Current Events > Doctors are learning how to perform surgeries on YouTube.

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McSame_as_Bush 10/31/23 12:05:54 AM #1:	The bulge on the side of Peggy Hudsons belly was the size of a cantaloupe. And it was growing. ''I was afraid it would burst,'' said Ms. Hudson, 74, a retired airport baggage screener in Ocala, Fla. The painful protrusion was the result of a surgery gone wrong, according to medical records from two doctors she later saw. Using a four-armed robot, a surgeon in 2021 had tried to repair a small hole in the wall of her abdomen, known as a hernia. Rather than closing the hole, the procedure left Ms. Hudson with what is called a ''Mickey Mouse hernia,'' in which intestines spill out on both sides of the torso like the cartoon characters ears. One of the doctors she saw later, a leading hernia expert at the Cleveland Clinic, doubted that Ms. Hudson had even needed the surgery. The operation, known as a component separation, is recommended only for large or complex hernias that are tough to close. Ms. Hudsons original tear, which was about two inches, could have been patched with stitches and mesh, the surgeon believed. Component separation is a technically difficult and risky procedure. Yet more and more surgeons have embraced it since 2006, when the approach which had long been used in plastic surgery was adapted for hernias. Over the next 15 years, the number of times that doctors billed Medicare for a hernia component separation increased more than tenfold, to around 8,000 per year. And that figure is a fraction of the actual number, researchers said, because most hernia patients are too young to be covered by Medicare. In skilled hands, component separations can successfully close large hernias and alleviate pain. But many surgeons, including some who taught themselves the operation by watching videos on social media, are endangering patients by trying these operations when they arent warranted. Dr. Michael Rosen, the Cleveland Clinic surgeon who later repaired Ms. Hudsons hernias, helped develop and popularize the component separation technique, traveling the country to teach other doctors. He now counts that work among his biggest regrets because it encouraged surgeons to try the procedure when it wasnt appropriate. Half of his operations these days, he said, are attempts to fix those doctors mistakes. ''Its unbelievable,'' Dr. Rosen said. ''Im watching reasonably healthy people with a routine problem get a complicated procedure that turns it into a devastating problem.'' Ms. Hudsons original surgeon, Dr. Edwin Menor, said he learned to perform robotic component separation a few years ago. He said he initially found the procedure challenging and that some of his operations had been ''not perfect.'' Dr. Menor said that he now performs component separations a few times a week and that, with additional experience, ''you improve eventually.'' He said he had a roughly 95 percent success rate. In Ms. Hudsons case, he said, the use of component separation was warranted based on the complexity of her hernia and her history of prior abdominal surgeries. Component separation must be practiced dozens of times to master, experts said. But one out of four surgeons said they taught themselves how to perform the operation by watching Facebook and YouTube videos, according to a recent survey part of a broader pattern of surgeons of all stripes learning new techniques on social media with minimal professional oversight. Other hernia surgeons, including Dr. Menor, learned component separation at events sponsored by medical device companies. Intuitive, for example, makes a $1.4 million robot known as the da Vinci that is sometimes used for component separations. Intuitive has paid for hundreds of hernia surgeons to attend short courses to learn how to use the machine for the procedure. The company makes money not only from selling the machines but also by charging some hospitals every time they use the robot. Many surgeons even some paid by device companies to teach the technique havent learned how to properly carry out component separation with the da Vinci. In fact, at times they are teaching one another the wrong techniques. The robot comes with a built-in camera that makes it easy for doctors to record high-resolution videos of their surgeries. The videos are often shared online, including in a Facebook group of about 13,000 hernia surgeons. Some videos capture surgeons using shoddy practices and making appalling mistakes, surgeons said. One instructional video, paid for by another major medical device company, showed a surgeon slicing through the wrong part of the muscle with the da Vinci. Experts said the result could have been devastating, turning the abdominal muscles into what one described as ''dead meat.'' Peper