Current Events > Some1 turned the Biden Palestine vote argument into the trolley problem 4 visual

(+) Yeah! (+)

Cemith posted...

I didn't say he didn't need to. I said he shouldn't have to, because -

Then why bring up the risk of him losing voters in the first place? Biden shouldn't have to appeal to anti-genocide voters, yet at the same time he has to support Israel to appeal to pro-genocide voters? Explain this contradiction?

If Biden has no choice but to alienate a part of his base, then surely he should pick the option that (1) risks losing the least amount of voters, and(2) doesn't involve the death of tens of thousands of people.

hockeybabe89 posted...

would tell those people even harder to shut the fuck up and vote against Trump.

Cool. Then join in on pressuring Biden into changing his stance so you no longer have to yell stfu at people protesting against a genocide. Instead, direct that anger towards Biden for refusing to budge and the people who want more bombs to be dropped.

Hornezz posted...

Then why bring up the risk of him losing voters in the first place?

I literally never have. I can acknowledge that he may lose voters even though I don't think said voters needed a reason to vote for him other than the fact that he isn't Trump. I have, from the outset, said that no matter the democratic candidate, Trump needs to be voted against.

Hornezz posted...

If Biden has no choice but to alienate a part of his base, then surely he should pick the option that (1) risks losing the least amount of voters, and(2) doesn't involve the death of tens of thousands of people.

I agree. I think he should stop the genocide.

I will still vote against Trump.

Cemith posted...

I agree. I think he should stop the genocide.

I will still vote against Trump.

Same. At least with Biden we could still convince other nations to rally for a ceasefire, continue further sanctions and with a strong democratic congress after the election actually push legislation to reflect this. Not at all so with a Trump scenario.

Let's just keep this simple. Despite Biden supporting genocide by sending weapons to Israel and knowing all we have for this election is just two candidates winning (Biden/Trump). Will you still vote for Biden?

Hornezz posted...

Cool. Then join in on pressuring Biden into changing his stance so you no longer have to yell stfu at people protesting against a genocide. Instead, direct that anger towards Biden for refusing to budge and the people who want more bombs to be dropped.

I hate Biden, but I still have to vote for him no matter what. He shouldn't need to earn our votes because we shouldn't be voting for him, but against Trump.

rideshort posted...

Let's just keep this simple. Despite Biden supporting genocide by sending weapons to Israel and knowing all we have for this election is just two candidates winning (Biden/Trump). Will you still vote for Biden?

Yes. Will you rescind your vote for Biden knowing full well that Trump will absolutely obliterate Gaza with glee, as well as the rights of domestic minorities, LGBT, and women?

Cemith posted...

Yes. Will you rescind your vote for Biden knowing full well that Trump will absolutely obliterate Gaza with glee, as well as the rights of domestic minorities, LGBT, and women?

I'm no fool. I care more for domestic issues than foreign ones that will directly affect me here. I hate what's going on in Gaza and how the Israeli's continue their atrocities, but I cannot over look how a strong Democratic majority and president is needed in this country more.

So I will for vote Biden and vote Blue down the line. I will not allow Republicans to continue damaging this country and the world by abstaining or voting for them. I will continue to pressure my representatives here in the DMV to push Biden towards a ceasefire and encourage others to do the same.

Even I lost my appetite for these threads, they are basically the same 2-4 posts over and over. Impressed by some of yall

I don't get the point of these arguments. It comes down to funamentally different moral apparatuses. Some believe in taking greater good/necessary evil action to minimize harm while others feel one shouldn't endorse any harm at all (regardless of how much damage occurs in the absence of their participation). It's basically a choice between a better world and personal innocence. I don't really see a way to reconcile these views.

I still haven't heard anyone explain how loudly and publicly declaring that we'll vote for Biden regardless of what he does or doesn't do is supposed to help stop the genocide or lead to ANY good outcome in the medium or long term.

What's stopping Biden from deciding he only has to be 0.0001 better than Trump at that point?

That's what Democrats have been doing since Clinton at least and we've all paid dearly for it. It's not free to operate that way. It's not some brilliant strategy. It causes lasting damage, in terms of policy, in terms of the party's reputation, and in terms of democratic participation. When parties and candidates have captive populations and no incentive to improve, history shows that they stagnate and popular participation dies. If you're mad about the huge swaths of non-voters, this "vote only against the Republican and ignore what the Democrat does" is literally reason number one why they don't vote! And you're stating it baldly and expecting people to swallow it! That itself will bring fascism, if not this time, then soon.

The one thing I can guarantee is that ordinary people won't accept that. They absolutely won't. They'll check out entirely before accepting that.

legendary_zell posted...

