Current Events > Do u think Israel is going to cost Biden the election?

(+) Yeah! (+)

MrMojoRising posted...

Lol, Joe's been watching my rights being taken away for the last 3 years and hasn't done anything about it. I'm supposed to think he's going to do something now?

Guess whose presidency helped tie Biden's hands.

Yazarogi posted...

what rights are those, do you care to elaborate?

what rights of mine are going to be taken away if trump wins? care to elaborate?

Trumble posted...

So if Israel continues to commit genocide, those who actively voted for a candidate who supported them are not responsible for it... But people who don't vote for either candidate are somehow responsible for what the winner does but only if the winner is the Republican guy?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/5393f05a.jpg

I honestly admire the arrogance some people ITT have. You're so fucking lucky your life won't be affected by a Christofascist dictator so you insist on telling people with LGBT loved ones that it doesn't matter who's in office.

I wish I could be so blas about ruining life for everyone else.

ellis123 posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/5393f05a.jpg

I don't approach the situation with a mentality of "I really like this one track regardless of what harm comes from taking it, so I'm going to pretend the only other tracks that exist are the even worse ones".

whitelytning posted...

No. RFK might.

RFK is going to take more from Trump than Biden. I was happy to hear RFK is getting on the ballot in North Carolina cause him and Trump are going to try to outdo each other in batshit insanity.

MrMojoRising posted...

what rights of mine are going to be taken away if trump wins? care to elaborate?

How about you stay on topic and answer my question first. Im not going to play games with you.

MrMojoRising posted...

what rights of mine are going to be taken away if trump wins? care to elaborate?

Okay the mask is coming off. This isnt about Biden and Israel, you just dont think Trump is bad.

MrMojoRising posted...

what rights of mine are going to be taken away if trump wins? care to elaborate?

Nice of you to confirm you don't actually have a dog in the race and are just here to jerk off.

MrMojoRising posted...

what rights of mine are going to be taken away if trump wins? care to elaborate?

Lmfao

Trumble posted...

I don't approach the situation with a mentality of "I really like this one track regardless of what harm comes from taking it, so I'm going to pretend the only other tracks that exist are the even worse ones".

I know how you think. Hence why I'm making fun of you.

Trumble posted...

I don't approach the situation with a mentality of "I really like this one track regardless of what harm comes from taking it, so I'm going to pretend the only other tracks that exist are the even worse ones".

It doesn't care how you approach the situation. That's how the situation is.

Yazarogi posted...

How about you stay on topic and answer my question first. Im not going to play games with you.

You want me to get me to answer all your hypotheticals but not explain yours?

Trumble posted...

So if Israel continues to commit genocide, those who actively voted for (and encouraged others to vote for) a candidate who supported them are not responsible for it... But people who don't vote for either candidate are somehow responsible for what the winner does but only if the winner is the Republican guy?

Nice word salad you got going there.

First, saying that Biden is supporting genocide is simply false. The world isn't black and white like that, and he's certainly doing more for peace than the alternative would.

Second, people who don't vote are indeed responsible for whatever the person who ends up winning does, regardless of who the winner is.

MrMojoRising posted...

You want me to get me to explain all your hypotheticals but not explain yours?

What rights would people have under a Trump administration, they would not have under a Biden administration?

Trumble posted...

I don't approach the situation with a mentality of "I really like this one track regardless of what harm comes from taking it, so I'm going to pretend the only other tracks that exist are the even worse ones".

So you live in the reality where there's a super secret third track that would solve everyone's problems magically?

MrMojoRising posted...

Yazarogi posted...

You want me to get me to answer all your hypotheticals but not explain yours?

It's not hypothetical. The Republicans are practically screaming it.

Tanthalas posted...

First, saying that Biden is supporting genocide is simply false.

He's providing military aid to a country that is borderline-openly engaging in genocide, using the military aid they have been provided.

There is no fucking way in hell that that can be interpreted as anything other than supporting genocide.

If you aren't willing to acknowledge something as simple as that, you are not worth engaging on this subject.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Okay the mask is coming off. This isnt about Biden and Israel, you just dont think Trump is bad.

Yep. Bingo. Had this guy pegged a while ago.

Trumble posted...

I don't approach the situation with a mentality of "I really like this one track regardless of what harm comes from taking it, so I'm going to pretend the only other tracks that exist are the even worse ones".

You can see the tracks. Its not like there is a third track that will magically appear if you squint hard enough.

Tanthalas posted...

Guess whose presidency helped tie Biden's hands.

So you want me to vote for a President with tied hands? Got it

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

These are 2 different arguments. Criticism of Biden is good, he needs to be criticized for his Israel stance. Theres no need to defend what hes doing there. Not voting is something else entirely.

