Current Events > Pro-Palestinian Protest Group Plans to Shut Down DNC Convention

(+) Yeah! (+)

sfcalimari posted...

Yeah well they weren't as brave as all the keyboard commandos here telling other people to go get beaten up by the police.

This is the problem, you have all these terminally online leftists floating around lecturing one another, you throw in some Russian propaganda and some Fox News signal boosting, and suddenly it's 2016 all over again.

And a LOT of the people online giving these lectures are foreigners who will never have to worry about getting beaten by the police or suffering under a Trump presidency.

It's not all Russian trolls or Republican plants doing all this, instead it's a lot of young impresionable western leftists who are easily led around by Russian and RNC disinformation campaigns.

This is a wild take from someone who is not American OR Palestinian.

legendary_zell posted...

This has been answered over and over. Democrats, specifically Harris are currently in power and say they will listen, are sympathetic, want the same thing etc. So, they are the rational targets. Republicans will never listen and would love nothing more than to record themselves gassing protesters. And they don't hold power anyway. This is a foreign policy issue. The President as Commander in Chief and head of state has massive unilateral power on this issue.

You all understand this, you just don't like its implications because it doesn't result in silent assent for Harris to continue the current policy of genocide. I still haven't heard what people want the protesters to do instead that even has a chance of changing things. That's the only acceptable outcome to people because we're talking life and death.

That's cute but this would only be logical if republicans were more beneficial for the Pro-Palestine movement and by supporting republicans you therefore showed you were willing to put your vote where your beliefs are. That isn't happening here since everyone knows republicans want worse for Palestine than any other political party, therefore the protestors come across as not genuine. Nobody is going to listen to protestors that don't appear genuine

ClayGuida posted...

It's a stupid ass reason. 'We get you're sympathetic to our cause, so we're gonna fuck your shit up!'

Protests target either the person in power/doing bad things or pressure people that might be persuadable or are sensitive to charges of hypocrisy. Both of those points are the main thoughts behind every protest. Both point in favor of protesting the current admin or DNC. It's like protesting an employer that says they're worker friendly or green but that hires a union busting firm or partners with Shell. They're more likely to respond than Shell would be because they have a self-image and public image to maintain.

There's nothing that could be a good reason in your mind if those don't count.

Intro2Logic posted...

Trump is significantly less likely to listen. He does not expect note need the votes of young progressives.

Oh so Kamala's problem is she's willing to listen? If she takes the same stance as Trump, the protestors should leave her alone?

legendary_zell posted...

This has been answered over and over. Democrats, specifically Harris are currently in power and say they will listen, are sympathetic, want the same thing etc. So, they are the rational targets. Republicans will never listen and would love nothing more than to record themselves gassing protesters. And they don't hold power anyway. This is a foreign policy issue. The President as Commander in Chief and head of state has massive unilateral power on this issue.

You all understand this, you just don't like its implications because it doesn't result in silent assent for Harris to continue the current policy of genocide. I still haven't heard what people want the protesters to do instead that even has a chance of changing things. That's the only acceptable outcome to people because we're talking life and death.

I'd think they'd want to protest at Republican events also to spread the message as well.

emblem-man posted...

I'd think they'd want to protest at Republican events also to spread the message as well.

Waste of time and energy. Sick of this small brain take prevalent in this topic

Rika_Furude posted...

That's cute but this would only be logical if republicans were more beneficial for the Pro-Palestine movement and by supporting republicans you therefore showed you were willing to put your vote where your beliefs are. That isn't happening here since everyone knows republicans want worse for Palestine than any other political party, therefore the protestors come across as not genuine. Nobody is going to listen to protestors that don't appear genuine

The Republicans are worse. Yes. So, when a worse option exists, in your mind what's the proper response? Giving the slightly better option a pass indefinitely? Doing nothing?

Voting for the current policy of the Biden-Harris admin is NOT putting their vote where their values are because the current policy facilitates genocide. They are trying to get that changed so that their vote will reflect a vote for the non-genocide of Palestinians.

Deciding not to pressure a group that has the power to change things in raw hope that they'll change on a dime after the election when you vote for them without them committing to a meaningful policy change is irrational and wouldn't be expected of any other group on any other issue. Much less the issue of genocide. Yet it's expected of these protesters and they're Trump supporters if they don't accept that absurd proposition. That's not how politics works.

Were literally listening to people that got egged on so successfully by Republicans and online foreign trolls that theyre explaining to us how attacking groups of Americans with smokebombs is just effective protesting.

