Board 8 > What four games are on the Rougelike Mount Rushmore? +TIEBREAKER

(+) Yeah! (+)

Leonhart4 posted...

can Rogue be considered a roguelike when it is in fact just a Rogue

I think Rogue is the most roguelike game at all

truly what could be more like something than the thing itself

Rogue
Slay the Spire
Nethack
Hades

Binding of Isaac
Slay the Spire
Hades
Rogue

i guess rogue has to be

Nobody voting Rogue has ever played Rogue. Bunch of posers.

Rogue
Binding of Isaac
Dwarf Fortress
Slay the Spire

Rogue is a roguelike, it's just not that great of one

Rogue
Nethack
Ancient Domains of Mystery
Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer

Leonhart4 posted...

can Rogue be considered a roguelike when it is in fact just a Rogue

it's not like "rogue" was a single commercial game. It was a game that a bunch of students/faculty programmed independently their own implementation of the general concept on university mainframes. There's a commercial version of "rogue" rereleased on steam for example, but it came a lot later and isn't the same as the original.

really now, people using "roguelike" wrong is pretty infuriating and there should have been separate Roguelike and roguelite rushmores since there's dozens of branches actual roguelikes (particularly if you're being flexible with the definition and include Mystery Dungeon series games and games imitating Mystery Dungeon games). It's not really like "metroidvania", where the confusion is at least understandable since "metroid" is in the name when the term typically refers to games more like SotN. It's literally just supposed to literally mean a game that's like Rogue but it's pretty much turned into fucking Ingsoc doublespeak to mean a game that's not remotely like rogue. Like Card Quest is tagged as a "roguelike deckbuilder" even though it isn't really either thing.

Is it an rpg that has turn based grid movement like rogue? then yes it's pretty fair to call it a roguelike. Is it say a platformer or other genre game that just has randomly generated levels? then it shouldn't be called a roguelike.

Crossfiyah posted...

Nobody voting Rogue has ever played Rogue. Bunch of posers.

I'll do you one better

I haven't played Nethack or Slay the Spire either and have only played about an hour of Hades

Only roguelike getting votes I've put any significant time into is Dead Cells

Mr_Crispy posted...

Is it an rpg that has turn based grid movement like rogue?

That means Necrodancer fits, right?

MacArrowny posted...

That means Necrodancer fits, right?

Not according to this chart for reasons, whose very existence should make you think about the company you're keeping when arguing about the genre
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/f/f1cd1058.jpg

CotN fits according to that chart.

MacArrowny posted...

CotN fits according to that chart.

no it doesn't for reasons

definitely not just because the enlightened and objective chart maker doesn't like it no siree

https://hard-drive.net/hd/video-games/roguelike-genre-purist-hopes-someone-will-develop-a-roguelike-someday/

Dels posted...

, people wouldn't be voting for Dark Souls?

i wouldn't, you'd need a new word. there's no way dark souls is a soulslike. it's what soulslikes are like!

Souls-like is definitely used a bit differently than other related terms. If someone asks you to recommend a Pokemon-like and you say "oh definitely Red and Blue" you've 100% missed the point of what they're asking, and I think the same goes for Zelda-like, Doom clone, etc. But Souls-like functions differently: you could absolutely say "Dark Souls is my favorite Souls-like". Weird!

Mr_Crispy posted...

Rogue
Nethack
Ancient Domains of Mystery
Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer

it's not like "rogue" was a single commercial game. It was a game that a bunch of students/faculty programmed independently their own implementation of the general concept on university mainframes. There's a commercial version of "rogue" rereleased on steam for example, but it came a lot later and isn't the same as the original.

really now, people using "roguelike" wrong is pretty infuriating and there should have been separate Roguelike and roguelite rushmores since there's dozens of branches actual roguelikes (particularly if you're being flexible with the definition and include Mystery Dungeon series games and games imitating Mystery Dungeon games). It's not really like "metroidvania", where the confusion is at least understandable since "metroid" is in the name when the term typically refers to games more like SotN. It's literally just supposed to literally mean a game that's like Rogue but it's pretty much turned into fucking Ingsoc doublespeak to mean a game that's not remotely like rogue. Like Card Quest is tagged as a "roguelike deckbuilder" even though it isn't really either thing.

Is it an rpg that has turn based grid movement like rogue? then yes it's pretty fair to call it a roguelike. Is it say a platformer or other genre game that just has randomly generated levels? then it shouldn't be called a roguelike.

It is not infuriating.

What is infuriating is having two different names for basically the same genre.

Just call them all Rogues ffs.

Kenri posted...

Souls-like is definitely used a bit differently than other related terms. If someone asks you to recommend a Pokemon-like and you say "oh definitely Red and Blue" you've 100% missed the point of what they're asking, and I think the same goes for Zelda-like, Doom clone, etc. But Souls-like functions differently: you could absolutely say "Dark Souls is my favorite Souls-like". Weird!

good post

Kenri posted...

Souls-like is definitely used a bit differently than other related terms. If someone asks you to recommend a Pokemon-like and you say "oh definitely Red and Blue" you've 100% missed the point of what they're asking, and I think the same goes for Zelda-like, Doom clone, etc. But Souls-like functions differently: you could absolutely say "Dark Souls is my favorite Souls-like". Weird!