Long, a spokeswoman for Intuitive, said the company hired ''experienced surgeons'' to lead its training courses. ''The rise in robotic-assisted hernia procedures reflects the clinical benefits that the technology can offer,'' she said. In interviews with The Times, more than a dozen hernia surgeons pointed to another reason for the surging use of component separations: They earn doctors and hospitals more money. Medicare pays at least $2,450 for a component separation, compared with $345 for a simpler hernia repair. Private insurers, which cover a significant portion of hernia surgeries, typically pay two or three times what Medicare does. ... In June of 2021, W.L. Gore & Associates, a medical device company that makes surgical mesh used in hernia repairs, posted a video tutorial on its website. It promised to be a step-by-step guide to component separation surgery. A surgeon narrated as he cut the patients abdominal muscles, releasing tissue so he could close a hernia. But he was operating in the wrong place and likely created a new hernia, according to four surgeons who reviewed the video. ''It absolutely trashed the abdominal wall,'' said Jeffrey Blatnik, who directs the Washington University Hernia Center. ''It was so offensive to the point that we reached out to the company and told them,'You guys need to take this down.''' ... In 2018, Dr. Willie Melvin performed a component separation with the da Vinci on Jennifer Gulledge, whose large hernia made her a good candidate for the operation. But he cut into the wrong part of the muscle, leaving new holes on each side of her body and too little slack to close her original hernia, another surgeon concluded after reviewing her case. Less than a week later, he performed an emergency surgery to close the original hernia. But the side tears remained. Dr. Melvin declined to discuss Ms. Gulledges case. He said he had a lot of experience with complex hernia cases that other surgeons have referred to him and that he and his partner performed about three component separation surgeries a month. Intuitive paid him more than $25,000 last year to demonstrate his technique to other surgeons and to check the work of doctors who are new to robotic surgery. In February 2020, Dr. Ajita Prabhu, a Cleveland Clinic hernia surgeon who has studied the frequency of failed component separation, operated on Ms. Gulledge. Dr. Prabhu told her patient that she would try her best, but that the damage from the original surgery was probably irreparable. She was right. Even with her abdominal muscles sewed back together, Ms. Gulledge lived with intense pain. Routine tasks were difficult: When she changed her granddaughters diaper, she had to remind the 2-year-old not to kick ''grandmas bad belly.'' In August, Ms. Gulledge drove 700 miles to Cleveland for a follow-up appointment. She spent four days on the road, sometimes stopping every 30 minutes because it hurt too much to remain behind the wheel. When Dr. Prabhu examined her, she confirmed Ms. Gulledges fear: Another hernia had opened up. Mickey Mouse Hernia is my grindcore band's name. Also, wtf! https://tinyurl.com/44f5n3vd --- Naz Reid <cite>McSame_as_Bush posted [p:976949990] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote><quote>The bulge on the side of Peggy Hudsons belly was the size of a cantaloupe. And it was growing.''I was afraid it would burst,'' said Ms. Hudson, 74, a retired airport baggage screener in Ocala, Fla.The painful protrusion was the result of a surgery gone wrong, according to medical records from two doctors she later saw. Using a four-armed robot, a surgeon in 2021 had tried to repair a small hole in the wall of her abdomen, known as a hernia. Rather than closing the hole, the procedure left Ms. Hudson with what is called a ''Mickey Mouse hernia,'' in which intestines spill out on both sides of the torso like the cartoon characters ears.One of the doctors she saw later, a leading hernia expert at the Cleveland Clinic, doubted that Ms. Hudson had even needed the surgery. The operation, known as a component separation, is recommended only for large or complex hernias that are tough to close. Ms. Hudsons original tear, which was about two inches, could have been patched with stitches and mesh, the surgeon believed.Component separation is a technically difficult and risky procedure. Yet more and more surgeons have embraced it since 2006, when the approach which had long been used in plastic surgery was adapted for hernias. Over the next 15 years, the number of times that doctors billed Medicare for a hernia component separation increased more than tenfold, to around 8,000 per year. And that figure is a fraction of the actual number, researchers said, because most hernia patients are too young to be covered by Medicare.In skilled hands, component separations can