Current Events > Communism: Give a man a home and he will think of how to fill it

(+) Yeah! (+)

DKBananaSlamma posted...

Also communism: let's kill millions of people for teh lulz

Ah, the fallacy where you only count the totalitarian communist regimes and blame all deaths specifically on communism, and ignore the authoritarian regimes that employed capitalism and never count those deaths as caused by capitalism.

How do you discount the hundreds of millions that died from slavery, exploitation, war, etc under capitalism?

Torgo posted...

Ah, the fallacy where you only count the totalitarian communist regimes and blame all deaths specifically on communism, and ignore the authoritarian regimes that employed capitalism and never count those deaths as caused by capitalism.

How do you discount the hundreds of millions that died from slavery, exploitation, war, etc under capitalism?

I dont think anyone is arguing that atrocities haven't been committed under both capitalism and communism.

The difference is that prosperity and freedom have been much more abundant in capitalist societies than in communist ones. There are reasons that communist countries have had to build literal walls to keep their people from leaving.

Torgo posted...

Ah, the fallacy where you only count the totalitarian communist regimes and blame all deaths specifically on communism, and ignore the authoritarian regimes that employed capitalism and never count those deaths as caused by capitalism.

How do you discount the hundreds of millions that died from slavery, exploitation, war, etc under capitalism?

easy: it will never happen here

Nosferatu_Zodd posted...

The difference is that prosperity and freedom have been much more abundant in capitalist societies than in communist ones.

Sure...If you are the right economic class, and if you aren't one of the populations or ethnic groups needing to be cleansed, or a slave, or one of the unfortunate countries with resources that capitalist corporations need under their soil.

And there's still no guarantee that your capitalist nation will be prosperous. Dozens of capitalist countries around the world are impoverished, but we only count the hits and ignore the misses... and then when countries that have a heavy regulated mixed economy do well, we put them under the capitalist column, and when they do bad we put them under the communist column.

By the way, I'm not a communist.

MedeaLysistrata posted...

America will be irrelevant in 20 years

The only way for there to be a future on this planet will involve the elimination of the US empire.

If you were to judge the prosperity of a medieval state under feudalism by looking at the nobility, you might marvel at the prosperity and proclaim the monarchy as a fantastic system - so long as you didn't check out how the peasants were doing...

Torgo posted...

Sure...If you are the right economic class, and if you aren't one of the populations or ethnic groups needing to be cleansed, or a slave, or one of the unfortunate countries with resources that capitalist corporations need under their soil.

And there's still no guarantee that your capitalist nation will be prosperous. Dozens of capitalist countries around the world are impoverished, but we only count the hits and ignore the misses... and then when countries that have a heavy regulated mixed economy do well, we put them under the capitalist column, and when they do bad we put them under the communist column.

By the way, I'm not a communist.

Ethnic cleansing is taking place right now by the CCP, took place under fascist Germany, etc. That isn't just a capitalism thing, that's everyone.

Exploiting under developed countries for their resources, again, not just a capitalist thing.

I'm curious to hear which countries you are referring to in the bolded part.

Torgo posted...

If you were to judge the prosperity of a medieval state under feudalism by looking at the nobility, you might marvel at the prosperity and proclaim the monarchy as a fantastic system - so long as you didn't check out how the peasants were doing...

Anti-communists will inevitably look at the squalor that the peasants are forced to live under and feel great indignation that the peasants are so poor and yet they waste their money on clothes.

Heres an idea. Instead of holding the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, lets hold it in Port-Au-Prince, Haiti.

Torgo posted...

If you were to judge the prosperity of a medieval state under feudalism by looking at the nobility, you might marvel at the prosperity and proclaim the monarchy as a fantastic system - so long as you didn't check out how the peasants were doing...

Well duh. And obviously they have knights to defend the lie.

DKBananaSlamma posted...

Yall need to read Animal Farm or something smh

Let me guess: you're one of those people that thinks 1984 was exclusively about communism, yes?

Talking to liberals (and beyond) about left wing politics is kinda like this:

"It would be good and democratic if workers themselves had control over production"
"That's exactly what the Soviet Union did and then Stalin committed genocide"
"No, Lenin dismantled workers' councils right after the Bolsheviks seized power, I'm not saying that would be good"
"ReAl CoMmUnIsM wAs NeVeR tRiEd"

scar_the_1 posted...