I still haven't heard anyone explain how loudly and publicly declaring that we'll vote for Biden regardless of what he does or doesn't do is supposed to help stop the genocide or lead to ANY good outcome in the medium or long term.

What's stopping Biden from deciding he only has to be 0.0001 better than Trump at that point?

That's what Democrats have been doing since Clinton at least and we've all paid dearly for it. It's not free to operate that way. It's not some brilliant strategy. It causes lasting damage, in terms of policy, in terms of the party's reputation, and in terms of democratic participation. When parties and candidates have captive populations and no incentive to improve, history shows that they stagnate and popular participation dies. If you're mad about the huge swaths of non-voters, this "vote only against the Republican and ignore what the Democrat does" is literally reason number one why they don't vote! And you're stating it baldly and expecting people to swallow it! That itself will bring fascism, if not this time, then soon.

The one thing I can guarantee is that ordinary people won't accept that. They absolutely won't. They'll check out entirely before accepting that.

I'm gonna fucking die if the GOP wins, so I don't give a shit if that sends the wrong message to the Democrats. Fuck this fucking country for forcing me into this position.

It's so insane that people can get jaded enough by the political process that they'd rather give up and die than continue treading water. Apparently politics overrides our natural human instincts of survival.

legendary_zell posted...

It causes lasting damage, in terms of policy, in terms of the party's reputation, and in terms of democratic participation. When parties and candidates have captive populations and no incentive to improve, history shows that they stagnate and popular participation dies.

Great point. A recent poll said that interest in this year's election is even lower than for Hillary vs. Trump. That's inconceivable levels of apathy. Alarmist rhetoric isn't energizing people right now.

I'm not really sure what can be done when acknowledging neither party is likely to win a cooperative Congress this year. I guess Dems just needed to do more back when they had both the House and Senate, but Manchin and Sinema ruined it (good riddance to these scumbags).

Doe posted...

Even I lost my appetite for these threads, they are basically the same 2-4 posts over and over. Impressed by some of yall

I'm definitely over it. I won't be participating in any after this one.

hockeybabe89 posted...

I'm gonna fucking die if the GOP wins, so I don't give a shit if that sends the wrong message to the Democrats. Fuck this fucking country for forcing me into this position.

It's so insane that people can get jaded enough by the political process that they'd rather give up and die than continue treading water.

Unfortunately, a lot of transgender leftists would rather do just that than vote for Biden out of sheer irrational spite. The fact that they believe he's no better than Trump when it comes to transgender rights really says a lot about how toxic American leftism has become compared to their international counterparts.

hockeybabe89 posted...

It's so insane that people can get jaded enough by the political process that they'd rather give up and die than continue treading water.

They will be fine, its not their own lives they gamble with.

Diceheist posted...

Alarmist rhetoric

Its not alarmist though.

Shadow_Don posted...

Its not alarmist though.

Truthfully yes, we all need to be far more alarmed than we are and maybe we'd actually be able to fix the country. I guess the issue is half-assed alarmism that focuses on a select few issues while telling you to accept stagnation elsewhere.

Bernie supporters were alarmed about everything but that was too much alarmism for Dems. But all of a sudden you gotta be super alarmed in the general. Eh. Maybe the mood whiplash is what's not really resonating with people.

Shadow_Don posted...

They will be fine, its not their own lives they gamble with.

Its not alarmist though.

Seriously what the fuck is up with supposed leftists in these topics always downplaying trump? Very sus.

Some leftists have given up on electoralism and now feel that accelerationism is their only chance of bringing about the revolution.

cjsdowg posted...

So what is your solution since the current admin have been attacking peaceful protesters.

Vote.

Everybody fucking vote.

Diceheist posted...

Bernie supporters were alarmed about everything but that was too much alarmism for Dems. But all of a sudden you gotta be super alarmed in the general. Eh. Maybe the mood whiplash is what's not really resonating with people.

The fuck are you even talking about?

And Bernie himself was pleading for people to vote Hillary and Biden in order to stop trump. I guess he was being "alarmist"

divot1338 posted...

Vote blue.

Everybody fucking vote blue.

Fixed it for you. Unfortunately, certain people refuse to do that out of an irrational need to virtue signal.

divot1338 posted...

Vote.

Everybody fucking vote.

See this is why these threads are like crack. A guy point blank asks the question "what is your solution since the current admin have been attacking peaceful protesters".

A coherent answer would be something like "I don't have a great solution for this issue, but I think the current administration should still be voted for as a harm reduction tactic because the only viable alternative would use much more violence and repression."

