Board 8 > C/D: Either everything humans do is natural or nothing is

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Minus sleep, fuck and eat.

C I'd say I don't think it's fair to argue that only select things humans do can be considered natural.

An activity is natural if it can be seen being performed by other species, or if it is some biological trait unique to humans.

Creating plastic is definitely not natural.

Nah, that takes any meaning away from natural and artificial. If humans create something in a way that isn't simply some kind of biological function, it isn't a part of nature.

There's also natural as opposed to the idea of supernatural, and unnatural as a value judgment about things that don't belong in the world. For instance Dracula, in both cases.

azuarc posted...

Creating plastic is definitely not natural.

Is "creating plastic" the line here? Just trying to get a feel for when the human species began doing unnatural things.

Natural means it happens in nature vs in civilization. If it never happens in nature then it can't be natural.

C, though it depends on what you mean by natural. If by natural you literally mean not only developed by humanity which is not necessarily my primary definition then obviously not. Everything humans do is a result of our biology, including our ability to develop and use technology. We are ecosystem engineers on a grand scale, and that includes developing things like plastics. Of course natural doesnt mean good.

Edit: Also, dont underestimate the degree to which humans have messed up what we think of as natural environments, there are not really any pristine environments any more. Everything has been affected by humans.

paperwarior posted...

There's also natural as opposed to the idea of supernatural, and unnatural as a value judgment about things that don't belong in the world. For instance Dracula, in both cases.

underrated post

HaRRicH posted...

Is "creating plastic" the line here? Just trying to get a feel for when the human species began doing unnatural things.

Oh hardly, but the OP took a stance that it was all or nothing. I wanted to give an obvious example rather than something more questionable like "invented agriculture" or "created a code of laws." It's natural for humans to congregate into groups, but what they do in those groups is usually not. Tool use is not unique to humans, but forging those tools using metallurgical alloys not so much. One could also argue that this isn't limited to construction of objects, either. Humans are the only creature that hunts for sport. They fight wars. They do many things that you might be able to argue are a natural consequence of sentience, but I would argue that it's the sentience itself that leads to the divide between natural and man-made/artificial.

So if you want a line, I would say any act performed as a result of sentient thought rather than instinctual (or whatever it's called) is not "natural." That might be too harsh a stance, and I'm willing to shift it, but you seem to want a starting point, so here ya go.

Is a Beaver making a Dam natural?

LightningStrikes posted...

C, though it depends on what you mean by natural. If by natural you literally mean not only developed by humanity which is not necessarily my primary definition then obviously not. Everything humans do is a result of our biology, including our ability to develop and use technology. We are ecosystem engineers on a grand scale, and that includes developing things like plastics. Of course natural doesnt mean good.

Edit: Also, dont underestimate the degree to which humans have messed up what we think of as natural environments, there are not really any pristine environments any more. Everything has been affected by humans.

This is basically how I feel about the topic.

I reject the premise of the question.

"Natural" is a word. Like all words, it means whatever the speaker means when they say it. If the speaker is trying to say that we're just animals, and a beehive is every bit as "artificial" as OKCupid, then sure, fine, everything we do is natural. If they're trying to say that "unnatural" means "done with obvious human intention" then fine, everything we do is unnatural. It really depends on what you're trying to say when you call something "natural" or "unnatural." "Natural" has a lot of contradictory valid definitions.

Like it's natural for kids to want to dig holes on the beach. That seems like universal human behavior, across all cultures. Is a hole dug by a kid "natural?" What about a hole dug by a sea turtle to lay her eggs in?

Deny