Talking to liberals (and beyond) about left wing politics is kinda like this:

"It would be good and democratic if workers themselves had control over production"
"That's exactly what the Soviet Union did and then Stalin committed genocide"
"No, Lenin dismantled workers' councils right after the Bolsheviks seized power, I'm not saying that would be good"
"ReAl CoMmUnIsM wAs NeVeR tRiEd"

Funny, I feel the same way about conservatives and fascism.

Nosferatu_Zodd posted...

Funny, I feel the same way about conservatives and fascism.

That real fascism hasn't been tried? I don't get what you're saying

DKBananaSlamma posted...

Yall need to read Animal Farm or something smh

Written by a socialist... funny how the Team Robber Baron folks always wanna leave that part out.

If he were alive, he'd probably write an even more scathing book about the Trump and Musk types... heaven knows he'd have plenty of material.

Capitalism is slightly more honest about its lies. Communism claims to be about a classless society where no one is superior to anyone else, where no one has more then anyone else. Yet that never happens. There is always a ruling elite class that has it better then the average man.

With Capitalism they don't lie about there being different classes, and also don't like about which classes are better. Instead they lie that anyone can move up in society and join those better classes by their own hard work. And if you failed? Its your fault for being lazy. While making it impossible for 99.9 percent of people to improve their lot in life.

Both are as corrupt. Generally the most functional countries with the best quality of life tend to be social democracy that have strong social programs. Countries that are never brought up when people talk about Communist countries. Countries that when people in America bring up their programs and want to emulate we are told those programs would destroy our country.

There are a lot of failed systems.

American capitalism lies about class.

scar_the_1 posted...

Talking to liberals (and beyond) about left wing politics is kinda like this:

"It would be good and democratic if workers themselves had control over production"
"That's exactly what the Soviet Union did and then Stalin committed genocide"
"No, Lenin dismantled workers' councils right after the Bolsheviks seized power, I'm not saying that would be good"
"ReAl CoMmUnIsM wAs NeVeR tRiEd"

You realize American liberals could never support communism. The fact that you conflate liberal and leftist together shows you don't know what you are talking about.

Do you think they will let me live in Montana?

creativerealms posted...

Capitalism is slightly more honest about its lies. Communism claims to be about a classless society where no one is superior to anyone else, where no one has more then anyone else. Yet that never happens. There is always a ruling elite class that has it better then the average man.

When was a system ever implemented where workers controlled production? Where they owned the means of production? Don't hide behind words like communism, that will mean completely different things depending on who you're asking.

SaikyoStyle posted...

American capitalism lies about class.

They lie about how easy it is to improve your class status. They don't lie that classes exist.

scar_the_1 posted...

That real fascism hasn't been tried? I don't get what you're saying

There is a large contingent of conservatives that want fascism in this country, even though, just like communism, it has been proven repeatedly and catastrophically to not work.

Nosferatu_Zodd posted...

Funny, I feel the same way about conservatives and fascism.

Well hold up a second. In this instance, fascism was tried, and we had to kick their little happy meal asses from Paris to Kursk...

creativerealms posted...

You realize American liberals could never support communism. The fact that you conflate liberal and leftist together shows you don't know what you are talking about.

Also this

creativerealms posted...

The fact that you conflate liberal and leftist together shows you don't know what you are talking about.

I don't conflate them. I'm saying, as someone on the left, that's my experience talking to liberals (and further to the right). Liberals are not leftists

Nosferatu_Zodd posted...

There is a large contingent of conservatives that want fascism in this country, even though, just like communism, it has been proven repeatedly and catastrophically to not work.

I feel like you're really not getting my point lol

scar_the_1 posted...

When was a system ever implemented where workers controlled production? Where they owned the means of production? Don't hide behind words like communism, that will mean completely different things depending on who you're asking.

Nope no country has ever successfully done that. More ever will. Human greed will always get in the way.

creativerealms posted...

Nope no country has ever successfully done that. More ever will. Human greed will always get in the way.

That, imo, is a bit of a cop-out

Nosferatu_Zodd posted...

You just described the USA since FDR

Not really. I was speaking a bit more in the hypothetical about a large-scale, non-authoritarian communist state. The person I replied to said that a communist system would be, by definition, stateless, but that kind of ignores the actual scale of trying to use that system with a large, spread out population.

