the state is the biggest one though I think.

ChichiriMuyo posted...

This is just more victim blaming.

Calling out negligence on the part of the owner isn't victim blaming. Victim blaming would be more akin to blaming the dog.

I don't mean legal crime, I know they're often illegal, I mean moral crime

Crime is not the only thing one can be a victim of. That's why we have the phrases "victim of a crime" and "victim of circumstance."

foolm0r0n posted...

I don't mean legal crime, I know they're often illegal, I mean moral crime

Wow, you really seem to be tying yourself into knots to justify what you're saying. Are you really tying to say "oh it's crime, but it's not a crime, crime. They just did something illegal and someone else got hurt because of it, but nothing morally wrong with that!"

yes...

XIII_Rocks posted...

Ermine's post was definitely an escalation but it was true and personal. It's shitty to treat that with such...sterility, and to make posts like Aecioo's. It also came 50 posts in, at which point he'd seen x number of posts dismissing the issue. I'm not surprised he was annoyed and broke that out.

Also he had a personal and very current life experience relevant to the topic, so I'm not sure why he's not supposed to post it

XIII has it on the head. Had it been early on in the topic, my post would have been a lot less vitriolic. But after reading those first bunches of post, yeah, that's what I'm gonna give.

I feel like drone shows are a lot more impressive than fireworks shows. (Sparklers are 100% okay, they do not make much noise, and they're fun for everyone.) Though I suppose it's too much to expect we move on to those. I wish we would, though. It'd be much better for everyone. I do enjoy a good fireworks show, though.

Try keeping your television on or the radio to soften the sound of fireworks. And have a safe place for them to go. Keep them indoors during the festivities. I feel like there should also have to be a notice if you're going to put off fireworks so you can prepare for them.

UltimaterializerX posted...

I truly get your point here (multiple Asian pastors at my church and Ive heard the stories) but youre missing the plot if you think fireworks and the racism you grew up dealing with are similar issues. Two things having similar language doesnt mean this isnt a false equivalency and I think its pretty unfair to conflate the two. The people having fun on July 4th (hopefully) arent trying to systematically oppress people.

I appreciate your response here. I don't mean to conflate fireworks and racism. What I will say is that many people are unsafe and unwelcome within their communities, and this feeling of outsider-ness is exacerbated on the fourth. Some of these people only feel safe in their homes with their human and non-human families. So I just don't think it's fair to handwave away people's problems with post day-of fireworks with "these people need to put their phones down and go outside." I just don't think it's fair to ever say to someone "your expressed problem isn't a problem."

Yeah victim blaming would be blaming the dog. If you have a dog that is skittish you need to be a responsible pet owner about it.

It can both be sad that the dog died, and true that if something happens ever single year without fail on July 4th, it should be accounted for by responsible pet owners.

If you aren't responsible it can still be tragic, but it isn't the neighbors fault when the same exact action took place on that day for the last 50 years.

Sometimes accidents happen even when you're trying to be responsible, so just broadly accusing every dog owner of being careless if their dog gets out is a little reckless

(And yes, victim blaming)

The story in question is set in Canada.

Canada Day Fireworks

masterplum posted...

Yeah victim blaming would be blaming the dog. If you have a dog that is skittish you need to be a responsible pet owner about it.

It can both be sad that the dog died, and true that if something happens ever single year without fail on July 4th, it should be accounted for by responsible pet owners.

If you aren't responsible it can still be tragic, but it isn't the neighbors fault when the same exact action took place on that day for the last 50 years.

This is also ignorant of the fact that dogs do in fact change as they age. You never know when just getting scared of fireworks is going to turn into desperation.

My last dog was as mellow as she could be, never could hurt a thing, not destructive at all.

One fourth of July, she was about 10 or 11, she was outside for a few hours while we went to the beach. She chewed up the wooden door leading back into the house. Completely chewed through it and got indoors. She'd been outside every 4th as we'd go to the beach in the morning and then come back just a bit before evening.

