Current Events > Pro-Palestine protestors to Biden: "No cease-fire, no votes."

(+) Yeah! (+)

No one else seeing the irony of the "democratic" party basically saying "vote or die"?

Shadow_Don posted...

Yes I think he's doing a bad job with respect to this conflict and because of that its helping trump win.

That doesn't mean he's trying to destroy democracy or that he wants trump to win.

I think its appropriate to put pressure on him to get a ceasefire. I said this in the post you quoted.

All Im saying is that actually carrying through and not voting in 2024 because you think it will get democrats to be better on their positions in 2026 and 2028 and beyond doesn't work if there are no elections anymore.

I think your argument doesn't make sense. Why does it matter whether it's his primary goal? He's still willing to oppose the majority of voters, knowing full well that it could mean losing to Trump and destroying democracy. He's not just "doing a bad job."

And why do you think it makes sense to blame the voters he loses rather than Biden himself for destroying democracy?

1337toothbrush posted...

No one else seeing the irony of the "democratic" party basically saying "vote or die"?

Lol

Bro they arent saying to vote or they will kill you.

The other party is the one saying they will kill you and you're like: "ok fine".

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

Out of curiosity to those who say that people shouldn't withhold their vote: how else are you supposed to hold politicians accountable? Cause the only other way I can think of is violence.

Well when the GOP win, they'll never be able to vote again and it will lead to that anyway.

1337toothbrush posted...

No one else seeing the irony of the "democratic" party basically saying "vote or die"?

I'm seeing the irony in enlightened progressive types who complain the election was rigged against Bernie or their darling progressive, and their roundabout "both parties are equally bad" routine.

Where the enlightened progressive would rather Republicans win, somehow spin Democrats are just as bad (when they arent) and the somehow Republicans winning is a good thing so we can elect this fabled progressive in the future who totally has a great shot in the future if you just let Republicans win this go around.

(For the record I'm not calling all or most progressives like this. Just the enlightened ones who have a habit of being directly or indirectly in favor of letting Republicans win if their progressive candidate loses.)

1337toothbrush posted...

So when republicans benefit from voter disenfranchisement, you're mad, but when democrats benefit from voter disenfranchisement, you're smug. Nice.

The Democratic Party disenfranchised voters? Citation needed.

1337toothbrush posted...

Maybe you hate democracy, but I think people should have a choice.

I'm going to explain this to you one last time. You *did* have a choice. So did tens of millions of other voters. And the majority of those voters exercised *their* choice to vote for Hillary.

1337toothbrush posted...

If democrats don't want fascism, then they should stop promoting fascist candidates and then portraying themselves as heroes for being the only opposition:

You hear that, folks? Hillary Clinton is a fascist.

For those of you who never frequented 261, tooth has been pushing this inane horse shit for eight years now.

1337toothbrush posted...

No one else seeing the irony of the "democratic" party basically saying "vote or die"?

They're saying that because that is the situation. In large part due to their inaction, but that doesn't change the reality. The Republican Party cannot be allowed to win under any circumstances and the only opposing force with a chance to win right now is the Democratic Party. And it's a matter of getting to 217 Electoral Votes which is tied to the Democratic candidate getting enough votes in crucial states.

At the same time, the dynamic that some here are pushing ensures that we stay on the edge of fascism like this. If Democrats can count on everyone's vote all the time no matter what they do or don't do, purely based on what the other guy is doing, how will they ever be held accountable or improve? What are people supposed to do when we have a heavily electoral system, but you're not allowed to withhold votes from one of the parties, to form new parties, or vote for the other party? How will we get a party that can actively fight fascism like this? How are people not currently engaged in the system supposed to become engaged with a party that operates with impunity like that?

1337toothbrush posted...

No one else seeing the irony of the "democratic" party basically saying "vote or die"?

How many American lives are we comfortable forfeiting to the wrath of fascism in the movement to punish Democrats for not being better for Palestinians? If the Democrats won't earn our vote, then just fuck America and send everyone back to the stone age?

Shadow_Don posted...

Lol

Bro they arent saying to vote or they will kill you.

The other party is the one saying they will kill you and you're like: "ok fine".