successfully close large hernias and alleviate pain. But many surgeons, including some who taught themselves the operation by watching videos on social media, are endangering patients by trying these operations when they arent warranted.Dr. Michael Rosen, the Cleveland Clinic surgeon who later repaired Ms. Hudsons hernias, helped develop and popularize the component separation technique, traveling the country to teach other doctors. He now counts that work among his biggest regrets because it encouraged surgeons to try the procedure when it wasnt appropriate. Half of his operations these days, he said, are attempts to fix those doctors mistakes.''Its unbelievable,'' Dr. Rosen said. ''Im watching reasonably healthy people with a routine problem get a complicated procedure that turns it into a devastating problem.''Ms. Hudsons original surgeon, Dr. Edwin Menor, said he learned to perform robotic component separation a few years ago. He said he initially found the procedure challenging and that some of his operations had been ''not perfect.''Dr. Menor said that he now performs component separations a few times a week and that, with additional experience, ''you improve eventually.'' He said he had a roughly 95 percent success rate. In Ms. Hudsons case, he said, the use of component separation was warranted based on the complexity of her hernia and her history of prior abdominal surgeries.Component separation must be practiced dozens of times to master, experts said. But one out of four surgeons said they taught themselves how to perform the operation by watching Facebook and YouTube videos, according to a recent survey part of a broader pattern of surgeons of all stripes learning new techniques on social media with minimal professional oversight.Other hernia surgeons, including Dr. Menor, learned component separation at events sponsored by medical device companies. Intuitive, for example, makes a $1.4 million robot known as the da Vinci that is sometimes used for component separations. Intuitive has paid for hundreds of hernia surgeons to attend short courses to learn how to use the machine for the procedure. The company makes money not only from selling the machines but also by charging some hospitals every time they use the robot.Many surgeons even some paid by device companies to teach the technique havent learned how to properly carry out component separation with the da Vinci. In fact, at times they are teaching one another the wrong techniques.The robot comes with a built-in camera that makes it easy for doctors to record high-resolution videos of their surgeries. The videos are often shared online, including in a Facebook group of about 13,000 hernia surgeons. Some videos capture surgeons using shoddy practices and making appalling mistakes, surgeons said.One instructional video, paid for by another major medical device company, showed a surgeon slicing through the wrong part of the muscle with the da Vinci. Experts said the result could have been devastating, turning the abdominal muscles into what one described as ''dead meat.''Peper Long, a spokeswoman for Intuitive, said the company hired ''experienced surgeons'' to lead its training courses. ''The rise in robotic-assisted hernia procedures reflects the clinical benefits that the technology can offer,'' she said.In interviews with The Times, more than a dozen hernia surgeons pointed to another reason for the surging use of component separations: They earn doctors and hospitals more money. Medicare pays at least $2,450 for a component separation, compared with $345 for a simpler hernia repair. Private insurers, which cover a significant portion of hernia surgeries, typically pay two or three times what Medicare does....In June of 2021, W.L. Gore & Associates, a medical device company that makes surgical mesh used in hernia repairs, posted a video tutorial on its website. It promised to be a step-by-step guide to component separation surgery.A surgeon narrated as he cut the patients abdominal muscles, releasing tissue so he could close a hernia. But he was operating in the wrong place and likely created a new hernia, according to four surgeons who reviewed the video.''It absolutely trashed the abdominal wall,'' said Jeffrey Blatnik, who directs the Washington University Hernia Center. ''It was so offensive to the point that we reached out to the company and told them,'You guys need to take this down.'''