Instead you get "the solution to the current administration's allowance for violence is to vote for the current administration", which of course will elicit a half dozen more bewildered responses.

hockeybabe89 posted...

I'm gonna fucking die if the GOP wins, so I don't give a shit if that sends the wrong message to the Democrats. Fuck this fucking country for forcing me into this position.

It's so insane that people can get jaded enough by the political process that they'd rather give up and die than continue treading water. Apparently politics overrides our natural human instincts of survival.

That's reality though. We're both in very real danger in the short term if Trump wins. Life and death for you and career for sure and possibly life and death for me as well if things really go off the rails. But the status quo and pledging votes also presents serious short term risks as well and has huge long term ones too. That's why the only rational thing to do is to get off this course! That's what I've been saying this whole time.

A Biden win on the current course is not at all guaranteed and sets us up for an even worse situation and increased apathy next time. And the Republican Party will be even worse at that time if history is any guide. So it'll be a genocide stained Democratic Party vs an even more fascist Republican Party, with even more of the population blackpilled despite the stakes. That's what we're looking at right now, we should do anything to get off that course without shooting ourselves in the foot.

Doe posted...

"what is the solution to the current administration shutting down peaceful protestors".

The Biden administration isn't shutting down protests lmfao

Shadow_Don posted...

The Biden administration isn't shutting down protests lmfao

Apologies for paraphrasing, but let's not pretend Biden didn't broadly refer to the protests as antisemitic, please.

More of a fan of this version. Not going through all that to see if it was posted earlier.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/4/4344eb66.jpg

Shadow_Don posted...

The fuck are you even talking about?

And Bernie himself was pleading for people to vote Hillary and Biden in order to stop trump. I guess he was being "alarmist"

I'm referring to how Bernie complained about money in politics, corporate welfare, a weakening social safety net, warmongering, waves of people losing their health coverage during a national pandemic because it was tied to jobs lost during lockdown, destructive voting records, etc. but people just collectively decided his complaints weren't serious enough to justify a political revolution.

Alarmism is relative. If a specific person doesn't care about an issue or is focused on another one then any complaint may come off as alarmist to them. I don't mean to downplay anyone's concerns from an objective perspective. I'm simply saying increasing amounts of people are not caring, regardless of the legitimacy of the message sent to them.

Doe posted...

Apologies for paraphrasing, but let's not pretend Biden didn't broadly refer to the protests as antisemitic, please.

Funnily enough, the poster you were originally responding to was completely correct considering republican governors literally did send in police to mass arrest protestors.

If you don't want your protests stopped then yea you should probably vote for democrats.

Doe posted...

Apologies for paraphrasing, but let's not pretend Biden didn't broadly refer to the protests as antisemitic, please.

And yet, that party still isn't the one promising to outlaw protesting and systemically strip tens of millions of Americans of rights because they think anyone who opposes them is a lesser being.

If democrats can threaten us with republicans every single election, what's their incentive to do better? Moreover, if that's the strategy, and given that the two-party system will guarantee a republican victory at some point, what's stopping project 2025 from being project 2029 or project 2033 or project 2037? Feels like we're just delaying things instead of actually fixing them.

1337toothbrush posted...

If democrats can threaten us with republicans every single election, what's their incentive to do better? Moreover, if that's the strategy, and given that the two-party system will guarantee a republican victory at some point, what's stopping project 2025 from being project 2029 or project 2033 or project 2037? Feels like we're just delaying things instead of actually fixing them.

The Democrats aren't the ones threatening us! I'm fucking alarmed by how unalarmed the Dems are about this election! Project 2025 should be getting posted all over the place to highlight how dire things are! And that isn't fucking happening for some reason!

But at least you have proven you are another fake leftist who views the very real and imminent threat of the GOP as Democrat fearmongering.

Describe how the Democrats losing would get us closer to ending the GOP.

I love when disgruntled Republicans like to chime in about how we clearly cant trust Democrats either because of what the GOP has done.

How about fix your own party and stop helping with ours?

hockeybabe89 posted...

The Democrats aren't the ones threatening us! I'm fucking alarmed by how unalarmed the Dems are about this election! Project 2025 should be getting posted all over the place to highlight how dire things are! And that isn't fucking happening for some reason!

Well they're not going to go into detail because that would mean them actually doing something about it. Instead they'll say things like "trump is dangerous" and "we need to stop trump" because the only solution they propose is "vote for us".

hockeybabe89 posted...

But at least you have proven you are another fake leftist who views the very real and imminent threat of the GOP as Democrat fearmongering.

I'm a fake leftist because I want real solutions and not just "vote harder" while democrats continue to do nothing when voted in?

hockeybabe89 posted...

