Board 8 > Hypothetically if someone had been convicted of several premeditated..

(+) Yeah! (+)

have seen some polls on this site of the death penalty on this site though and most do not support it in those cases

i've never understood the concept of death penalty as a punishment, it's more of a get out of jail free card

which I mean if you argument is to reduce suffering I understand, but that's always the exact opposite death penalty advocates intend

Murderers are still able to live happy lives while inside. They can make friends, have fun, watch tv, have visits from loved ones. All the things they deprived their victims of

Cavedweller2000 posted...

Murderers are still able to live happy lives while inside. They can make friends, have fun, watch tv, have visits from loved ones. All the things they deprived their victims of

yeah i kinda agree with this. Didn't really think of it before. But you make a good point

No. Better to have a hard line in the sand about the death penalty not being acceptable, ever. Plus AFAIK the death penalty is absurdly expensive, more so than like 60 years of prison, so there's really no upside.

There's fundamentally no way in a just society to execute someone without using way more resources than alternatives. It's always the worse option.

Your poll also needs to stipulate 0% doubt AND 0% chance of rehabilitation to make your argument complete.

No, the death penalty is never justified. There is no such thing as a humane way to end someone's life.

Snake5555555555 posted...

No, the death penalty is never justified. There is no such thing as a humane way to end someone's life.

Wow, we should treat murderers humanely, when they didn't extend their victims the same courtesy?

I'm with Cavedweller. The monsters deprived their victims of everything, and the victim's friends and family of someone they love. They were the ones who threw the ethics out the window, and prison is far more desirable than death.

BlueCrystalTear posted...

prison is far more desirable than death.

lmao

Grimlyn posted...

lmao

that might depend if you're religious or not...etc...

Unless they're a master escape artist that can't be kept from breaking out of prison, life in prison has the same effect for society. And saying they might not mind it that much, well shit, they might not mind being executed that much either.

I have 0 issue with a death penalty from an ethical standpoint. Idk things like financials, but if someone straight up unjustly killed someone, with intent to do so, and it's proven, I don't want them rehabilitated and I don't care about ethics. Let's bring back the guillotine for all I care, or make it so that they must die in the same fashion as their victims did.

BlueCrystalTear posted...

Wow, we should treat murderers humanely, when they didn't extend their victims the same courtesy?

I'm with Cavedweller. The monsters deprived their victims of everything, and the victim's friends and family of someone they love. They were the ones who threw the ethics out the window, and prison is far more desirable than death.

The death penalty is not about showing kindness to murderers. It's about the principle of taking a human life, regardless of the circumstances. When we execute someone, we're essentially saying that we have the moral authority to decide who lives and who dies. What if we make a mistake? What if an innocent person is wrongly convicted and executed? Perhaps we should focus on supporting those affected by crime and improving our justice system to prevent such acts in the first place.

i think people should be harder to kill

Snake5555555555 posted...

The death penalty is not about showing kindness to murderers. It's about the principle of taking a human life, regardless of the circumstances. When we execute someone, we're essentially saying that we have the moral authority to decide who lives and who dies. What if we make a mistake? What if an innocent person is wrongly convicted and executed? Perhaps we should focus on supporting those affected by crime and improving our justice system to prevent such acts in the first place.

I mean the OP did specify "what if there was no doubt" etc. If you want to take it beyond that then sure but that's not what the original question was

Emeraldegg posted...

I mean the OP did specify "what if there was no doubt" etc. If you want to take it beyond that then sure but that's not what the original question was

True, you're right, but even in those cases, I believe there's something fundamentally troubling about the state having the power to end a life. It's a slippery slope.

catesdb posted...

i think people should be harder to kill

Interesting. Any particular ideas on how to go about that?

BlueCrystalTear posted...

Wow, we should treat murderers humanely, when they didn't extend their victims the same courtesy?

I'm with Cavedweller. The monsters deprived their victims of everything, and the victim's friends and family of someone they love. They were the ones who threw the ethics out the window, and prison is far more desirable than death.

It's crazy how philosophers have never thought about this question before. We're still all just alone with our opinions here.

No.

I wouldn't cry if they did end up being executed, but I am entirely against the death penalty on principle.

Emeraldegg posted...

make it so that they must die in the same fashion as their victims did.

Ok I feel like that might actually deter murderers from murdering fr fr.

But tbh I don't support the death penalty in general anymore. When I was younger, I was all for it but as I've grown and changed, I no longer do. Now I think they should be thrown in solitary and throw away the key. Some prisoners live way too comfortably and that defeats the purpose of prison.

Just for the record, I'd only agree with it if it can be 100% proven without a shadow of a doubt as per the topic

Waluigi1 posted...

Ok I feel like that might actually deter murderers from murdering fr fr.

Honestly I think it might be an incentive for truly fucked up people, so probably a wash.

I don't support the death penalty under any circumstances. No one deserves to be killed no matter what terrible things they've done in the past. People want to see justice being done and feel better about themselves even if it doesn't accomplish anything. It's purely senseless.

I also don't think people should live unhappy lives in prison, for the same reason.

Sceptilesolar posted...

I also don't think people should live unhappy lives in prison, for the same reason.

The fuck. Then what is your solution to these horrendous people that can't be allowed to be with the rest of society?

foolm0r0n posted...

It's crazy how philosophers have never thought about this question before. We're still all just alone with our opinions here.

Don't worry, we understand that this discussion is beneath you.