... In 2018, Dr. Willie Melvin performed a component separation with the da Vinci on Jennifer Gulledge, whose large hernia made her a good candidate for the operation. But he cut into the wrong part of the muscle, leaving new holes on each side of her body and too little slack to close her original hernia, another surgeon concluded after reviewing her case.Less than a week later, he performed an emergency surgery to close the original hernia. But the side tears remained.Dr. Melvin declined to discuss Ms. Gulledges case. He said he had a lot of experience with complex hernia cases that other surgeons have referred to him and that he and his partner performed about three component separation surgeries a month. Intuitive paid him more than $25,000 last year to demonstrate his technique to other surgeons and to check the work of doctors who are new to robotic surgery.In February 2020, Dr. Ajita Prabhu, a Cleveland Clinic hernia surgeon who has studied the frequency of failed component separation, operated on Ms. Gulledge. Dr. Prabhu told her patient that she would try her best, but that the damage from the original surgery was probably irreparable.She was right. Even with her abdominal muscles sewed back together, Ms. Gulledge lived with intense pain. Routine tasks were difficult: When she changed her granddaughters diaper, she had to remind the 2-year-old not to kick ''grandmas bad belly.''In August, Ms. Gulledge drove 700 miles to Cleveland for a follow-up appointment. She spent four days on the road, sometimes stopping every 30 minutes because it hurt too much to remain behind the wheel.When Dr. Prabhu examined her, she confirmed Ms. Gulledges fear: Another hernia had opened up.</quote>Mickey Mouse Hernia is my grindcore band's name.Also, wtf!https://tinyurl.com/44f5n3vd </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
McSame_as_Bush 10/31/23 7:31:12 PM #2:	Bump --- Naz Reid <cite>McSame_as_Bush posted [p:976964391] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>Bump </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Full_Pokedex 10/31/23 7:32:29 PM #3:	https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipLC2HSjlLc&pp=ygUQZHIgbmljayBzaW1wc29ucw%3D%3D --- Donkey Kong is our friend! Please call often DK, don't be a stranger! From Toadsworth, Mario Party 7 <cite>Full_Pokedex posted [p:976964415] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipLC2HSjlLc&pp=ygUQZHIgbmljayBzaW1wc29ucw%3D%3D </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
thronedfire2 10/31/23 7:37:30 PM #4:	as long as they're watching real surgery is that much different from watching it from behind the glass in a teaching hospital? I'm assuming they still have to get some in person experience as well. doctors also look up symptoms and shit on medical databases. they may learn everything in school but they don't all remember everything. I am only responding to the title, I read like 3 lines of the article and already know we only need the important parts --- I could see you, but I couldn't hear you You were holding your hat in the breeze Turning away from me In this moment you were stolen... <cite>thronedfire2 posted [p:976964500] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>as long as they're watching real surgery is that much different from watching it from behind the glass in a teaching hospital? I'm assuming they still have to get some in person experience as well. doctors also look up symptoms and shit on medical databases. they may learn everything in school but they don't all remember everything. I am only responding to the title, I read like 3 lines of the article and already know we only need the important parts </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pnut027 10/31/23 7:39:40 PM #5:	I mean if I, as an aircraft mechanic, can learn to fix cars from YouTube, Im not sure why a doctor cant learn to perform surgery on YouTube. --- If you're not getting promoted, it's not because you're not good at your job. It's because you're good at ONLY your job. <cite>pnut027 posted [p:976964532] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>I mean if I, as an aircraft mechanic, can learn to fix cars from YouTube, Im not sure why a doctor cant learn to perform surgery on YouTube. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
divot1338 10/31/23 7:43:01 PM #6:	pnut027 posted... I mean if I, as an aircraft mechanic, can learn to fix cars from YouTube, Im not sure why a doctor cant learn to perform surgery on YouTube. No ones disputing that they can learn surgery. The concern is should they? --- Moustache twirling villian https://i.imgur.com/U3lt3H4.jpg- Kerbey <cite>divot1338 posted [p:976964585] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>pnut027 posted... </cite><quote>I mean if I, as an aircraft mechanic, can learn to fix cars from YouTube, Im not sure why a doctor cant learn to perform surgery on YouTube.</quote>No ones disputing that they can learn surgery. The concern is should they? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pnut027 10/31/23 7:46:36 PM #7:	divot1338 posted... No ones disputing that they can learn surgery. The concern is should they? Yes, YouTube is a valid learning tool when used properly. --- If you're not getting promoted, it's not because you're not good at your job. It's because you're good at ONLY your job. <cite>pnut027 posted [p:976964653] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>divot1338 posted... </cite><quote>No ones disputing that they can learn surgery. The concern is should they?</quote>Yes, YouTube is a valid learning tool when used properly. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