Is that why democrats say we need that party?
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/joe-biden-america-needs-the-republican-party.html
https://www.newsweek.com/nancy-pelosi-says-us-needs-strong-republican-party-1779854

Is that why democrats promote fascists?
https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/

Democrats want to uphold the status quo and they'll help fascists up onto the stage to scare people into "choosing" between existing fascism or more fascism. Then you all defend democrats as if they're good people lol

Shadow_Don posted...

Seriously? You're being ridiculous and embarrassing now.

I clarified further in the post that I'm talking about myself and other people

I'm asking you what your point was.

My point was that democrats virtue signalling about democracy while also refusing to engage in democracy is a factor in growing voter apathy. That was extremely clear from my post.

Are you saying that if someone tells you that you should vote for dems and that it would be dumb not to vote the same as engaging in anti-democratic behavior?

No, I never said that or anything implying that.

Simple enough for you?

Shadow_Don posted...

Do you mean you want viable third parties or do you mean you just want to eliminate the primary process all together or that there should be no political parties?

I'm against the two party system and want other viable parties but I'm not sure how feasible it is to not have a primary process or to not have political parties.

Ideally there just wouldn't be a "president", so you wouldn't have to bother with primaries anyway. Not having political parties is impossible since inevitably people with similar values and political standings will work collectively.

When the fall of this country happens, Democrat politicians bear some responsibility and blame.

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

Out of curiosity to those who say that people shouldn't withhold their vote: how else are you supposed to hold politicians accountable? Cause the only other way I can think of is violence.

Primary elections. That's how you do it.

darkace77450 posted...

This shit again?

Look, dude, the moderate candidates realized they were splitting the moderate vote while Bernie was enjoying the support of a relatively united progressive wing.

What? Warren was in the race the whole time. Bernie never had a united progressive wing there.

darkace77450 posted...

The moment some of the moderate candidates dropped out their supporters coalesced around - you're not going to believe this - another moderate candidate.

Wild, isn't it? I too was sure those moderate votes would throw in with a progressive Bernie, but nope. Against all expectations, they continued to back liberals over a progressive alternative.

Second choice polling was all over the place before the candidates all endorsed one specific guy.

Not everyone voting for say Pete Buttigieg was doing so because he was a moderate, he didn't even start the race as a moderate. Some were behind him because of his charisma or the fact that he was a DC outsider or the fact that he was young and had a new vision. While Biden shares the moderation he's not exactly a match on the rest.

Klobuchar supporters were polled to prefer to switch to Warren. But then she endorsed Biden, which likely flipped that.

1337toothbrush posted...

Democrats want to uphold the status quo and they'll help fascists up onto the stage to scare people into "choosing" between existing fascism or more fascism. Then you all defend democrats as if they're good people lol

Well then I guess you're cool letting the GOP exterminated millions of LGBTQ people and reducing women to subhumans on the federal level. I guess that's necessary to you because otherwise the Democrats won't try harder. We need to show them we mean business!

Strand posted...

I think your argument doesn't make sense. Why does it matter whether it's his primary goal? He's still willing to oppose the majority of voters, knowing full well that it could mean losing to Trump and destroying democracy. He's not just "doing a bad job."

Because intention matters and its clearly not an intended goal of his to end democracy. If you think he is trying to end democracy I think you are going to need some substantial evidence for that.

And I'm not sure what the majority of voters even think on this issue. I think most voters support Israel to varying degrees but obviously a lot of people aren't going to sign up for the full genocide of Gaza plan and Biden absolutely needs to respond accordingly or its the greatest failure of his presidency..

Still a really dumb idea to let trump win.

And why do you think it makes sense to blame the voters he loses rather than Biden himself for destroying democracy?

I'm not just blaming voters. Hillary has the lions share of the blame for running a bad campaign and losing. It was still a stupid decision not to vote for her as a progressive knowing that the Supreme Court was going to be on the line. There is no contradiction.

1337toothbrush posted...

No one else seeing the irony of the "democratic" party basically saying "vote or die"?

Democrats aren't saying it, Republicans are. They're telling you straight up that they will do everything in their power to eradicate transgender Americans, that they will force women to die of preventable pregnancy complications, that corporations will be allowed to poison both people and the planet, and that even the most violent, deranged individual has the right to own a high caliber semi-automatic rifle designed for military use.

Strand posted...

And why do you think it makes sense to blame the voters he loses rather than Biden himself for destroying democracy?

I'll answer your question with a question of my own. Why do you think the majority of people who support a ceasefire are single-issue voters?