Describe how the Democrats losing would get us closer to ending the GOP.

Nobody is arguing for that. We all agree on voting for democrats every single time. Now describe how the democrats winning would get us closer to ending the republican party.

Diceheist posted...

I don't get the point of these arguments. It comes down to funamentally different moral apparatuses. Some believe in taking greater good/necessary evil action to minimize harm while others feel one shouldn't endorse any harm at all (regardless of how much damage occurs in the absence of their participation). It's basically a choice between a better world and personal innocence. I don't really see a way to reconcile these views.

The people getting arrested for protesting, getting killed for being an aid worker, theyre acting to make the world better, arguably more than I am with my 1 vote against Trump. I wish I could convince them to vote for Biden but I dont fault them for not.

The people sitting at home like me that also dont want to vote for Biden, they dont have personal innocence. Doing nothing while people suffer is its own form of immorality. The good men that did nothing arent good men.

Wait. Why do we all agree on voting for Democrats every single time? I thought that teaches Democrats bad lessons and actually accelerates the GOP fascist takeover?

If that's not true, then I was right the entire time and there is no point to disagreeing with me.

And no shit we have to do more than vote. Doesn't change the fact that we need to vote.

hockeybabe89 posted...

Wait. Why do we all agree on voting for Democrats every single time? I thought that teaches Democrats bad lessons and actually accelerates the GOP fascist takeover?

If that's not true, then I was right the entire time and there is no point to disagreeing with me.

And no shit we have to do more than vote. Doesn't change the fact that we need to vote.

Just because we agree on voting democrat every single time, doesn't mean that people at large will. There's also the problem where guaranteeing your vote means to democrats that they can take your vote for granted. Given that democrats have all the power here, what can they do to stop the genocide?

1337toothbrush posted...

Well they're not going to go into detail because that would mean them actually doing something about it. Instead they'll say things like "trump is dangerous" and "we need to stop trump" because the only solution they propose is "vote for us".

So they're threatening us by being deliberately vague and treating this like any old election?

Shouldn't they go all in on the fear and then do nothing anyway since they are still better than the GOP?

"Trump stinks" is a lot less alarming than "the GOP is forcing women to die in childbirth, and they are going to annihilate all LGBTQ people" How does vague status quo nothingness motivate people more than direct and real fear?

1337toothbrush posted...

Just because we agree on voting democrat every single time, doesn't mean that people at large will. There's also the problem where guaranteeing your vote means to democrats that they can take your vote for granted. Given that democrats have all the power here, what can they do to stop the genocide?

That's independent from the election for me, so I can't tell you. The only thing on my mind for mid November is the GOP being defeated.

1337toothbrush posted...

There's also the problem where guaranteeing your vote means to democrats that they can take your vote for granted.

Have you learned nothing from last 10 years? The tea party took over Republican Party by being the reliable voters primary challengers fought over. Thats the strategy for taking over the party.

It's also telling that the only question that's ever brought up is "how can we make the Democrats change?" And not, "why are the Republicans constantly being awful insurrectionist shitheels?"

In a perfect world, the Republicans realize they've hitched their wagon to a dying horse, and become the better party. Then we can rely on Democrats actually leveraging their favor.

And in a civilized world, each party would bring something different to the table instead of one being the party of rights and one being the party of Trump. Then they can hold themselves accountable in a beautiful seesaw of politics.

But that's not going to happen, no party will ever be 100% up to any one person standards. What's important is always and forever the defeating of fascism.

For as long as Republicans are advocating for fascist takeovers, a democrat will never need to earn my vote. They've earned it by not being fascist.

bfslick50 posted...

Have you learned nothing from last 10 years? The tea party took over Republican Party by being the reliable voters primary challengers fought over. Thats the strategy for taking over the party.

They also pushed out anyone who didn't agree with them. Meanwhile for democrats it's "vote blue even if poo" and to apparently accept genocide.

hockeybabe89 posted...

So they're threatening us by being deliberately vague and treating this like any old election?

Shouldn't they go all in on the fear and then do nothing anyway since they are still better than the GOP?

"Trump stinks" is a lot less alarming than "the GOP is forcing women to die in childbirth, and they are going to annihilate all LGBTQ people" How does vague status quo nothingness motivate people more than direct and real fear?

People absolutely have been bringing up all of this, and the answer every time is BUT GENOCIDE.
Because they dont care about LGBTQ+ lives, they dont care about Ukraine, they dont care about reproductive rights, they dont care about climate change, and to be perfectly honest, they dont care about Palestine. They care about justifying their own laziness and apathy.

