Current Events > 'Missing comma' in 1948 document leads to legal dispute over power lines

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brestugo
10/19/23 2:46:09 PM
#1:


https://www.courtnewsohio.gov/cases/2023/SCO/previews/1024-25/1024-25.asp

High school students from two eastern Ohio counties will have a chance next week to observe legal arguments made before the Supreme Court of Ohio. Some might feel like they instead are in an English class.

In the school auditorium of Buckeye Local High School in Jefferson County, the Supreme Court justices will consider a long-standing dispute regarding six words and a comma. At issue is what the phrase right to trim, cut and remove means in a 1948 legal document.

Ohio Edison Company, which has a 1948 easement allowing it to keep plants and other obstructions on a persons property from interfering with overhead electric power lines, believes the language permits it to use herbicide.The Corder family, which owns Harrison County farmland including 12.1 acres with an easement granted to Ohio Edison, argues that the power company cant spray chemicals but can only use tools to cut or trim plants and then remove what was pruned from the property.

The legal dispute began in 2017 when the Corders filed a lawsuit in Harrison County Common Pleas Court seeking an injunction to prevent Ohio Edison from using herbicide. The Corders maintained that spraying herbicide was hazardous to their organic farming and to a family members health. Ohio Edison has been skeptical of the familys dedication to organic farming and allegations that its spraying will cause health concerns.

The case reached the Supreme Court in 2020 on the issue of whether the Harrison County trial court could interpret the easement or if that duty belonged to the Public Utilities Commission of Ohio. The Supreme Court ruled the trial court should determine what the parties meant by the phrase right to trim, cut and remove. In 2021, the trial court found the language didnt authorize using herbicide. Ohio Edison appealed the decision to the Seventh District Court of Appeals, which affirmed the trial courts decision.

Ohio Edison appealed the decision to the Supreme Court, which agreed to consider the case again.

Ohio Edison argues the 1948 easement should be interpreted by its overall purpose, which was to grant the company the right to come on the Corders land to ensure the power lines are not obstructed. The company argues the language gives it three overlapping rights -- to trim, cut, or remove plants that can interfere with the lines. Ohio Edison asserts that the lack of a comma between cut and remove, which is common in such easements from that time, shouldnt lead to such a narrow interpretation that confines the utility only to use tools to take down the trees and other plants. The company has 7,000 miles of power lines in Ohio, and such an interpretation could impact thousands of easements and potentially raise the costs of maintaining the lines.

The Corders didnt own the property when the easement was signed. To determine what remove might have meant at the time, Ohio Edison looked at definitions in the 1948 edition of Websters New International Dictionary.

Among the definitions of remove are to eradicate and to eliminate. The company argues that in the context of the easement, that is a proper way to interpret remove and justifies using herbicide.

The Corders argue the more typical meanings of remove in the 1948 dictionary include to shift the location or take away, which is exactly what the easement allows. The only right Ohio Edison has is to trim or cut the vegetation and then remove it and not leave branches and limbs on the property, the family asserts.

[story continues]

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Agent_Stroud
10/19/23 2:48:32 PM
#2:


Uh oh, probably the one time that being a Grammar Nazi wouldve likely saved the courts a whole lot of headaches, just sayin.

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Tyranthraxus
10/19/23 2:50:18 PM
#3:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zim09f0VsQ

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TheDurinator
10/19/23 2:50:18 PM
#4:


Daily reminder to always use the Oxford comma and avoid situations like these.
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The_Popo
10/19/23 2:50:29 PM
#5:


Supreme Court of Ohio? Sorry farmer, youre getting some DDT sprayed all over your property.

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brestugo
10/19/23 2:50:56 PM
#6:


Agent_Stroud posted...
Uh oh, probably the one time that being a Grammar Nazi wouldve likely saved the courts a whole lot of headaches, just sayin.

In a legal document especially.

Who'd think a comma mattered so much?

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brestugo
10/19/23 2:52:48 PM
#8:


The_Popo posted...
Supreme Court of Ohio? Sorry farmer, youre getting some DDT sprayed all over your property.

Yeah, I'm with the family on this one. Who's to say what that herbicide is going to be if it's allowed?

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Agent_Stroud
10/19/23 3:00:03 PM
#9:


Tyranthraxus posted...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zim09f0VsQ

Thats the same Lawtuber who inadvertently exposed Illuminaughtii as a very bad person after she falsely accused him of stealing her editing styles, yeah? Mad props to him for being the hero we didnt deserve in that instance, as he helped get long overdue justice for the people she wronged over the years, even if I dont necessarily agree with him on everything he covers.

Sorry, back on topic now, hopefully the courts figure this one out since thats gotta be annoying to try and decipher a court document from the late forties as to the original intentions of whoever wrote it.