Appreciate the answer, and I agree on the surface. The question however is how to actually prevent those people from not voting. Biden's actions are turning them away. There are very obvious steps he could take to take away the criticisms and win back the support - but people here would rather shout at protestors that continuing genocide is the only option.

Cemith posted...

I'm sorry that Trump warped the fabric of modern politics so irrevocably that now realistically the only choices we have is fascism and not fascism. But, yes, him being that fucking bad is the whole fucking point.

Biden didn't have to "earn my vote" because I'm not complicit in a fucking fascist rise to power. Biden didn't have to "earn my vote" because I can see the big picture and I'm not so far up my own ass that I'm going to sit be cool with my LGBT, non white, non religious friends and family be persecuted by an aspiring fascist.

We don't like fascism because it oppresses and kills many innocent people, right? Which is something that should always be resisted, right? Even when it's people who are not close to you?

I'd like to reiterate the point that telling people that they have to support genocide isn't actually a winning campaign strategy. There's no evidence whatsoever that Biden's unconditional support for Israel is necessary to win the election. Biden is not sending those bombs to Israel to save your friends and family from fascism.

There's a very obvious gap in logic that nobody seems to address; arguing that Biden's reelection is top priority AND arguing that it's okay for Biden to ignore the concerns of a large part of his voters, are mutually exclusive.

Cemith posted...

"Why is it never the GOP that has to change?"

Because I have no hope of successfully arguing to Republicans that killing brown children by the thousands is actually bad and should be resisted. I'd like to think Democrats agree with that but I might be wrong.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

These are 2 different arguments. Criticism of Biden is good, he needs to be criticized for his Israel stance. Theres no need to defend what hes doing there. Not voting is something else entirely.

Pledging to not vote at all or vote third party is a problem. Even if Bidens israel stance doesnt improve, hes still the better option than Trump. I will vote for Biden, and anyone who doesnt is complicit if Trump wins.

Cemith posted...

This right here is the most teeth grinding, hair-pullingly infuriating thing about abstaining voters.

I'm sorry that Trump warped the fabric of modern politics so irrevocably that now realistically the only choices we have is fascism and not fascism. But, yes, him being that fucking bad is the whole fucking point.

Biden didn't have to "earn my vote" because I'm not complicit in a fucking fascist rise to power. Biden didn't have to "earn my vote" because I can see the big picture and I'm not so far up my own ass that I'm going to sit be cool with my LGBT, non white, non religious friends and family be persecuted by an aspiring fascist.

It's that fucking simple. I'm not voting for Biden, I am voting against Trump. If you believe a 3rd party is the answer, you're a fool. And just as culpable if Trump wins.

I can't find the post but someone else said this ITT that I really like:

"Why is it never the GOP that has to change?"

Y'all would rather moan about dems even though Repubs want to set the world on fire.

McMarbles posted...

You dont seem to get it.
THERE ARE TWO OUTCOMES.
Outcome 1: Biden is elected. Things continue pretty much as they are, but theres at least some hope of getting somewhere.
Outcome 2: Trump is elected. Netanyahu gets carte blanche to do whatever he wants. Putin gets carte blanche to do what he wants. Trans genocide gets a go-ahead. Reproductive rights go on the trash heap. Project 25 is a go. Goodbye elections.
There is no magic outcome 3 where neither wins and a magical unicorn descends from the sky and farts out magic socialism.

Glad to see some users with common sense here.

This is the most important election ever. Anyone who doesn't want to see the democratic world falling apart needs to vote for Biden. Even if he's not perfect, but there is no alternative. Biden must win at all costs.

mistymermaid posted...

What rights would people have under a Trump administration, they would not have under a Biden administration?

To be fair, before Trump was first elected, being a racist was frowned upon. So yeah, another Trump presidency would certainly give assholes more "rights".

Cemith posted...

Yep. Bingo. Had this guy pegged a while ago.

The conservatrolls are a pestilence who plays games. If you let them, they'll string you along, refusing to tell you their actual political views.

Hornezz posted...

Because I have no hope of successfully arguing to Republicans that killing brown children by the thousands is actually bad and should be resisted. I'd like to think Democrats agree with that but I might be wrong.

"Because the party that can be reasoned with won't give me what I want, I instead choose to help the party that will never help me win!".

Outstanding logic you guys have.

bobbycorwin posted...

You can see the tracks. Its not like there is a third track that will magically appear if you squint hard enough.

I can see a drawing of the tracks which the person trying to manipulate the perception of things can choose what they do or don't include on it. In the real world situation, there would be multiple other tracks that the artist chose not to include in their recreation because they want to convince people those tracks don't exist; because despite their preferred track having some serious known flaws, they can't bear the thought of any other track being taken. Not even a better one.

MrMojoRising posted...