Followup Question: Why should these particular single-issue voters be given any more legitimacy than any other group of single-issue voters?

Warren dropped out March 4th. Pete dropped out March 1st. Amy March 2nd.

Shadow_Don posted...

Cool.

Sounds like you should stop being bums and vote then instead of just letting Biden and Hillary beat you.

Voter disenfranchisement is cool now?

asdf8562 posted...

Congrats! Your enlightened progressive routine only aids the party actively trying to actively making things much much worse and openly flirts with doing away with elections entirely for the dear orange leader. (Republicans)

What enlightenment? I vote democratic down the entire ballot every single election, I just happen to respect the choices of other. You, on the other hand, are an enlightened democrat who thinks they know better than everyone else and thinks that if we guarantee democrats votes -- no matter what, even when they're supporting genocide full-throatedly -- then democrats will surely listen to us someday instead of serving their own interests first and foremost. You also think that it's the job of the voter to guarantee votes instead of the job of politicians to appeal to voters, as if we're living in bizarro world. Maybe we are, because I can't imagine any other world calling this a democracy.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Primary elections. That's how you do it.

You know the left would be excommunicated and blamed for the fall of the Republic if they tried to primary Biden over Palestine or anything else. It happens everytime an establishment Democrat is primaried over ideology/lack of representativeness vs corruption or health issues or something.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

My point was that democrats virtue signalling about democracy while also refusing to engage in democracy is a factor in growing voter apathy. That was extremely clear from my post.

Democrats telling you that you should vote and you should vote for them because Republicans are bad is literally engaging in democracy and a valid political discourse.

Or is it only democracy when everyone agrees with you?

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Not having political parties is impossible since inevitably people with similar values and political standings will work collectively.

Right. That was my point.

1337toothbrush posted...

Voter disenfranchisement is cool now?

What? Hillary and Biden got more votes than Bernie. There was not voter disenfranchisement.

1337toothbrush posted...

What enlightenment? I vote democratic down the entire ballot every single election, I just happen to respect the choices of other. You, on the other hand, are an enlightened democrat who thinks they know better than everyone else and thinks that if we guarantee democrats votes -- no matter what, even when they're supporting genocide full-throatedly -- then democrats will surely listen to us someday instead of serving their own interests first and foremost. You also think that it's the job of the voter to guarantee votes instead of the job of politicians to appeal to voters, as if we're living in bizarro world. Maybe we are, because I can't imagine any other world calling this a democracy.

Your claim that you vote Democrat down the ballot is irrelevant to me given your enlightened progressive routine of telling others in a roundabout way to let Republicans win if your wet dream progressive pick lost some unproven rigged election. That and you defending that somehow in your roundabout way that both parties are the same.

darkace77450 posted...

You're whining because you think the will of the people was quashed when the Democratic Party nominated Hillary in '16 and Biden in '20. The fact is both Hillary and Biden won more delegates than Bernie. That's it. That's all there is to say.

At this point, you're no different than the Trump supporters refusing to accept that Biden won the '20 general election. Hillary was the will of the people. Biden was the will of the people. It's time to grow the fuck up and stop pretending like you're entitled to your candidate of choice.

You're arguing with youself. Goodbye.

Shadow_Don posted...

Progressives are the minority. Seems like they are the ones that need to make concessions and appeal to others.

Progressives are appealing to people. They stay true to their principles and their ideas, promising and campaigning for real, positive change.

Regardless, if progressives are a minority, why are democrats so insistent on shaming them into compromising their beliefs? If they're such a minority that the democrats can't be bothered to earn their vote, how can also be key to preventing republican victory?

And I dont see how "well your just as bad as the right and you arent doing anything so im not voting" isn't a shame tactic.

Asking a party to earn your vote that they feel entitled to is basic politics, how could it possibly be a shame tactic?

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

Out of curiosity to those who say that people shouldn't withhold their vote: how else are you supposed to hold politicians accountable? Cause the only other way I can think of is violence.

The only way is violence regardless. Sitting back and hoping for electoralism to dave you have has never worked.

hockeybub89 posted...

Well then I guess you're cool letting the GOP exterminated millions of LGBTQ people and reducing women to subhumans on the federal level. I guess that's necessary to you because otherwise the Democrats won't try harder. We need to show them we mean business!