Doom clones are FPSs, just in an older style ("boomer shooter")
Zelda-likes are adventure games, just with a focus on dungeons and combat
Pokemon-likes are monster collectors, just... actually what's special about it?
Souls-likes are action RPGs... or platformers, just with a focus on brutal but fair difficulty... and boss fights... and exploration in a world with interconnecting paths... and a loss of currency upon death... and

"Soulslike" is a specific subgenre. You're not asking for a game in a well-defined genre that's specifically like a famous example, you're asking for a game in a genre defined by a famous example. The difference between it and a standard genre are substantial enough that it became useful on its own. You're never going to find "Pokemon-like" on a genre tag list nearly as often as you'll find "Metroidvania" or "Roguelike" or "Soulslike" for good reasons! They're totally and intuitively different terms!

NFUN posted...

Pokemon-likes are monster collectors, just... actually what's special about it?

I mean there are lots of monster collectors that aren't even RPGs, much less turn based ones with limited movesets, catching mechanics, and an emphasis on elemental strengths and weaknesses. Steam has a "creature collector" tag and tbh it's almost completely useless. Any genre can let you catch little guys and it might not even be a central game mechanic.

(I also wouldn't call Doom clones and boomer shooters exactly the same thing, but the former is contained within the latter.)

Tiebreaker poll is very close

Kenri posted...

I mean there are lots of monster collectors that aren't even RPGs, much less turn based ones with limited movesets, catching mechanics, and an emphasis on elemental strengths and weaknesses. Steam has a "creature collector" tag and tbh it's almost completely useless. Any genre can let you catch little guys and it might not even be a central game mechanic.

(I also wouldn't call Doom clones and boomer shooters exactly the same thing, but the former is contained within the latter.)

fair enough

User
Write a sketch in which Phoenix Wright and Miles Edgeworth debate whether roguelikes are actually like Rogue.

ChatGPT
Title: The Roguelike Debate

Characters:

Phoenix Wright: Defense Attorney
Miles Edgeworth: Prosecutor
Judge: Presiding over the debate
Setting:
A courtroom, with Phoenix Wright and Miles Edgeworth standing at their respective desks. The Judge sits at the bench.

Judge: Court is now in session for the case of "Are Roguelikes Actually Like Rogue?" Mr. Wright, your opening statement.

Phoenix Wright: (Confidently) Thank you, Your Honor. Today, we seek to establish that modern roguelikesgames characterized by procedural generation, permadeath, and turn-based gameplayindeed uphold the spirit and core mechanics of the original Rogue. These elements are what define the genre and link all roguelikes back to their progenitor.

Judge: Very well. Mr. Edgeworth, your rebuttal?

Miles Edgeworth: (Smugly) Your Honor, while Mr. Wright makes an eloquent argument, I contend that many so-called "roguelikes" deviate significantly from the original Rogue. The term has been diluted over time, and many modern games lack the fundamental elements that made Rogue unique.

Judge: Proceed with your arguments, gentlemen.

Phoenix Wright: Let's start with procedural generation. In Rogue, every dungeon layout was unique, providing a fresh experience with each playthrough. Modern roguelikes, like Spelunky and Hades, continue this tradition. Each run is different, offering new challenges and discoveries.

Miles Edgeworth: (Adjusts cravat) But Mr. Wright, Rogue was also defined by its ASCII graphics and turn-based combat. Can we really say that a game like Hades, with its real-time combat and rich visuals, adheres to these core aspects? It's a departure from what made Rogue... well, Rogue.

Phoenix Wright: While Hades may not be turn-based, it embraces the permadeath and procedural elements that define the roguelike genre. It's about the underlying mechanics, not just the superficial details. Besides, genres evolve. Shouldn't we allow some flexibility as long as the core essence remains?

Miles Edgeworth: (Leans forward) Flexibility, yes, but not to the point where the term becomes meaningless. Games like Dark Souls are sometimes called roguelike due to their difficulty and death mechanics, yet they lack procedural generation and permadeath. This illustrates how the term has been stretched too far.

Judge: Interesting points. Mr. Wright, your counter?

Phoenix Wright: The evolution of genres is natural. Look at how platformers have diversified since Super Mario Bros.. Roguelikes should be allowed to innovate while staying true to their roots. Games like Enter the Gungeon and Slay the Spire prove that even with new elements, the spirit of Rogue can persist.

Miles Edgeworth: (Smirks) Ah, but Enter the Gungeon incorporates twin-stick shooter mechanics, and Slay the Spire is a card game. Are we not seeing a departure from Rogue's dungeon-crawling and combat systems?

Judge: Both sides make compelling arguments. It seems this debate hinges on what aspects we consider essential to being "like Rogue". Mr. Wright, a closing statement?

Phoenix Wright: (Firmly) Your Honor, the roguelike genre has evolved, but at its core, it retains the essence of Rogue. Procedural generation, permadeath, and an emphasis on skillful play are what matter. The genres ability to innovate and expand is a testament to the enduring legacy of Rogue.

Judge: And you, Mr. Edgeworth?

Miles Edgeworth: (Calmly) Your Honor, while innovation is important, we must be careful not to dilute the genres definition. Games that stray too far from Rogues original formula should be seen as influenced by roguelikes, rather than true roguelikes themselves.

Judge: Thank you. This court will take a short recess to deliberate on the matter. (Bangs gavel) Court is adjourned!

Narrator: And so, the debate continues. While the judge deliberates, the conversation about what defines a roguelike remains as dynamic and evolving as the genre itself.

Hades
Binding of Isaac
Slay the Spire
Cult of the Lamb