Luckily she just chewed her way indoors, not anywhere dangerous. But if this were someone elses dog and maybe it was a wood gate out of the yard into the street, different story.

Yes, dog behavior is unpredictable, no matter how hard you train them, especially if they get riled up.

red13n posted...

This is also ignorant of the fact that dogs do in fact change as they age. You never know when just getting scared of fireworks is going to turn into desperation

I would argue that thinking every dog incident is this rather than people either

A. Being negligent
Or
B. Not hiring a capable dog trainer or being effective at doing it themselves

Is being more ignorant of the state of dog owners in general (not all of them care or have the sense) or the difficulty of properly training dogs (takes more than watching a couple of YouTube videos about dog training to know what you're doing).

Lopen posted...

I would argue that thinking every dog incident is this rather than people either

I never said every dog owner is like this.

Also you aren't training your (average) dogs for fireworks. Even some of the most well-trained dogs often struggle to maintain composure at a certain point.

Leonhart4 posted...

Yes, dog behavior is unpredictable, no matter how hard you train them, especially if they get riled up.

How much does this really excuse the owner of responsibility?

My kid's behavior is unpredictable too but I'm uncontroversially responsible for everything they do and everything that happens to them.

Why are dogs and dog owners so special here?

OP wasn't trying to initiate a debate you fucking weirdos

foolm0r0n posted...

How much does this really excuse the owner of responsibility?

My kid's behavior is unpredictable too but I'm uncontroversially responsible for everything they do and everything that happens to them.

Why are dogs and dog owners so special here?

Do we really need to start explaining the differences between dogs and people?

foolm0r0n posted...

How much does this really excuse the owner of responsibility?

My kid's behavior is unpredictable too but I'm uncontroversially responsible for everything they do and everything that happens to them.

Why are dogs and dog owners so special here?

And your kids still do dumb things to hurt themselves no matter how responsible you are

The point is to stop acting like dog owners don't know what they're doing if something bad happens to their dog

red13n posted...

Do we really need to start explaining the differences between dogs and people?

Of course, since the argument is about responsibility, and we all agree people need to be responsible for their kids. So what makes dogs so much less demanding of responsibility?

It's not about being in total control, just about who's responsible. When you blame neighbors for your dog getting out and getting run over by a train, you're passing the responsibility over your dog to strangers. Explain why that's ok.

Explain it really slow and pedantically. This might be something obvious to dog people but it's legitimately foreign to me and others.

Xeybozn posted...

Honestly, fireworks are a lot better than dogs if both of them can't coexist.

That's a bad take bad takes wouldn't even touch.

foolm0r0n posted...

Of course, since the argument is about responsibility, and we all agree people need to be responsible for their kids. So what makes dogs so much less demanding of responsibility?

It's not about being in total control, just about who's responsible. When you blame neighbors for your dog getting out and getting run over by a train, you're passing the responsibility over your dog to strangers. Explain why that's ok.

Explain it really slow and pedantically. This might be something obvious to dog people but it's legitimately foreign to me and others.

I don't know that there was all that much of a debate. And frankly, I'm not entirely interested.

I don't intend to discuss beyond saying it is inconsiderate to be launching fireworks off on days where fireworks are not typically expected. And I'm not really a fan of them beyond that because my pets are family and fireworks make them deeply upset.

If you want some slow pedantic debate about the impact of fireworks on animals there is plenty of shit you can look up on the internet.

I'll never understand America's obsession with having the right to make everyone around you as miserable as possible just because it brings you an ounce of joy.

foolm0r0n posted...

Of course, since the argument is about responsibility, and we all agree people need to be responsible for their kids. So what makes dogs so much less demanding of responsibility?

It's not about being in total control, just about who's responsible. When you blame neighbors for your dog getting out and getting run over by a train, you're passing the responsibility over your dog to strangers. Explain why that's ok.