Is that why democrats say we need that party?
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/joe-biden-america-needs-the-republican-party.html
https://www.newsweek.com/nancy-pelosi-says-us-needs-strong-republican-party-1779854

Is that why democrats promote fascists?
https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/

darkace77450 posted...

Democrats aren't saying it, Republicans are. They're telling you straight up that they will do everything in their power to eradicate transgender Americans, that they will force women to die of preventable pregnancy complications, that corporations will be allowed to poison both people and the planet, and that even the most violent, deranged individual has the right to own a high caliber semi-automatic rifle designed for military use.

Is that why democrats say we need that party?
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/joe-biden-america-needs-the-republican-party.html
https://www.newsweek.com/nancy-pelosi-says-us-needs-strong-republican-party-1779854

Is that why democrats promote fascists?
https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/

Seriously folks, try actually addressing the points raised or don't bother. Or is it to difficult for you to face the reality that the democrats team up with republicans to drive the country down the gutter? "B-b-b-but they're not the exact same" doesn't matter if we're ending up with fascism sooner or later when one party is fascist and the other helps fascists.

darkace77450 posted...

Democrats aren't saying it, Republicans are. They're telling you straight up that they will do everything in their power to eradicate transgender Americans, that they will force women to die of preventable pregnancy complications, that corporations will be allowed to poison both people and the planet, and that even the most violent, deranged individual has the right to own a high caliber semi-automatic rifle designed for military use.

Yeah, but the Democrats are shitheads that act smug because they don't need to make an effort to be better than that, so let's give the GOP the keys to the country and ensure the Democrats never act entitled to votes ever again! Not that anyone will ever have an election to earn votes for again!

legendary_zell posted...

At the same time, the dynamic that some here are pushing ensures that we stay on the edge of fascism like this. If Democrats can count on everyone's vote all the time no matter what they do or don't do, purely based on what the other guy is doing, how will they ever be held accountable or improve?

The Republican Party is on its way out. That's why they've been so desperate in their attempts to suppress votes and steal elections. If they can't seize power now they'll never hold it again, and as Boomers start to die off, the Overton window will start shifting left. As the Republican Party shrivels and dies, then the Democratic Party can split into liberal and progressive parties.

So to answer your question, you keep voting until the lesser of two evils until you get your seat at the table.

Shadow_Don posted...

What? Hillary and Biden got more votes than Bernie. There was not voter disenfranchisement.

Voters clearly support policies more progressive than those crusty jackasses, the problem is that they weren't able to vote for one reason or another. Why are you against getting people to vote?

asdf8562 posted...

Your claim that you vote Democrat down the ballot is irrelevant to me given your enlightened progressive routine of telling others in a roundabout way to let Republicans win if your wet dream progressive pick lost some unproven rigged election. That and you defending that somehow in your roundabout way that both parties are the same.

Funny how not voting means that republicans win. Do you know why that is? It's because republicans give their voters exactly what they want, so they reliably show up to vote. Shocking, I know.

darkace77450 posted...

The Republican Party is on its way out.

Don't worry, democrats will swoop in to make sure that doesn't happen.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

If they're such a minority that the democrats can't be bothered to earn their vote, how can also be key to preventing republican victory?

The same way Never Trumpers can prevent Trump's victory. This is really basic stuff; we shouldn't have to be explaining this to you.

Shadow_Don posted...

Because intention matters and its clearly not an intended goal of his to end democracy. If you think he is trying to end democracy I think you are going to need some substantial evidence for that.

I don't think he's trying to destroy democracy. I think he's willing to go against the majority of voters even if it means losing votes, losing the election, and destroying democracy. He knows full well that democracy is at stake and he's even campaigned on it.

And I'm not sure what the majority of voters even think on this issue. I think most voters support Israel to varying degrees but obviously a lot of people aren't going to sign up for the full genocide of Gaza plan and Biden absolutely needs to respond accordingly or its the greatest failure of his presidency..

Still a really dumb idea to let trump win.

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2023/10/19/voters-agree-the-us-should-call-for-a-ceasefire-and-de-escalation-of-violence-in-gaza

Most, including Republicans, want the US to call for a ceasefire. Biden is going against them.

I'm not just blaming voters. Hillary has the lions share of the blame for running a bad campaign and losing. It was still a stupid decision not to vote for her as a progressive knowing that the Supreme Court was going to be on the line. There is no contradiction.

