Current Events > Another pet peeve of mine: Samey fantasy universes

(+) Yeah! (+)

It shouldn't be possible. Fantasy universes are literally universes that can be literally anything.

But

European castles
European towns
Wizards, dragons
Magic that for some reason follows rules
Unique swords with names and a vague hint that they have some sort of will

Lord of the Rings was good. It's true. Can we PLEASE stop ripping it off now?

Check out Kingdoms of Amalur

But I like all of those.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

Magic that for some reason follows rules

huh?

Tanthalas posted...

But I like all of those.

Sure. I do too. It was cool about a hundred years ago when it first got published. It's the literal thousands of literal copy/pastes how little deviation from the exact formula there is in high fantasy that makes me sad.

Theres like one notable mainstream work that ripped off of Tolkien, and its Game of Thrones. There are plenty of other fantasy worlds that dont revolve around Tolkiens awesome work.

specialkid8 posted...

huh?

You know, like consuming weird little glowing crystals or corrupting your soul or being physically strenuous. Following rules.

It's magic! It shouldn't have to follow rules. That's what defines magic. The genie of the lamp, for example, just does whatever the hell is wished of him without observing conservation of energy or getting tired.

Sure, there's no reason you can't come up with a system for how it works. But you don't have to. It's just that Lord of the Rings did and everyone just copy/pastes that.

Why do so many sci-fi books focus on robots and space travel? From Earth to the Moon was 150+ years ago people, and like, Philip K. Dick completely covered everything to do with robots even remotely possible.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

You know, like consuming weird little glowing crystals or corrupting your soul or being physically strenuous. Following rules.

It's magic! It shouldn't have to follow rules. That's what defines magic. The genie of the lamp, for example, just does whatever the hell is wished of him without observing conservation of energy or getting tired.

Sure, there's no reason you can't come up with a system for how it works. But you don't have to. It's just that Lord of the Rings did and everyone just copy/pastes that.

So, TC just admitted to never reading Lord of the Rings in this post. /topic?

tri-sapphire posted...

Why do so many sci-fi books focus on robots and space travel? From Earth to the Moon was 150+ years ago people, and like, Philip K. Dick completely covered everything to do with robots even remotely possible.

You do at least have a number of sci-fi subgenres though. Space Fantasy and robotic uprising/utopia are common ones, but so are cyberpunk, monsters/aliens, biohazards, doomsday devices and deep sea exploration.

tri-sapphire posted...

So, TC just admitted to never reading Lord of the Rings in this post. /topic?

I never read Lord of the Rings. If it didn't actually do these things, then I guess I was mistaken.

Does this change the fact that high fantasy has an extremely limited set of tropes that it hardly ever deviates from? Or that it should be by far the most diverse genre?

Ff16 had the most boring ye olde euro setting ive ever seen. Peasants in rags, old grey towns and castles, swampy bogs. Oh, and my second least favorite trope. Boring vaguely-arabian desert town with people in turbans and replace grey with brown.

Credits is a currency in a sci-fi setting.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

You do at least have a number of sci-fi subgenres though. Space Fantasy and robotic uprising/utopia are common ones, but so are cyberpunk, monsters/aliens, biohazards, doomsday devices and deep sea exploration.

You've also got Modern Fantasy, Sci-Fi/Fantasy hybrids, Magical Realism, and so much more in the Fantasy genre than what the TC is whining about.

A lot of it is a lack of creativity, but I think a lot of it also capitalizes on most peoples' tendency to lean into things that are familiar. When a world becomes super alien, it's hard to imagine, and even harder to place yourself in. It can be done, and has been done well, but I think it's much more difficult.

I don't really care much about this, myself.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

I never read Lord of the Rings. If it didn't actually do these things, then I guess I was mistaken.

Does this change the fact that high fantasy has an extremely limited set of tropes that it hardly ever deviates from? Or that it should be by far the most diverse genre?

No, but it does completely invalidate your point about magic systems, as LotR didn't really have one. Or European castles for that matter, as the architecture was much more grandiose and fantastic than that...or even any European towns even...not to mention that unique weapons are as old as fucking Gilgamesh.

Again, your topic is moot and dead.

tri-sapphire posted...

No, but it does completely invalidate your point about magic systems, as LotR didn't really have one. Or European castles for that matter, as the architecture was much more grandiose and fantastic than that...or even any European towns even...not to mention that unique weapons are as old as fucking Gilgamesh.

Again, your topic is moot and dead.

Pack it up boys

There are no samey fantasy universes because tri-sapphire read Lord of the Rings and confirms I got some details wrong.

Most people aren't creative enough to come up with a new world that is different from what we already know.

Even if they are it can be hit or miss.

Medieval with magic is tried and true safe.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

Pack it up boys

There are no samey fantasy universes because tri-sapphire read Lord of the Rings and confirms I got some details wrong.

Your only decent point is wizards and dragons.

Read A Wizard of Eathsea, Dragonriders of Pern, Dragonlance, Harry Potter, The Dresden Files, and the Wild Magic quartet to see how varied that single point can be.

Hell, even the Song of Ice and Fire series does things differently compared to most fantasy stories.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

Magic that for some reason follows rules

Whats wrong with hard magic systems? It is so much better than magic can do anything.

Should authors be pulling out woulds unlike anything ever seen or written about from their heads?
It's kind of like pointing out that sci-fi alway mirrors modern technology, and not some new technology no author or scientist has ever thought of.

LightHawKnight posted...

Whats wrong with hard magic systems? It is so much better than magic can do anything.