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Tyranthraxus
10/19/23 3:02:29 PM
#10:


Agent_Stroud posted...
Thats the same Lawtuber who inadvertently exposed Illuminaughtii as a very bad person after she falsely accused him of stealing her editing styles, yeah? Mad props to him for being the hero we didnt deserve in that instance, as he helped get long overdue justice for the people she wronged over the years, even if I dont necessarily agree with him on everything he covers.
Illuminaughti did it to herself when she, completely unprompted, accused that YouTuber of plagiarism. He didn't uncover/do anything except deny the claim and present evidence that he had used the alleged plagiarized material before she did.

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Agent_Stroud
10/19/23 3:05:52 PM
#11:


Tyranthraxus posted...
Illuminaughti did it to herself when she, completely unprompted, accused that YouTuber of plagiarism. He didn't uncover/do anything except deny the claim and present evidence that he had used the alleged plagiarized material before she did.

Still though, I have respect for him over that, and for him sticking up for the people shes attempting to sue to try and keep them from speaking up against her, as thats a honorable thing in my opinion. I dont want to derail the thread any further though, so Ill stop talking about it out of respect for TC.

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animebop
10/19/23 3:06:00 PM
#12:


I think the comma question I would agree with the company. I'm not sure if I think herbicide counts as "removing" though. Won't the plant matter still be there? So it's more like killing than trimming, cutting, or removing.

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Starks
10/19/23 3:07:58 PM
#13:


Always Oxford comma

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Tyranthraxus
10/19/23 3:08:31 PM
#14:


animebop posted...
I think the comma question I would agree with the company. I'm not sure if I think herbicide counts as "removing" though. Won't the plant matter still be there? So it's more like killing than trimming, cutting, or removing.
They talk about removal being a synonym for eradication. Personally I think it should count because otherwise the law reads like it's ok to use herbicide as long as you also cut the plants somehow which doesn't make any sense.

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mario2000
10/19/23 3:08:47 PM
#15:


Reminds me of that trucker back-pay case.

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animebop
10/19/23 3:16:54 PM
#16:


Tyranthraxus posted...
They talk about removal being a synonym for eradication. Personally I think it should count because otherwise the law reads like it's ok to use herbicide as long as you also cut the plants somehow which doesn't make any sense.

I think it's okay to use herbicide as long as it is needed to trim, cut, or remove the plant. There's some common sense here. Would the company be allowed to just use dynamite because they want to? Obviously not, and it's because there are easier ways to remove the plant.

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Tyranthraxus
10/19/23 3:21:14 PM
#17:


animebop posted...
I think it's okay to use herbicide as long as it is needed to trim, cut, or remove the plant. There's some common sense here. Would the company be allowed to just use dynamite because they want to? Obviously not, and it's because there are easier ways to remove the plant.

There's different laws saying you can't use explosives. There's nothing inherently illegal about herbicides. Are you gonna convict someone under this law if they pour out a beer on their lawn?

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Ar0ge
10/19/23 3:28:06 PM
#18:


I guess I don't understand how the comma or lack thereof changes the definition of "remove"

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animebop
10/19/23 3:29:42 PM
#19:


Tyranthraxus posted...
There's different laws saying you can't use explosives. There's nothing inherently illegal about herbicides. Are you gonna convict someone under this law if they pour out a beer on their lawn?

There's nothing inherently illegal about using explosives, either. In fact, companies do use explosives to remove trees sometimes. The key part of my post is "just because they want to."

Your scenario doesn't make sense. If someone has an easement, it's not THEIR lawn. In general, people should have limited rights to pour beer on someone else's property.

Ar0ge posted...
I guess I don't understand how the comma or lack thereof changes the definition of "remove"

It's 2 separate arguments, and the 2nd argument only matters if the company wins the first argument.

First is, can the company "remove" or "trim and remove" ? If they can only "trim and remove," then they likely can't use herbicides.

Second, are herbicides "removing"?

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Agent_Stroud
10/19/23 3:33:03 PM
#20:


Ar0ge posted...
I guess I don't understand how the comma or lack thereof changes the definition of "remove"

For laypeople like us, it wouldnt make any sense, but lawyers live for instances like this since it could very well make or break their case.

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Bad_Mojo
10/19/23 3:55:59 PM
#21:


Im great at using commas.

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Doe
10/19/23 3:56:42 PM
#22:


Tyranthraxus posted...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zim09f0VsQ
Just what I thought of lol

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Paragon21XX
10/19/23 4:44:41 PM
#23:


Claiming that the lack of a comma indicates a different intended meaning of the clause results in poor sentence structure ("right to trim, cut and remove" has both a spurious comma and a missing conjunction and would be correctly written as "right to trim and to cut and remove").

Interpreting the sentence as being grammatically correct already means that "trim," "cut," and "remove" are all separate actions that may be utilized by the utility to guarantee right-of-way for power lines on an otherwise privately-owned property.

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noisetank
10/19/23 4:48:18 PM
#24:


Starks posted...
Always Oxford comma


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Aressar
10/19/23 5:03:46 PM
#25:


I've always suspected that Murricans have no sense of nuance and context, and instead are overly fixated on semantics, but now I'm certain about it. I guess it's also in line with how sueing people/companies is a popular get-rich-quick scheme in Murrica.