And that went so well that now theyve decided to go with more drastic measures.

At least stop using civil rights protestors as a justification.

Even if they wanted to, the GOP has no actual means to stop the Genocide. Biden is the only one who does.

legendary_zell posted...

The Republicans are worse. Yes. So, when a worse option exists, in your mind what's the proper response? Giving the slightly better option a pass indefinitely? Doing nothing?

Voting for the current policy of the Biden-Harris admin is NOT putting their vote where their values are because the current policy facilitates genocide. They are trying to get that changed so that their vote will reflect a vote for the non-genocide of Palestinians.

Deciding not to pressure a group that has the power to change things in raw hope that they'll change on a dime after the election when you vote for them without them committing to a meaningful policy change is irrational and wouldn't be expected of any other group on any other issue. Much less the issue of genocide. Yet it's expected of these protesters and they're Trump supporters if they don't accept that absurd proposition. That's not how politics works.

The issue inherent with pressuring the "least worst" option is that it makes those putting the pressure look hypocritical. If their efforts are successful and their actions help get trump get elected again, that means their efforts resulted in an outcome that was worse than perhaps if they eve did nothing at all. Actions speak louder than words and when their actions work towards to opposite of what they claim they want, that obviously looks suspect and hypocritical.

MaxEffingBemis posted...

Waste of time and energy. Sick of this small brain take prevalent in this topic

It's just common fucking sense. Imagine punishing someone for being more open to your side and leaving the guy openly trying to do more damage to Palestine alone.

Kamala's not going to fix the Israel/Kamala conflict in a few fucking weeks while not even being the president yet.

Squall28 posted...

It's just common fucking sense. Imagine punishing someone for being more open to your side and leaving the guy openly trying to do more damage to Palestine alone.

Kamala's not going to fix the Israel/Kamala conflict in a few fucking weeks while not even being the president yet.

Youre equating protesting with punishment.

MaxEffingBemis posted...

Waste of time and energy. Sick of this small brain take prevalent in this topic

Ehh, there's a larger pool of persuadable there than at a democratic heavy event.
Senate will probably be won by Republicans even if Harris wins, seems like we'd ultimately need them anyway

emblem-man posted...

I'd think they'd want to protest at Republican events also to spread the message as well.

To what end? What would that possibly accomplish? Republicans have religious, military, cultural, social, and economic reasons to never even consider the views of the protesters. All incentives point in favor of them making a show of publicly brutalizing and smearing them. And even if they were somehow convinced of something it is against their interest to believe, they're not in power.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Republicans were in power, the protests would be far bigger and far more violent. People would feel more comfortable criticizing things that should obviously be criticized. It's like with the anti-Trump immigration policy protests. Those were huge, but were just displays of anger instead of pleas to change things. Now, Biden has enacted some very similar policies and is deporting a huge amount of people, but there's far fewer protests. And the ones that exist are pleas for justice.

MaxEffingBemis posted...

Waste of time and energy. Sick of this small brain take prevalent in this topic

Republicans literally fund these bills. But only Dems are being blamed.

Either these people are dumb as rocks, or they're being paid by Republicans to act as if they're dumb as rocks.

As I've said dozens of times, go to a Vance rally where it'll basically be cameras and members of the press. Your message will spread 1000x what it will at a crowded rally. It's literally free publicity for your cause.

But they don't care about their cause. They care about getting Trump elected. As evident by their schemes.

I like how the train of thought is now that since Republicans want to destroy Palestine that telling people to not vote for democrats will somehow be effective at getting Palestine aid.

Rika_Furude posted...

The issue inherent with pressuring the "least worst" option is that it makes those putting the pressure look hypocritical. If their efforts are successful and their actions help get trump get elected again, that means their efforts resulted in an outcome that was worse than perhaps if they eve did nothing at all. Actions speak louder than words and when their actions work towards to opposite of what they claim they want, that obviously looks suspect and hypocritical.

Again, should a "least worst" option be entitled to face no pressure so long as an even worse option exists? That's an incredibly dangerous proposition.

Their efforts being successful means a change in policy from the Harris admin and a Harris win, not no change and a Trump win. These people overwhelmingly want Harris to win, with a changed policy.

Doing nothing at all guarantees the genocide of the Palestinian people because that's the current policy and not fighting it locks it in regardless of who wins the election. The Republicans won't change that policy. The Democrats will only change it with massive pressure, if at all. Thus, the only way to even possibly get a change is to fight for one.

Their goal is the end of the genocide and their actions are to pressure the people in power to end it. No hypocrisy there. Their actions match their words.