thronedfire2 10/31/23 7:48:11 PM #8:	divot1338 posted... No ones disputing that they can learn surgery. The concern is should they? youtube is just a hosting service. if an actual medical institute wants to pay to have that kind of audience they can obviously do that instead of hosting their own videos. it's not like youtube employees are performing the surgeries --- I could see you, but I couldn't hear you You were holding your hat in the breeze Turning away from me In this moment you were stolen... <cite>thronedfire2 posted [p:976964682] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>divot1338 posted... </cite><quote>No ones disputing that they can learn surgery. The concern is should they?</quote>youtube is just a hosting service. if an actual medical institute wants to pay to have that kind of audience they can obviously do that instead of hosting their own videos. it's not like youtube employees are performing the surgeries </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
divot1338 10/31/23 7:51:07 PM #9:	You should skim the article. --- Moustache twirling villian https://i.imgur.com/U3lt3H4.jpg- Kerbey <cite>divot1338 posted [p:976964729] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>You should skim the article. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
FLAMING_EVIL_HOMER 10/31/23 8:07:39 PM #10:	Tldr. Tc didnt even have the decency to bold or highlight any main points --- I wash myself with a rag on stiiick <cite>FLAMING_EVIL_HOMER posted [p:976965003] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>Tldr. Tc didnt even have the decency to bold or highlight any main points </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HylianFox 10/31/23 8:08:51 PM #11:	Are they learning to perform surgeries from YT videos, or are they learning how to perform surgeries on YT itself? --- THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK Do not write in this space. <cite>HylianFox posted [p:976965019] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>Are they learning to perform surgeries from YT videos, or are they learning how to perform surgeries on YT itself? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
dj1200 10/31/23 8:10:22 PM #12:	People can learn from watching other people do stuff. Shrug --- "It was so ridiculous and I have so many feelings about it." -Virtual Energies <cite>dj1200 posted [p:976965046] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>People can learn from watching other people do stuff. Shrug </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
thronedfire2 10/31/23 8:10:36 PM #13:	divot1338 posted... You should skim the article. no, someone should post it without all the fluff this article looks like an 8th grader needed an extra 500 words for their essay --- I could see you, but I couldn't hear you You were holding your hat in the breeze Turning away from me In this moment you were stolen... <cite>thronedfire2 posted [p:976965051] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>divot1338 posted... </cite><quote>You should skim the article.</quote>no, someone should post it without all the fluffthis article looks like an 8th grader needed an extra 500 words for their essay </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Nukazie 10/31/23 8:10:50 PM #14:	do they not record such things so they could learn from it and maybe even distribute the knowledge --- We suffer from the delusion that the entire universe is held in order by the categories of human thought. <cite>Nukazie posted [p:976965058] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>do they not record such things so they could learn from it and maybe even distribute the knowledge </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
thronedfire2 10/31/23 8:11:16 PM #15:	Nukazie posted... do they not record such things so they could learn from it and maybe even distribute the knowledge they've been recording surgeries for decades --- I could see you, but I couldn't hear you You were holding your hat in the breeze Turning away from me In this moment you were stolen... <cite>thronedfire2 posted [p:976965064] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>Nukazie posted... </cite><quote>do they not record such things so they could learn from it and maybe even distribute the knowledge</quote>they've been recording surgeries for decades </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