So you want me to vote for a President with tied hands? Got it

Good fucking god dude lol. You're hopeless.

Trumble posted...

In the real world situation, there would be multiple other tracks

In what real world version of American presidential elections are there anything other than 2 outcomes?

You could simply explain what you think the other viable option is or what you think we should do if Trump wins

ellis123 posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/5393f05a.jpg

I mean, there is also a third track where Joe Biden listens to his own voter base (and perhaps his conscience?), decides to deliver on his promise to 'put human rights at the center of his foreign policy' and decides to stop sending arms to a country that's currently committing genocide. Not only would that wipe away the largest criticism he has coming into this election, win back some voters - he might actually even save some Palestinian lives in the process.

However, sadly, that track is hidden behind a group of devout supporters who are shouting up and down that the track doesn't exist and that you have to support genocide otherwise you're a fascist.

Heineken14 posted...

In what real world version of American presidential elections are there anything other than 2 outcomes?

Show me what part of the constitution or federal law says that a third party's victory would be invalid.

Because it seems to me that nothing is actually preventing it; Americans just refuse to acknowledge the option exists.

Hornezz posted...

We don't like fascism because it oppresses and kills many innocent people, right? Which is something that should always be resisted, right? Even when it's people who are not close to you?

Bingo

Hornezz posted...

I'd like to reiterate the point that telling people that they have to support genocide isn't actually a winning campaign strategy.

It is not about Biden. I don't know how much more clear I can make this. It is fascism or not fascism. I would take a day old ham sandwich over Biden. The answer is easy.

Hornezz posted...

Biden is not sending those bombs to Israel to save your friends and family from fascism.

But him being in office prevents my brother and his girlfriend from being put in camps. Trump's being in office doesn't.

Hornezz posted...

There's a very obvious gap in logic that nobody seems to address; arguing that Biden's reelection is top priority AND arguing that it's okay for Biden to ignore the concerns of a large part of his voters, are mutually exclusive.

It is not about Biden. It is about preventing a fascist rise to power. Criticism of Biden is fine. Go nuts. But let's not pretend he's not the best choice presented to us.

I don't mean to words in your mouth, but it seems to me like you think Gaza is on the table for either candidate, it's not. The only chance Israel changes is Biden. It preventing gaza's genocide is what you prefer, then Biden is still the clear choice.

Trumble posted...

He's providing military aid to a country that is borderline-openly engaging in genocide, using the military aid they have been provided.

There is no fucking way in hell that that can be interpreted as anything other than supporting genocide.

If you aren't willing to acknowledge something as simple as that, you are not worth engaging on this subject.

The world isn't black and white like that. Whether you want to admit it or not, Israel was attacked and the US has a duty to support them.

Could Biden try to pressure Israel more? Certainly. Is Biden committing genocide? Only a child would agree with that.

So, I'm not going to acknowledge something that is only simple if you choose to ignore reality.

Kaldrenthebold posted...

Good fucking god dude lol. You're hopeless.

me when I see Biden giving Israel another 18B in weapons transfers so they can bomb more kids

Trumble posted...

Show me what part of the constitution or federal law says that a third party's victory would be invalid.

Because it seems to me that nothing is actually preventing it; Americans just refuse to acknowledge the option exists.

So you don't live in the real world and wish for sunshine and lolipops. Got it.

Trumble posted...

I can see a drawing of the tracks which the person trying to manipulate the perception of things can choose what they do or don't include on it. In the real world situation, there would be multiple other tracks that the artist chose not to include in their recreation because they want to convince people those tracks don't exist; because despite their preferred track having some serious known flaws, they can't bear the thought of any other track being taken. Not even a better one.

Ive yet to hear anyone with your position actually explain what the alternative is beside some vague assertion that everyone can magically choose a third party candidate that a majority will agree on.

Trumble posted...

Show me what part of the constitution or federal law says that a third party's victory would be invalid.

Because it seems to me that nothing is actually preventing it; Americans just refuse to acknowledge the option exists.

Third party couldn't even show up for Hillary vs Trump. You're trying to bet Glass Joe beats Mike Tyson and act surprised when no one throws their money away with you.

Tanthalas posted...

"Because the party that can be reasoned with won't give me what I want, I instead choose to help the party that will never help me win!".

Outstanding logic you guys have.

Biden sending bombs to Israel isn't winning him voters.
Telling people that genocide is the only option isn't either.

I'm not the one obstructing a Biden win here.

Hornezz posted...

I mean, there is also a third track where Joe Biden listens to his own voter base (and perhaps his conscience?), decides to deliver on his promise to 'put human rights at the center of his foreign policy' and decides to stop sending arms to a country that's currently committing genocide. Not only would that wipe away the largest criticism he has coming into this election, win back some voters - he might actually even save some Palestinian lives in the process.