Yeah, magic with no rules (or tech that functions as magic with no rules) does not lend itself to a compelling story.

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

You do at least have a number of sci-fi subgenres though. Space Fantasy and robotic uprising/utopia are common ones, but so are cyberpunk, monsters/aliens, biohazards, doomsday devices and deep sea exploration.

Thoes are all just variants on "future stuff". Scifi is almost always built on the foundation of current earth cultures and technologies and then picking one thing to change. Fantasy world are completely new worlds so they often use the foundation of "past stuff" as a foundation to build the world on. Criticizing fantasy for having castles and horses is like criticizing scifi for having skyscrapers and cars. And, although there are a million different ways magic has been done, it's one of the core pillars of fantasy. Fantasy without magic is like scifi without sci.

tri-sapphire posted...

does things differently compared to most fantasy stories.

This right here, is exactly what I'm getting at. This phrase should be a total head scratcher.

GeraldDarko posted...

Should authors be pulling out woulds unlike anything ever seen or written about from their heads?
It's kind of like pointing out that sci-fi alway mirrors modern technology, and not some new technology no author or scientist has ever thought of.

It's not that they necessarily should be in a different dimension where up is down, down is left and left is yellow. Like, make it a ziggurat instead of a castle for Pete's sake.

Now before everyone misses the point and digs up some fantasy story that REALLY DID have a ziggurat, look, you'd do a lot better with a word cloud chart of all the places where rules live. I wanna see any word other than "castle" be, say half as large as "castle."

Hard magic systems with rules are significantly better than magic with no rules.

Also you have no fuckin' idea what you're talking about with LotR. It doesn't even have a magic "system", much less a well defined one.

Kinda just seems like you're nitpicking something you have little to no actual knowledge of.

i mean, you're just describing generic 'high fantasy' -- all of those tropes literally define the genre. this is akin to complaining that "sci-fi" is focused on science and technology within the realm of fiction.

there are other genres of fantasy out there. see "subgenres" section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

You know, like consuming weird little glowing crystals or corrupting your soul or being physically strenuous. Following rules.

It's magic! It shouldn't have to follow rules. That's what defines magic. The genie of the lamp, for example, just does whatever the hell is wished of him without observing conservation of energy or getting tired.

Sure, there's no reason you can't come up with a system for how it works. But you don't have to. It's just that Lord of the Rings did and everyone just copy/pastes that.

...but THAT is following a rule. That you have to have a magic lamp with a genie for the magic to occur. It's just a different rule that you seem to not mind. Also, it's pretty well established that genies are always handing out rules on what can and cannot be wished for.

Oh wow I missed that TC used a genie in a lamp as an example of magic with no rules when it's one of the most rule based pieces of magic lmao

Heineken14 posted...

...but THAT is following a rule. That you have to have a magic lamp with a genie for the magic to occur. It's just a different rule that you seem to not mind. Also, it's pretty well established that genies are always handing out rules on what can and cannot be wished for.

Murphiroth posted...

Oh wow I missed that TC used a genie in a lamp as an example of magic with no rules when it's one of the most rule based pieces of magic lmao

That's not really what I meant. I am a bad communicator. The genie has story limitations instead of world limitations. It's hard to explain. Like, at the end of Aladdin when the genie is free, he can do whatever the hell he wants. So it's not a limitation of magic itself, but of the way the story is told.

Don't you dare bring up Return of Jafar btw

Tyranthraxus posted...

Check out Kingdoms of Amalur

It also is heavily influnced by fairy myths. In fact when I was playing KOA I had just read War of the Flowers by Tad Williams. It's real close to his descriptions

LonelyStoner posted...

Theres like one notable mainstream work that ripped off of Tolkien, and its Game of Thrones. There are plenty of other fantasy worlds that dont revolve around Tolkiens awesome work.

That influence is actually closer. Martin said that Memory Sorrow and Thorn inspired ASOIF. Brothers in both series are almost 1:1. One of the threats In MST are similar to what's beyond the wall. They make it their own, It's alright.

vycebrand2 posted...

It also is heavily influnced by fairy myths. In fact when I was playing KOA I had just read War of the Flowers by Tad Williams. It's real close to his descriptions

Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as to call it a Celtic Mythology game but it's the closest we ever got. When most people talk about "Medieval European fantasy" they're usually talking about the Germanic myths that Tolkien used in Middle Earth or King Arthur type stuff.

TC may like The Stormlight Archive series. It's pretty different than your typical fantasy world. The weather, geography, plants, animals, and weather are all part of the world building.

GeraldDarko posted...

TC may like The Stormlight Archive series. It's pretty different than your typical fantasy world. The weather, geography, plants, animals, and weather are all part of the world building.

Yeah but it has those pesky hard magic rules.

Murphiroth posted...

Yeah but it has those pesky hard magic rules.

More anime related for me, but I actually really like when the world building establishes a detailed system and rules for magic. Like, yes, magic CAN be anything, but there's no reason for it to not make sense in any given setting.

I think it is pretty hard to have stories with magic systems that don't have at least some level of rules. an important part of fiction is the reader feeling like the stuff later in the book followed logically from the things earlier in the book. it's called a plot

if anything can just happen randomly with no warning or prep it's difficult to be invested. I think you'd basically have to make the magic an extremely small portion of the setting so that its lawless nature doesn't get in the way of other things

tri-sapphire posted...

Hell, even the Song of Ice and Fire series does things differently compared to most fantasy stories.

Eh, Martin stole quite a bit from Tolkien. Even the RR