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brestugo
10/19/23 5:11:09 PM
#26:




Ar0ge posted...
I guess I don't understand how the comma or lack thereof changes the definition of "remove"

The difference between "the right to trim, cut and remove [the debris]"

vs. "the right to trim, cut [missing comma?] and remove [trees]" [brackets mine]

is that the 1st interpretation means pretty much what it says - cut and remove debris.

The second interpretation - adding a comma - gives the company the ability to use herbicides - or seemingly whatever they think will "remove" trees, when without the "missing" comma it seems to me the sentence is clearly about just "removing debris".

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Gritty
10/19/23 8:36:09 PM
#27:


Comma chameleon
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Letsago
10/20/23 2:32:16 AM
#28:


This is a good opportunity for me to ask: is the Oxford comma issue an American vs. British thing? When I'm reading a journal article, most that don't use the Oxford comma seem to use British spelling.

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_____Cait
10/20/23 2:38:52 AM
#29:


Letsago posted...
This is a good opportunity for me to ask: is the Oxford comma issue an American vs. British thing? When I'm reading a journal article, most that don't use the Oxford comma seem to use British spelling.

They definitely teach it in American schools. Either people dont remember how to use it, or they are just stubborn and think it doesnt matter.

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brestugo
10/20/23 5:09:18 AM
#30:


_____Cait posted...
They definitely teach it in American schools. Either people dont remember how to use it, or they are just stubborn and think it doesnt matter.

That can vary widely.

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BurmesePenguin
10/20/23 5:41:16 AM
#31:


brestugo posted...
The difference between "the right to trim, cut and remove [the debris]"

vs. "the right to trim, cut [missing comma?] and remove [trees]" [brackets mine]

is that the 1st interpretation means pretty much what it says - cut and remove debris.

The second interpretation - adding a comma - gives the company the ability to use herbicides - or seemingly whatever they think will "remove" trees, when without the "missing" comma it seems to me the sentence is clearly about just "removing debris".
Where do trees come from the term 'remove'?

Would you even use pesticide when doing anything with trees? The way I read it is that the farmers want to read 'remove' as the act following trimming and cutting and the electric company wants to read it as a primary act in itself that pesticides can be used to accomplish, ei: "removing"/exterminating plant matter.

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brestugo
10/20/23 5:46:25 AM
#32:


BurmesePenguin posted...
Where do trees come from the term 'remove'?


What else do you think the company wants to 'remove'? It's not the power lines. They want to use a defoliant, "Agent Orange" style.

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indica
10/20/23 5:55:36 AM
#33:


TheDurinator posted...
Daily reminder to always use the Oxford comma and avoid situations like these.
Daily reminder you sound pretentious and situations like this are a rare occurrence where the Oxford comma is actually useful

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TimeForAction
10/20/23 5:57:47 AM
#34:


Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma
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Ricemills
10/20/23 6:07:48 AM
#35:


TimeForAction posted...
Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma

Ironically, this attitude is the one created this legal dispute lmao.

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ClayGuida
10/20/23 6:20:13 AM
#36:


If we are going by the definition of remove from 1948, are we also using herbicide from 1948? Google says that 2, 4-d was commercially released in 1946. So they were able to create a law and pass it specifically for this in less than 2 years?

Anyway I'm team family, cut and then remove debris. They cut near powerlines here almost annually. They have a big ass saw hooked to a pole that's on a giant semi and they just mow down everything within 5 feet of the power lines.

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brestugo
10/20/23 6:21:33 AM
#37:


Ricemills posted...
Ironically, this attitude is the one created this legal dispute lmao.

Yeah, it sounds esoteric, but it's the difference between a crew coming in and cutting down trees, vs. some 'Agent Orange' type of chemical be used on private property.

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DrizztLink
10/20/23 7:14:36 AM
#38:


brestugo posted...
Yeah, it sounds esoteric, but it's the difference between a crew coming in and cutting down trees, vs. some 'Agent Orange' type of chemical be used on private property.
it's a real commaotion

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#39
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BTH_Phoenix
10/20/23 10:29:30 AM
#40:


comma doesn't matter, "remove" in itself gives broad authority

some lawyers just like to hold everything up with technicalities and make as much $$$ as they can along the way

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brestugo
10/20/23 10:50:05 AM
#41:


This is like with the 2nd Amendment. A comma makes all the difference in the world here.

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texanfan27
10/20/23 10:55:36 AM
#42:


they shouldnt use herbicide period, crap contaminants everything. Do the job right, not quick.

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warlock7735
10/20/23 11:13:49 AM
#43:


BTH_Phoenix posted...
comma doesn't matter, "remove" in itself gives broad authority

some lawyers just like to hold everything up with technicalities and make as much $$$ as they can along the way
Trim and remove would imply removal after trimming. Trim, and remove would imply the two acts being meaningfully separate.

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DKBananaSlamma
10/20/23 11:16:56 AM
#44:


I always use the oxford comma

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