The USA is a mixed economy for sure, but just having a democratic governmental system and some amount of social welfare spending isn't enough to bridge the gap to an actual communistic system or to call it some kind of mixed communist economy. We obviously have some social programs in the US and a mixed economy is likely the right answer in the long run for many of our current issues, but the USA is not even close to this hypothetical country-sized communist state I was talking about. We really don't even have enough welfare programs (or they aren't adequately funded) to take care of our citizens since millions can't afford housing and food and millions more can't afford proper healthcare.

scar_the_1 posted...

That, imo, is a bit of a cop-out

Maybe so. And yet its always happened. There are always people who will corrupt and take over a movement no matter how pure the intentions.

Does that mean we should do nothing and give up? Of course not. Just be careful

i don't see why it's that weird. if someone breaks someone then they have to pay to fix it. but since everyone owns the company, a loss affects everyone. so you work to prevent loss and preserve wage. my problem with capitalism is there has to be three cost centers, expenditure, wages, and then profit. seems like it violates occams razor.

buddhamonster posted...

Well hold up a second. In this instance, fascism was tried, and we had to kick their little happy meal asses from Paris to Kursk...

Yeah but that's not REAL fascism!

/s

DKBananaSlamma posted...

Also communism: let's kill millions of people for teh lulz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes

Laos
Cambodia
Vietnam
Operation Searchlight
Chili
British Occupation of India

We can do this forever in terms of crimes Capitalism has caused..

fascism: control people
communism: control the economy. potentially by creating human capital shortages.

of course, both try to achieve both outcomes. it's just the focus

WingsOfGood posted...

hey if you guys don't like the USA you are free to leave!

/s

Trelve posted...

Meanwhile in Communist states, they build walls to stop their own citizens escaping.

Trelve's post wins the topic.

Ah yes because i totally wish to live under a regime where criticizing the government will have me killed. America sucks, and the current way Capitalism is handled here needs change, but Id rather deal with the way capitalism is currently than ever live a second under a communist regime

godofwar596 posted...

Ah yes because i totally wish to live under a regime where criticizing the government will have me killed. America sucks

Agreed. Fuck the USA.

Th problem is guaranteeing that whoever's in power has meeting the needs and interests of the people as their goal.

Benevolent kings do this, but how to make sure your king is good? Let the people pick the king, obviously they wouldn't elect anyone that would harm them.

How could that go wrong? Simple. Power tends to aggregate, groups form around the goal of gaining power for power sake. You end up with a corrupt system that serves only to perpetuate itself.

I believe the power of choice, so easily corrupted, should be taken away. Let the king be chosen by lot. Short, temporary terms. A pressing issue needing an immediate response? A random citizen can be asked their response and that can be acted upon.

Idiots and the self centered will still be placed in power under my proposed system, but their influence would be drowned out by sheer statistics.

Torgo posted...

How do you discount the hundreds of millions that died from slavery, exploitation, war, etc under capitalism?

Idk why you're trying to blame capitalism for that when it's never needed any of those to florish.

We indulge in those things because that's just what we needed or wanted. The system itself was never a factor.

Prismsblade posted...

Idk why you're trying to blame capitalism for that when it's never needed any of those to florish.

Capitalism absolutely needs those things to flourish. It developed as a system in order to fully take advantage of those things.

IShall_Run_Amok posted...

Capitalism absolutely needs those things to flourish. It developed as a system in order to fully take advantage of those things.

if they needed to pay for their own iphone, they would be making it

IShall_Run_Amok posted...

Capitalism absolutely needs those things to flourish. It developed as a system in order to fully take advantage of those things.

This is just absurd. All of those things predate capitalism by tens of thousands of years.

War and slavery and exploiting the resources of the land have been a human staple going all the way back to literally day one.

Capitlism isn't some magical system that instantly makes us bloodthirsty killers hell bent on resource accumulation. We are just naturally like that. That's just what the human species does. The economic system we choose to use is nothing more then a reflection of what we already are.

buddhamonster posted...

This is just absurd. All of those things predate capitalism by tens of thousands of years.

:/

Under capitalism, it is considered ethical to burn down rainforests if it makes you more money than not burning down rainforests.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/3/0/AAOGRhAAE0PC.jpg

why don't we just look at whatever country has the highest median standard of living and do that

royic posted...

why don't we just look at whatever country has the highest median standard of living and do that

historical materialism, inverse ratio of the unhappy consciousness

America is bad.

MedeaLysistrata posted...

historical materialism, inverse ratio of the unhappy consciousness

uhh social contract, cateogorical imperative, ontological argument am I doing this right

Post 200