However, sadly, that track is hidden behind a group of devout supporters who are shouting up and down that the track doesn't exist and that you have to support genocide otherwise you're a fascist.

So what you are saying is that you plan on voting for Biden.

MrMojoRising posted...

me when I see Biden giving Israel another 18B in weapons transfers so they can bomb more kids

What's your face when Trump wins and does worse shit over there and then rat fucks America again over here?

Tanthalas posted...

Israel was attacked and the US has a duty to support them.

Israel being attacked does not justify a genocide that was already underway before said attack and hugely ramped up afterwards. And the US has no duty to support even legitimate self-defense (to be clear I'm not saying they shouldn't do so, just that they have no obligation), let alone what Israel is doing now (and if they did have such a duty, they'd owe it FAR more to Ukraine, yet the aid being provided to them is fuck all in comparison).

MrMojoRising posted...

So you want me to vote for a President with tied hands? Got it

Lol, you complain about Biden not helping you.

I point out that the guy you're trying to help win made it so Biden couldn't help you.

Your response: I'm going to help the guy doing me harm win!

Heineken14 posted...

What's your face when Trump wins and does worse shit over there and then rat fucks America again over here?

That poster does not care. They dont think Trump is different than Biden. Just stop responding to them, its useless.

Cemith posted...

But him being in office prevents my brother and his girlfriend from being put in camps. Trump's being in office doesn't.

All great arguments to tell Biden he needs to do anything he can to win voters to his side.

We're back in the same 'but Trump worse'-loop and ignoring the part that Biden's refusal to budge on Israel is actually what's bringing a Trump win closer. No amount of summarizing the awful things Trump would do is worth anything when what you're arguing for is actually not preventing that.

Heineken14 posted...

What's your face when Trump wins and does worse shit over there and then rat fucks America again over here?

I asked these people the other day what they plan on doing if trump wins and they all had a meltdown.

They. Dont. Care.

Hornezz posted...

Biden sending bombs to Israel isn't winning him voters.
Telling people that genocide is the only option isn't either.

I'm not the one obstructing a Biden win here.

So we're back to: "Why aren't you asking the GOP to be better then? Why is it always the Democratic Party that has to work for your vote?"

Heineken14 posted...

What's your face when Trump wins and does worse shit over there and then rat fucks America again over here?

"I can't believe Biden let him win because he wanted to help a genocide so bad"

Trumble posted...

Show me what part of the constitution or federal law says that a third party's victory would be invalid.

Because it seems to me that nothing is actually preventing it; Americans just refuse to acknowledge the option exists.

That hypothetical is not the present state of politics. At what point in American history, have there ever been more than two political parties with a statistical probability of victory in the presidential election?

hockeybabe89 posted...

I wasn't minimizing it. Israel has been genociding Palestinians since before we were alive, and America has blindly supported them every step of the way.

If Biden supports Israel and Trump supports Israel, we have to look at more than a single issue and make the rational choice that causes the least damage, not essentially opt out and leave it up to chance.

This.

I am choosing between someone facilitating genocide and someone happily faciliatating Genocide who adds more genocides and atrocities to the list. I do not support genocide but our political system strips a lot of agency from the populace. Money influences it too much and guess what I'm not rich. Winner takes all systems + the electoral college often effectively nullify my vote. The primary system often decides a candidate before many of us ever get to vote. Etc etc.

I did not want Biden to run again. I wanted someone better. The system did not allow a viable alernative. I won't vote for Biden because he is who I want. I vote for him because Trump is so much worse.

I'm not happy we only get two real choices every time but if there is no viable alternative come election day its sheer laziness and cowardice to not decide which is less bad.

A protest vote against Biden or a abstention will do NOTHING to help Gaza but it will get lot of people here in the US rights stripped away on top of doubling down on Israel support.

Sorry for choosing to vote for a functional human being who supports the same fucked regime every president has for decades over a demented confirmed rapist grifter wannabe Hitler, who supports said regime with less reservations and a tendency to encourage violence and racism.

If you can pull a viable miracle candidate out of your ass who firmly supports Palestine and has a clear path to victory I'll vote for them.

I'm not getting the LGBTQ+ people in my family oppressed, or killed and having my voting rights(and many other rights) taken away so I can pretend I took a moral stand when I know full well not voting Biden will acheive NOTHING for Gaza. Trying to be moral in an imperfect world often means swallowing bitter pills to avoid something even worse.

Results>>>>>>>>Moral Grandstanding. Even if the results are merely status quo over taking the current situation and letting diet coke Hitler take the reins.

Pressuring Biden is fine I am not opposed to that. Actually following up on not voting or voting for Trump/Some third party polling at 1% is morally unacceptable.