Explain it really slow and pedantically. This might be something obvious to dog people but it's legitimately foreign to me and others.

The point is that you don't get called a bad parent because your kid cuts himself open and needs stitches

But somehow you're a bad pet owner if your dog has any sort of accident

Leonhart4 posted...

The point is that you don't get called a bad parent because your kid cuts himself open and needs stitches

But somehow you're a bad pet owner if your dog has any sort of accident

Pretty sure you'd have a decent portion of people calling you a bad parent in that situation because either "you weren't watching them" or "you didn't raise them right". And I think the opposite is true as well, that no good parent would feel themself at no fault (even if that were true).

IfGodCouldDie posted...

I'll never understand America's obsession with having the right to make everyone around you as miserable as possible just because it brings you an ounce of joy.

Rugged individualism is our raison d'etre. Along with a stunning lack of self awareness.

The thing I don't like is that apparently because it's tradition, users of fireworks just get a pass on all responsibility themselves apparently while the entire burden is on pet owners.

I think at best, if you have an animal with known issues or special needs, then it would be responsible to take extra precautions such as checking living areas ahead of time, etc. You would do the same for a special needs child, making sure the school they go to is making accommodations for them before enrolling them.

To ask that of ALL pet owners though is where I have an issue, as if pet owners have an inherent burden to just acclimate themselves around a decidedly more disruptive activity. I don't believe that tradition should just mean that fireworks users are just allowed to do it no questions asked and anyone who disagrees should just have the responsibility to go somewhere else. I don't believe in that. Pet owners have as much of a right to their own joy without accommodation as people who want to use fireworks. Why are we not asking fireworks users to go around their neighborhoods before moving in?

Seanchan posted...

Pretty sure you'd have a decent portion of people calling you a bad parent in that situation because either "you weren't watching them" or "you didn't raise them right". And I think the opposite is true as well, that no good parent would feel themself at no fault (even if that were true).

Well, in both cases, the moral of the story is don't be the "expert who's never had a child/pet"

red13n posted...

Also you aren't training your (average) dogs for fireworks

You should be or you shouldn't be trusting them alone whatsoever on the 4th.

I don't leave my dog alone on the 4th and he is generally very mellow. To me that's being responsible. If your dog is high strung you need to be even more careful.

If it's not the 4th and someone is doing a full display sure we can put blame on them.

If it's just a couple of fireworks that's on you-- dog clearly has a greater than normal issue with sounds and you need to get that worked out.
If it's the 4th that's also on you.

To Leon's point-- yeah pretty much any parent that leaves their kid alone in a hazardous environment is rightly called at fault for it. For dogs, the 4th is a hazardous environment unless you've properly prepared and trained them for it. You can say society should change but the fact is it's not changed so you need to act responsibly with your dog rather than just trying to blame your neglect on "bah! Fireworks! My god!"

Like yes no one ever makes mistakes in a perfect world. At some point you need to stop blaming the world for not being perfect and take responsibility for careless or mindless actions.

And by you I don't mean you, red. You meaning dog owners who are trying to blame fireworks for every bad thing that happens to their dog on the 4th.

Your situation seems akin to someone randomly having a psychotic break. You're absolutely right dogs change as they age but you can't really fault anyone in that situation-- not the firework people either -- that was just a trigger and could have been anything.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

I'll never understand America's obsession with having the right to make everyone around you as miserable as possible just because it brings you an ounce of joy.

I was gonna stay out of this topic but you know this can be true about dogs, too, right?

Also full disclaimer

I own a dog.
I don't like fireworks and think artillery shells and the like should only be usable by registered public displays.
I still think the anti fireworks crew is dumb as hell here. Take care of your dog. You want to have an animal you never have to inconvenience your plans over because of them being dramatic get a cat. Otherwise bite the bullet and find a place you can take your dog to on the 4th or don't do anything on the 4th. Easy. (Or properly train your dog to be calm for fireworks but that's of course considerably less easy)