McSame_as_Bush 10/31/23 8:11:57 PM #16:	pnut027 posted... I mean if I, as an aircraft mechanic, can learn to fix cars from YouTube, Im not sure why a doctor cant learn to perform surgery on YouTube. If you do something wrong when you're working on your car, nobody gets disfigured. --- Naz Reid <cite>McSame_as_Bush posted [p:976965080] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>pnut027 posted...</cite><quote>I mean if I, as an aircraft mechanic, can learn to fix cars from YouTube, Im not sure why a doctor cant learn to perform surgery on YouTube.</quote>If you do something wrong when you're working on your car, nobody gets disfigured. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
thronedfire2 10/31/23 8:13:07 PM #17:	McSame_as_Bush posted... If you do something wrong when you're working on your car, nobody gets disfigured. that definitely can't be said with 100% certainty --- I could see you, but I couldn't hear you You were holding your hat in the breeze Turning away from me In this moment you were stolen... <cite>thronedfire2 posted [p:976965104] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>McSame_as_Bush posted... </cite><quote>If you do something wrong when you're working on your car, nobody gets disfigured.</quote>that definitely can't be said with 100% certainty </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HylianFox 10/31/23 8:14:44 PM #18:	McSame_as_Bush posted... If you do something wrong when you're working on your car, nobody gets disfigured. Unless you botch the brake repair, and someone gets run over by a runaway car. --- THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK Do not write in this space. <cite>HylianFox posted [p:976965129] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>McSame_as_Bush posted... </cite><quote>If you do something wrong when you're working on your car, nobody gets disfigured.</quote>Unless you botch the brake repair, and someone gets run over by a runaway car. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ghettoraider81 10/31/23 8:15:17 PM #19:	TLDR; doctors are learning these surgeries from YouTube and then performing them when they may not be needed because they want to try to do it. --- Win, lose, or tie Oakland Raiders til I die! WHY'S THE RUM GONE! S.M.O.K.E my anti sXe <cite>ghettoraider81 posted [p:976965138] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>TLDR;doctors are learning these surgeries from YouTube and then performing them when they may not be needed because they want to try to do it. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
thronedfire2 10/31/23 8:16:50 PM #20:	ghettoraider81 posted... TLDR; doctors are learning these surgeries from YouTube and then performing them when they may not be needed because they want to try to do it. at which hospitals? because I doubt any hospital would risk its funding for that. oh actually they would make money from unneeded procedures. I dunno. --- I could see you, but I couldn't hear you You were holding your hat in the breeze Turning away from me In this moment you were stolen... <cite>thronedfire2 posted [p:976965172] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>ghettoraider81 posted... </cite><quote>TLDR;doctors are learning these surgeries from YouTube and then performing them when they may not be needed because they want to try to do it.</quote>at which hospitals?because I doubt any hospital would risk its funding for that. oh actually they would make money from unneeded procedures. I dunno. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pnut027 10/31/23 8:32:19 PM #21:	McSame_as_Bush posted... If you do something wrong when you're working on your car, nobody gets disfigured. You sure? --- If you're not getting promoted, it's not because you're not good at your job. It's because you're good at ONLY your job. <cite>pnut027 posted [p:976965438] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>McSame_as_Bush posted... </cite><quote>If you do something wrong when you're working on your car, nobody gets disfigured.</quote>You sure? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
McSame_as_Bush 10/31/23 8:58:25 PM #22:	thronedfire2 posted... no, someone should post it without all the fluff this article looks like an 8th grader needed an extra 500 words for their essay It's the New York Times. --- Naz Reid <cite>McSame_as_Bush posted [p:976965926] in Doctors ar... [t:80607364]...</cite> <quote>thronedfire2 posted...</cite><quote>no, someone should post it without all the fluffthis article looks like an 8th grader needed an extra 500 words for their essay </quote>It's the New York Times. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > Doctors are learning how to perform surgeries on YouTube. (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > Doctors are learning how to perform surgeries on YouTube.