There absolutely is a contradiction. You're blaming these voters for destroying democracy when that isn't their goal, while simultaneously arguing that Biden is just "doing a bad job" because it isn't his goal to destroy democracy.

If you have Palestinian family, I can easily see how this will make you a single issue voter (or more likely, non voter).

You are not going to vote for the infinitely worse Republicans, but you will find it very difficult to give any kind of endorsement to a government who is handing Israel the money, munitions, and support they need to kill Palestinians.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Progressives are appealing to people. They stay true to their principles and their ideas, promising and campaigning for real, positive change.

Regardless, if progressives are a minority, why are democrats so insistent on shaming them into compromising their beliefs? If they're such a minority that the democrats can't be bothered to earn their vote, how can also be key to preventing republican victory?

Asking a party to earn your vote that they feel entitled to is basic politics, how could it possibly be a shame tactic?

The problem is you're telling people they need to earn your vote while at the same time getting mad when you haven't earned theirs. That's the shame tactic.

man, @1337toothbrush inspires even more confidence than status quo Democrats: "They keep the GOP around on purpose and don't want to be better. Join me in realizing it is all hopeless, and vote for death in 2024!"

Antifar posted...

"Calling people doofuses will get them to side with me" - you

Since when have we attempted to be respectful to Trumpers and why should we start now?

darkace77450 posted...

Democrats aren't saying it, Republicans are. They're telling you straight up that they will do everything in their power to eradicate transgender Americans, that they will force women to die of preventable pregnancy complications, that corporations will be allowed to poison both people and the planet, and that even the most violent, deranged individual has the right to own a high caliber semi-automatic rifle designed for military use.

Which is exactly why Republicans vehemently vote every time. They know that a vote for the Republicans means a vote for the awful shit they want.

A vote for Democrats is a vote for things getting worse quietly instead of loudly. A passive party in an enivronment that wants change.
legendary_zell posted...

You know the left would be excommunicated and blamed for the fall of the Republic if they tried to primary Biden over Palestine or anything else. It happens everytime an establishment Democrat is primaried over ideology/lack of representativeness vs corruption or health issues or something.

In the primary it'd just kick the can down the road with "You think [politician with a backbone] can beat [this week's republican ghoul]? They're too radical, we need [milquetoast hack] to get the moderate vote, we can go for [politician with a backbone] when [republican ghoul] is gone"

Shadow_Don posted...

Democrats telling you that you should vote and you should vote for them because Republicans are bad is literally engaging in democracy and a valid political discourse.

Telling people to vote while ignoring their concerns is not democracy.

Or is it only democracy when everyone agrees with you?

Democracy is when you look at what the majority wants and do that. The ideal of representative democracy is that you look at what the majority wants, say you'll do that, win the election with that majority and then do what the majority wants.

Democrats consistently refuse to do either, insisting that they're entitled to the votes of people whose beliefs they give zero shits about.

hockeybub89 posted...

man, 1337toothbrush inspires even more confidence than status quo Democrats: "They keep the GOP around on purpose and don't want to be better. Join me in realizing it is all hopeless, and vote for death in 2024!"

I've said multiple times that I vote for democrats down the entire ballot every time. Are you saying that's equal to voting for death? Even though I vote democrat every time, I'm not stupid enough to think it'll make a difference, but I do it because I might as well. I just don't think it's my place to say "vote or die" to other people and I think that anger is better directed at the do-nothing democrats who do nothing to appeal to voters and do nothing to advance progressive causes.

1337toothbrush posted...

Funny how not voting means that republicans win. Do you know why that is? It's because republicans give their voters exactly what they want, so they reliably show up to vote. Shocking, I know.

Despite Republicans losing the popular vote twice:
Holds enough power in the Senate and House to obstruct progress;
Is able to win the presidency through the electoral college system;
Has Republicans actively trying to correct their mistakes from 2020 to allow them to reverse results of elections they don't like;
Has Republicans openly admitting they fear for the chances of winning when more people can vote. Hence their efforts to reduce voters (similar to your efforts actually with you enlightened progressive routine);

So it's not a shocker at all people like you love to ignore the minority party is able to hold power by your type promoting people to staying home.

So either your a closet Republican or an enlightened Progressive.

darkace77450 posted...