ClayGuida posted...

Republicans literally fund these bills. But only Dems are being blamed.

Either these people are dumb as rocks, or they're being paid by Republicans to act as if they're dumb as rocks.

As I've said dozens of times, go to a Vance rally where it'll basically be cameras and members of the press. Your message will spread 1000x what it will at a crowded rally.

And the idea that the protestors avoid protesting at GOP events is to avoid getting beaten up is laughable when they're calling for students to protest and get beat up by cops in order to make the Dems look bad. They're calling for violence and looking for a fight yet are avoiding the guys who have cameras on them from every network and who will give them a fight as well.

You can tell people who are going mask off for Trump support.

We won't forget.

legendary_zell posted...

To what end? What would that possibly accomplish? Republicans have religious, military, cultural, social, and economic reasons to never even consider the views of the protesters. All incentives point in favor of them making a show of publicly brutalizing and smearing them. And even if they were somehow convinced of something it is against their interest to believe, they're not in power.

Ehh, I'm sure the protestors can find some arguments and slogans that would appeal to "American first " Republicans that always talks about spending money on Americans before others.

And yes, we would need Republicans even though they don't have the presidency.
They have the majori of the house and will most likely control Senate

legendary_zell posted...

Again, should a "least worst" option be entitled to face no pressure so long as an even worse option exists? That's an incredibly dangerous proposition.

Their efforts being successful means a change in policy from the Harris admin and a Harris win, not no change and a Trump win. These people overwhelmingly want Harris to win, with a changed policy.

Doing nothing at all guarantees the genocide of the Palestinian people because that's the current policy and not fighting it locks it in regardless of who wins the election. The Republicans won't change that policy. The Democrats will only change it with massive pressure, if at all. Thus, the only way to even possibly get a change is to fight for one.

Their goal is the end of the genocide and their actions are to pressure the people in power to end it. No hypocrisy there. Their actions match their words.

If their actions get Trump elected by means of convincing people not to vote Democrat because they didnt change their policy, that means their actions didnt match their words

ReiRei89 posted...

And the idea that the protestors avoid protesting at GOP events is to avoid getting beaten up is laughable when they're calling for students to protest and get beat up by cops in order to make the Dems look bad. They're calling for violence and looking for a fight yet are avoiding the guys who have cameras on them from every network and who will give them a fight as well.

They've admitted it. It's not an assumption. It's not speculation. They've said they wouldn't be welcomed at a Trump rally. And that's fine. There's a few thousand people at his rallies. JD Vance however does not have a few thousand people at his rallies. He doesn't even have a few hundred. He's an easy opportunity to get free TV time. But that's not what they want. Sabotaging Harris is their goal.

So they are literally telling people to get beat up at the DNC, but avoid any Republican event because they might get beat up?

Yep, nothing suspicious about that.

I thought I was pretty far left, but I'm really getting alienated by the stuff on reddit at LostGeneration and Late Stage Capitalism, though I only ever lurked there occasionally.

Right now, it seems like those places really aren't much more than doomerism/accelerationism, which is pretty disappointing. Not one topic there trying to analyze policies or work towards solutions. (And where was this fervor during BLM...? Makes me suspicious if they care much about black people, too.)

I think it's a fair point that they (not reddit doomers above, but people on the ground) should protest against both democrats and republicans to maximize their reach. Even if democrats are paying "lip service" or "cosplaying" or whatever you might believe, at least meeting with the leaders of these groups, like they're doing with unions, provides the chance to get something done.

Rika_Furude posted...

If their actions get Trump elected by means of convincing people not to vote Democrat because they didnt change their policy, that means their actions didnt match their words

I've asked you several times for an alternative option that even potentially gets them where they want to go. What would that be? Let's say they end all protests today and don't protest from now until November 6th. How does that end the genocide in Palestine? How does that make the next President more likely to break with decades of American policy and drop blanket support for Israel?

bobbycorwin posted...

So they are literally telling people to get beat up at the DNC, but avoid any Republican event because they might get beat up?

Yep, nothing suspicious about that.

A lot of people don't aim to make sense of things. It's why Republicans win a lot of times. If people only do surface level thinking, then you can easily arrive at the worst conclusions such as "protestors are stupid"

legendary_zell posted...

I've asked you several times for an alternative option that even potentially gets them where they want to go. What would that be? Let's say they end all protests today and don't protest from now until November 6th. How does that end the genocide in Palestine? How does that make the next President more likely to break with decades of American policy and drop blanket support for Israel?