Waluigi1 posted...

The fuck. Then what is your solution to these horrendous people that can't be allowed to be with the rest of society?

I didn't say they shouldn't be in prison, please read more closely.

Sceptilesolar posted...

I didn't say they shouldn't be in prison, please read more closely.

I know but you said they shouldn't be unhappy. Why should they not be unhappy? They deserve to suffer for their heinous acts, that's the point.

And I'm talking about murderers here, not general prisoners.

nothing is gained from inflicting suffering or death upon criminals. the law shouldn't be a tool to satisfy blood lust

paperwarior posted...

Don't worry, we understand that this discussion is beneath you.

The discussion is not, just that post

If we had an authoritarian god that was never wrong sure why not

Also this god would probably be able to figure out if death or life imprisonment is worse for that individual since that's probably subjective.

Waluigi1 posted...

I know but you said they shouldn't be unhappy. Why should they not be unhappy? They deserve to suffer for their heinous acts, that's the point.

And I'm talking about murderers here, not general prisoners.

Nobody should be unhappy. We might have to take away people's freedom to a large extent for reasons of public safety, but we're not doing anything with the goal of making them suffer. Even solitary confinement, which seems like the most extreme form of punishment that's still justifiable under my philosophy, shouldn't just be an empty and tiny box we shove our most hated people in for months and years. That's wrong.

How do you measure this unhappiness? Plenty of people are unhappy outside of prison. Some people wouldn't even be able to tolerate house arrest.

Sceptilesolar posted...

Nobody should be unhappy. We might have to take away people's freedom to a large extent for reasons of public safety, but we're not doing anything with the goal of making them suffer. Even solitary confinement, which seems like the most extreme form of punishment that's still justifiable under my philosophy, shouldn't just be an empty and tiny box we shove our most hated people in for months and years. That's wrong.

I understand the idealism, but unfortunately things are not always that simple. It is important to know when to be idealistic and when to be realistic. The reality is, even though everyone "Should" be happy, not everyone is. And sometimes, people do bad things that unduly steal that happiness away from other people.

Crimes happen, all the time, in various severities. If no one should be unhappy, do you believe that if I shoplift, I shouldn't be punished because that would make me unhappy?

Well killing someone is such a joyful experience that even if you spend the next 60 years of your life looking at the world through a hole in some concrete, you'll still be so happy

If there's even a 1% chance of rehabilitation, I think you cannot kill them.

I think Sceptilesolar is referring to the part where abuse and neglect is common in prisons when that is not part of the intended punishment.

Idk I just think it's kinda crazy to say a convicted murderer deserves happiness in the same way a normal non-murdering person does.

there are some evil people in this world. I am fine with the death penalty as an option for the most heinous murderers.

It is with religious conviction that I believe it is an inherently evil attitude to inflict suffering on others. You should be punished to the degree that it rectifies the situation, remedies your behavior, or simply keeps you away from society and from harming others, whatever is required, but you should not be made to suffer as a punishment for anything you've done. It is always evil to inflict suffering as revenge. There is no harm done in making a mandatory sequestering of a violent criminal from society comfortable for them.

Emeraldegg posted...

I understand the idealism, but unfortunately things are not always that simple. It is important to know when to be idealistic and when to be realistic. The reality is, even though everyone "Should" be happy, not everyone is. And sometimes, people do bad things that unduly steal that happiness away from other people. So why do bad people deserve the same happiness that good people do? That mindset only empowers those who seek to take, not to give.

Crimes happen, all the time, in various severities. If no one should be unhappy, do you believe that if I shoplift, I shouldn't be punished because that would make me unhappy?

I understand that imprisoning people will likely make them less happy, I get that's unavoidable. But I think there's a difference in outlook between that and saying something like 'We won't kill them, we'll just give them life in prison and have them suffer'. That seems like the wrong mentality, if not outright hypocritical.

I do also think free people shouldn't be made to be unhappy as well, of course, and that's definitely happening. So I know this is a very idealistic position to hold.

Waluigi1 posted...

Idk I just think it's kinda crazy to say a convicted murderer deserves happiness in the same way a normal non-murdering person does.

Explain why though. Happiness isn't a limited resource.

Allowing the state to determine if a citizen may be executed is never going to be okay.

paperwarior posted...

Interesting. Any particular ideas on how to go about that?

the thing i don't think we're putting enough effort into

is giving them money

There are some very odd opinions in this topic.

foolm0r0n posted...

Explain why though. Happiness isn't a limited resource.

What is there to explain exactly?

I feel like if prison is a comfortable happy place, it incentivises people to do heinous crimes to escape their shitty lives outside of prison. Prison should be seen as a bad thing, not a way to escape the shitty real world. And yes I know the ideal would be for the real world to not be shitty, but that's not going to happen either.

Waluigi1 posted...

I feel like if prison is a comfortable happy place, it incentivises people to do heinous crimes to escape their shitty lives outside of prison.

You definitely need to explain more. Has this ever happened in the history of prisons?

I'm not here for a debate, I will not be citing sources or any such nonsense.

catesdb posted...

the thing i don't think we're putting enough effort into

is giving them money

That's true, it's demonstrably harder to kill people who have money.

NBIceman posted...

There are some very odd opinions in this topic.

It's a complicated subject, I don't think there are a lot of odd opinions on it. Maybe I missed someone saying that they oppose the death penalty except for people named Edward, that would be an odd opinion to hold.