The same way Never Trumpers can prevent Trump's victory. This is really basic stuff; we shouldn't have to be explaining this to you.

So if progressives are a big enough block to swing the election, why aren't the democrats bothered to appeal them at all?

darkace77450 posted...

What we're saying is taking the protest too far could cause irreparable harm to our country while still not changing the status quo you're protesting.

This is big "protest where we can't see you" energy

If you think people should just shut the fuck up and vote for Biden, and voice their grievances after the election then just say so. But drop the wishy washy "you CAN protest, buuuut..." bullshit

Shadow_Don posted...

The problem is you're telling people they need to earn your vote while at the same time getting mad when you haven't earned theirs. That's the shame tactic.

Where have I got mad? Where have I demanded that everyone subscribes to my ideology unquestioningly?

asdf8562 posted...

Despite Republicans losing the popular vote twice:
Holds enough power in the Senate and House to obstruct progress;
Is able to win the presidency through the electoral college system;
Has Republicans actively trying to correct their mistakes from 2020 to allow them to reverse results of elections they don't like;
Has Republicans openly admitting they fear for the chances of winning when more people can vote. Hence their efforts to reduce voters (similar to your efforts actually with you enlightened progressive routine);

So it's not a shocker at all people like you love to ignore the minority party is able to hold power by your type promoting people to staying home.

So either your a closet Republican or an enlightened Progressive.

See, that's another thing. Republicans play dirty and they fight for every scrap of power they can get. Meanwhile democrats sit with their thumbs up their ass and claim they can't do anything ever. If anything you're the closet republican because you're content with this arrangement.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

A vote for Democrats is a vote for things getting worse quietly instead of loudly. A passive party in an enivronment that wants change.

Reality directly contradicts this claim. By progressive standards, things did get better under Obama. The shift may not have been as fast or far as you'd like, but it's demonstrably false to claim that the country was trending in the wrong direction under his presidency. Or under Biden's, for that matter.

1337toothbrush posted...

Do you know why that is? It's because republicans give their voters exactly what they want, so they reliably show up to vote.

Nope. This is false. Republicans have been promising to cut government spending for decades and have done the opposite. It took them 50 years to deliver on the promise to overturn Roe v. Wade. And then there's the litany of Trump's broken campaign promises.

1337toothbrush posted...

Voters clearly support policies more progressive than those crusty jackasses, the problem is that they weren't able to vote for one reason or another. Why are you against getting people to vote?

darkace77450 posted...

The Democratic Party disenfranchised voters? Citation needed.

1337toothbrush posted...

I've said multiple times that I vote for democrats down the entire ballot every time. Are you saying that's equal to voting for death? Even though I vote democrat every time, I'm not stupid enough to think it'll make a difference, but I do it because I might as well. I just don't think it's my place to say "vote or die" to other people and I think that anger is better directed at the do-nothing democrats who do nothing to appeal to voters and do nothing to advance progressive causes.

Everyone needs to vote for Democrats in 2024. Stop giving people outs. The entire fate of America hinges on the GOP losing.

I hate the fucking Democrats far more than you, but my anger is going to WORTHLESS if we're all fucking dead and never get to vote again!

The GOP is holding a loaded gun to our heads and you're telling people that it's cool if they let them pull the trigger, because it's the Democrats fault for taking advantage of your desire to not die instead of them fighting the gun out of the GOP's hands. You know that couldn't happen within a year in even a perfect world full of Democrats that like us.

Strand posted...

I don't think he's trying to destroy democracy. I think he's willing to go against the majority of voters even if it means losing votes, losing the election, and destroying democracy. He knows full well that democracy is at stake and he's even campaigned on it.

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2023/10/19/voters-agree-the-us-should-call-for-a-ceasefire-and-de-escalation-of-violence-in-gaza

Most, including Republicans, want the US to call for a ceasefire. Biden is going against them.

Right. I said most people support Israel but are not on board with genocide. And I said it would be a failure on Biden if he lets it happen.

Still a dumb idea to let Trump win.

There absolutely is a contradiction. You're blaming these voters for destroying democracy when that isn't their goal, while simultaneously arguing that Biden is just "doing a bad job" because it isn't his goal to destroy democracy.

I blame Hillary the most for costing us Roe. Progressives who didn't vote also have some blame.

I don't think people not voting in 2024 are trying to destroy democracy. I'm merely explaining the consequences of letting trump win.

darkace77450 posted...