Harris has literally sat down and talked to the leaders of the movement.

legendary_zell posted...

I've asked you several times for an alternative option that even potentially gets them where they want to go. What would that be? Let's say they end all protests today and don't protest from now until November 6th. How does that end the genocide in Palestine? How does that make the next President more likely to break with decades of American policy and drop blanket support for Israel?

Its probably not the kind of change that can happen overnight. Its not a literal impossibility but I dont think its realistic. Whats more realistic is gradual change. Unfortunately we are talking about an active genocide here so that isnt a great outcome either but its better than helping Trump get elected and having the opposite happen

legendary_zell posted...

Their efforts being successful means a change in policy from the Harris admin and a Harris win, not no change and a Trump win. These people overwhelmingly want Harris to win, with a changed policy.

Are you sure? I'm seeing things like these:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/1586fc59.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/b6c8cbdd.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/ebe4423c.jpg
(The ONLY stickies on that subreddit)
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/0ae58fad.jpg

Only news about Trump are the actual terrible things he's saying and doing, no real push-back or anger other than reporting "news."

You spelled dink wrong in the topic title

emblem-man posted...

Ehh, there's a larger pool of persuadable there than at a democratic heavy event.
Senate will probably be won by Republicans even if Harris wins, seems like we'd ultimately need them anyway

??? Have you ever spoken to a republican in person before?

ClayGuida posted...

Harris has literally sat down and talked to the leaders of the movement.

That's good. I immediately praised her for doing so on this board. But it's merely a start with no guarantee of material change. And what the protesters want is material change that saves lives and ends complicity and impunity. You don't call off the dogs because of a listening session where no commitments were made or policies altered.

History is full of contentious, risky, uncomfortable, challenging protests that leaders were scared and exasperated by. But the status quo has never been changed without them.

legendary_zell posted...

History is full of contentious, risky, uncomfortable, challenging protests that leaders were scared and exasperated by. But the status quo has never been changed without them.

And this isn't one of them. They're useful idiots for Russia, Republicans, and Netanyahu.

If that's what they want their legacy to be, hey not gonna stop them. But when Harris wins without their help, they no longer get a seat at the table. And that'll be their own fault.

MaxEffingBemis posted...

??? Have you ever spoken to a republican in person before?

Who are they convincing at a democratic rally?
The protestors should be going after independents and Republic leaning people who would be willing to vote for Harris over this foreign policy.

legendary_zell posted...

That's good. I immediately praised her for doing so on this board. But it's merely a start with no guarantee of material change. And what the protesters want is material change that saves lives and ends complicity and impunity. You don't call off the dogs because of a listening session where no commitments were made or policies altered.

History is full of contentious, risky, uncomfortable, challenging protests that leaders were scared and exasperated by. But the status quo has never been changed without them.

If you want material change then going after someone who has no current power to do anything is not it.

Sansoldier posted...

Are you sure? I'm seeing things like these:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/1586fc59.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/b6c8cbdd.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/ebe4423c.jpg
(The ONLY stickies on that subreddit)
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/0ae58fad.jpg

Only news about Trump are the actual terrible things he's saying and doing, no real push-back or anger other than reporting "news."

These are all based on the current policy, not the potential future policy. The current policy is to facilitate genocide and kill kids unfortunately and that provokes negative reactions. She would get a more positive reaction if she moved away from that. And those subreddits just trend towards the negative in general, it's a major problem with them. I agree that they should push towards positive action in general rather than just dooming. But this topic is about one of those positive actions.

MaxEffingBemis posted...

Youre equating protesting with punishment.

It is punishment if you are hurting their campaign.

classic pro-palestinians.

ClayGuida posted...

And this isn't one of them. They're useful idiots for Russia, Republicans, and Netanyahu.

If that's what they want their legacy to be, hey not gonna stop them. But when Harris wins without their help, they no longer get a seat at the table. And that'll be their own fault.

What should they do instead that would be acceptable and effective in your eyes? Openly support Harris without a change in policy? Wouldn't that just end up in a "Biden won the primary!!!" situation and be taken as support for the current policy? There's no way to discern a yes vote from a yes with reservations vote.

They've tried every peaceful method I can think of.

Should they just stay home and not protest?

What's your recommendation?

Tmaster148 posted...

If you want material change then going after someone who has no current power to do anything is not it.

Harris is the current Vice President. Additionally, as a candidate for the presidency, even her announcements about her policy intentions can have real world effects. For example, if she announced today that she supports the ICJ warrants for war crimes for the leaders of Hamas and the IDF/Netanyahu, then that in itself punctures the impunity Israeli leaders are operating with. She has the power to do that today and no one could stop her. That's not going to happen without serious pressure on her.

legendary_zell posted...