McMarbles posted...

People absolutely have been bringing up all of this, and the answer every time is BUT GENOCIDE.
Because they dont care about LGBTQ+ lives, they dont care about Ukraine, they dont care about reproductive rights, they dont care about climate change, and to be perfectly honest, they dont care about Palestine. They care about justifying their own laziness and apathy.

The democratic party in a nutshell, except they don't even pretend to care about genocide.

bfslick50 posted...

Have you learned nothing from last 10 years? The tea party took over Republican Party by being the reliable voters primary challengers fought over. Thats the strategy for taking over the party.

African Americans are the most reliable voting block, and the Dems take that demo for granted. They are not fighting to keep those votes. Biden even said .. If you have a problem figuring out whether youre for me or Trump, then you aint black. Being a voting block that always votes Dems get the dem to not go all out for you. Dems will go all out for the people who hate them, and who hate their base. (note this is not an endorsement of Republicans, they are 99x worse in most things , expect when it comes to doing what their base wants. IT just so happens that many people in their base wants horrible things to do be done.

bfslick50 posted...

Have you learned nothing from last 10 years? The tea party took over Republican Party by being the reliable voters primary challengers fought over. Thats the strategy for taking over the party.

They were reliable general voters because their guys actually won the primaries. Their guys won the primaries because billionaires like Koch, Adelson, and Murdoch funded them against the establishment, the reverse of what happens in Democratic primaries.

Progressives don't have billionaires, corporations, super PACs, cable networks, mainstream media. Tools are limited.

Cemith posted...

It's also telling that the only question that's ever brought up is "how can we make the Democrats change?" And not, "why are the Republicans constantly being awful insurrectionist shitheels?"

There's nothing telling about about people not asking questions with obvious answers. Republican voters want their party to do those things. 70 to 80% of them believe Trump got cheated and 64% of them do not want the GOP to work with Biden.

The answer is simply that conservatives want corrupt radical autocratic nationalist leadership, probably because astroturfing billionaires, demagogues, and conspiracy theorists used fear of cultural change to condition them in that direction. Politicians represent voters. Simple situation.

Diceheist posted...

They were reliable general voters because their guys actually won the primaries.

Nope. Their guy lost in 08 and 12 but they definitely showed up to vote against Obama.

Their guys won the primaries because billionaires like Koch, Adelson, and Murdoch funded them against the establishment, the reverse of what happens in Democratic primaries.

Progressives don't have billionaires, corporations, super PACs, cable networks, mainstream media. Tools are limited.

Boebart and Greene are not in Congress because a billionaire plucked them out of obscurity. They are there because they appeal to primary voters. Many states still havent had their primary. Being a reliable primary voter is the better strategy. Young people are traditionally unreliable voters which is why they are often ignored by politicians. That appears to be changing with current generation.

bfslick50 posted...

Nope. Their guy lost in 08 and 12 but they definitely showed up to vote against Obama.

Trump got more votes than Romney and McCain both times he ran. Clearly some radicals weren't falling in line for the establishment.

bfslick50 posted...

Boebart and Greene are not in Congress because a billionaire plucked them out of obscurity. They are there because they appeal to primary voters.

Boebert and Greene ran years after Trump took over and normalized MAGA. I'm talking about how the Tea Party went from nothing to relevance.

Diceheist posted...

Trump got more votes than Romney and McCain both times he ran. Clearly some radicals weren't falling in line for the establishment.

Thats just a function of time.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/6/64aea61b.jpg

divot1338 posted...

Thats just a function of time.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/6/64aea61b.jpg

Perhaps, but I sincerely doubt Trump got every single voter who Romney or McCain got. He probably lost a decent amount of sane conservatives but gained a larger amount of extremist conservatives in their place.

For example, Hillary supporters made up 16% of McCain voters in 2008 ( https://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-were-those-clinton-mccain-crossover-voters/ ). Trump likely didn't inherit much of that group, mainly since he was running against Hillary herself. He had to make the deficit up elsewhere.

Diceheist posted...

Perhaps, but I sincerely doubt Trump got every single voter who Romney or McCain got. He probably lost a decent amount of sane conservatives but gained a larger amount of extremist conservatives in their place.

For example, Hillary supporters made up 16% of McCain voters in 2008 ( https://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-were-those-clinton-mccain-crossover-voters/ ). Trump likely didn't inherit much of that group, mainly since he was running against Hillary herself. He had to make the deficit up elsewhere.

Eh, theres a good chance a large chunk of that 16% took issue with Obamas race in which case they would vote Trump.

Abstainers when trump wins

REEE why did Biden make me do this!!!