The Democratic Party disenfranchised voters? Citation needed.

Voter turnout in primaries is even lower than the general election. So clearly something is preventing people from voting in primaries even more than the general.

hockeybub89 posted...

Everyone needs to vote for Democrats in 2024. Stop giving people outs. The entire fate of America hinges on the GOP losing.

I hate the fucking Democrats far more than you, but my anger is going to WORTHLESS if we're all fucking dead and never get to vote again!

The GOP is holding a loaded gun to our heads and you're telling people that it's cool if they let them pull the trigger, because it's the Democrats fault for taking advantage of your desire to not die instead of them fighting the gun out of the GOP's hands. You know that couldn't happen within a year in even a perfect world full of Democrats that like us.

People not voting is exercising their right to not have to vote. You're giving an out to democrats who should be working to appeal for votes. Literally, that's the only job of a politician on the campaign trail, and democrats fail at it. Stop giving them outs.

Also, republicans are holding a loaded gun to our heads and democrats helped them load it:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/joe-biden-america-needs-the-republican-party.html
https://www.newsweek.com/nancy-pelosi-says-us-needs-strong-republican-party-1779854
https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/

Gwynevere posted...

This is big "protest where we can't see you" energy

If you think people should just shut the fuck up and vote for Biden, and voice their grievances after the election then just say so. But drop the wishy washy "you CAN protest, buuuut..." bullshit

IF the GOP can't be allowed to win
THEN the Democrats need to win

We think and do whatever we want beyond that. Air our grievances, vote for better candidates down ballot, etc. But the GOP must continue to lose elections at any cost

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Telling people to vote while ignoring their concerns is not democracy.

But I'm not telling you to vote while ignoring your concerns.

I'm telling you to vote because of X,Y, and Z reasons. That is how democracy works.

Democracy is when you look at what the majority wants and do that.

And the majority of people wanted Hillary and wanted Biden over the progressives.

The ideal of representative democracy is that you look at what the majority wants, say you'll do that, win the election with that majority and then do what the majority wants.

So Jim Crow era was a thriving democracy?

1337toothbrush posted...

Voter turnout in primaries is even lower than the general election. So clearly something is preventing people from voting in primaries even more than the general.

Explain what it is.

Gesturing to vague election conspiracies is not acceptable in a progressive and pro-democracy movement post 2020.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Where have I demanded that everyone subscribes to my ideology unquestioningly?

What I'm saying here is that you guys are also engaging in vote shaming tactics.

Or more specifically, I think dismissing arguments as "vote shaming" is fucking stupid. I'm just trying to talk about why we should vote for Biden in 2024 and why its important to vote in general.

1337toothbrush posted...

People not voting is exercising their right to not have to vote.

And people telling you thats a fucking stupid idea is also people exercising their right to participate in the democratic process.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

So if progressives are a big enough block to swing the election, why aren't the democrats bothered to appeal them at all?

Biden's done nothing to appeal to progressives? The billions in student loan forgiveness, the billions in federal funding for green energy initiatives, the constant drumbeat for gun regulations...none of that means anything to you?

Gwynevere posted...

If you think people should just shut the f*** up and vote for Biden

I think people should just shut the fuck up and vote against Trump. At this stage in the game, I really shouldn't have to explain why.

1337toothbrush posted...

See, that's another thing. Republicans play dirty and they fight for every scrap of power they can get. Meanwhile democrats sit with their thumbs up their ass and claim they can't do anything ever.

So do progressives. Or have I missed Bernie doing anything differently than Schumer?

1337toothbrush posted...

Voter turnout in primaries is even lower than the general election. So clearly something is preventing people from voting in primaries even more than the general.

You're right, something is preventing people from voting in primaries. It's called apathy.

Shadow_Don posted...

Right. I said most people support Israel but are not on board with genocide. And I said it would be a failure on Biden if he lets it happen.

Still a dumb idea to let Trump win.

I blame Hillary the most for costing us Roe. Progressives who didn't vote also have some blame.

I don't think people not voting in 2024 are trying to destroy democracy. I'm merely explaining the consequences of letting trump win.

So would you blame Biden for going against the majority who want him to call for a ceasefire, losing some of their votes, letting Trump win, and destroying democracy? Because so far it sounds like you would blame the voters he lost.