These are all based on the current policy, not the potential future policy. The current policy is to facilitate genocide and kill kids unfortunately and that provokes negative reactions. She would get a more positive reaction if she moved away from that. And those subreddits just trend towards the negative in general, it's a major problem with them. I agree that they should push towards positive action in general rather than just dooming. But this topic is about one of those positive actions.

That's fair. Hopefully the people in real life don't mirror what we're seeing online.

legendary_zell posted...

Harris is the current Vice President. Additionally, as a candidate for the presidency, even her announcements about her policy intentions can have real world effects. For example, if she announced today that she supports the ICJ warrants for war crimes for the leaders of Hamas and the IDF/Netanyahu, then that in itself punctures the impunity Israeli leaders are operating with. She has the power to do that today and no one could stop her. That's not going to happen without serious pressure on her.

Vice President does not have any meaningful power to help Palestine. She's also not been elected as the next president either.

Focus on her is misguided if the goal is to have immediate action done.

Tmaster148 posted...

Vice President does not have any meaningful power to help Palestine. She's also not been elected as the next president either.

Focus on her is misguided if the goal is to have immediate action done.

Ive pointed this out to him before. Exactly this entire statement.

divot1338 posted...

Ive pointed this out to him before. Exactly this entire statement.

I just directly explained how she can have immediate real-world impact as a candidate. The Vice President has the ear of the President. The VP can negotiate with foreign governments directly.

People were complaining with the exact same arguments when Biden was the target of the protests. It's not about that. Some simply want silence.

We get it, you want Trump to win.

zell

I have to hope that it is the utterly tragic nature of the situation thats making people like you that I respect say such obviously incorrect things that are not going to fucking happen.

A millenia long holy war is not going to end in the next fifty days because you fucking want it to.

You are clearly being gaslit by Republicans and the assholes that empower them. The best thing you can do for Palestinians is drop it until November 6th.

When these protestors will mysteriously vanish I expect.

ClayGuida posted...

We get it, you want Trump to win.

I've been here 20 years and have never said anything pro-Trump even once. Unlike you.
divot1338 posted...

zell

I have to hope that it is the utterly tragic nature of the situation thats making people like you that I respect say such obviously incorrect things that are not going to fucking happen.

A millenia long holy war is not going to end in the next fifty days because you fucking want it to.

You are clearly being gaslit by Republicans and the assholes that empower them. The best thing you can do for Palestinians is drop it until November 6th.

When these protestors will mysteriously vanish I expect.

This post is just....divorced from reality. This is not a millennia long holy war, it's a 20th and 21st century conflict about settler colonialism and apartheid. The conflict does not need to end and I don't expect it to. Only the genocide, or at least our complicity with it. I think doing that would do a lot to end the conflict as well.

Thanks for being yet another to outright confirm that what you want is silence on the issue of goddamn genocide. I think you'll deny ever making such a statement and look back on it with shame one day.

The protests aren't going anywhere and if you think they are, you are not in touch with reality on this. You are the one who has been affected by conspiracy theories and propaganda if you genuinely believe that.

Zell's right on these issues. A lot of the people I see arguing with him were some of the same people telling me that keeping Biden on the ticket was the only way to beat Trump. Zero political instinct. Pressure on the Democrats need to remain.

sfcalimari posted...

Yeah well they weren't as brave as all the keyboard commandos here telling other people to go get beaten up by the police.

This is the problem, you have all these terminally online leftists floating around lecturing one another, you throw in some Russian propaganda and some Fox News signal boosting, and suddenly it's 2016 all over again.

And a LOT of the people online giving these lectures are foreigners who will never have to worry about getting beaten by the police or suffering under a Trump presidency.

It's not all Russian trolls or Republican plants doing all this, instead it's a lot of young impresionable western leftists who are easily led around by Russian and RNC disinformation campaigns.

Heres a sensible post

*specifically in reference to the more militant people

legendary_zell posted...

I've been here 20 years and have never said anything pro-Trump even once. Unlike you.

I haven't said anything pro Trump. I can point to about 10 posts in this topic alone that are cheering for Trump to get reelected.

Actually I take that back, there was something Trump did that I gave him credit for. I can't remember what it was, but it was pretty unanimous politics wise that it was a good thing.

Sadly I can't remember what that was because it's lost in 4 years of bullshit and nonsense.