Board 8 > Do you consider ohtani the best baseball player ever?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Do you

In terms of individual talent yes.

Not yet the longevity.

Eh. Like best? Maybe. For this era like post BB sure.

KokoroAkechi posted...

Eh. Like best? Maybe. For this era like post BB sure.

Bb, bonds? What about steroids..etc...?

I don't really pay attention to MLB but I've heard of Ohtani hype before today (and the miracle hopes of Toronto fans he'd sign with them in the offseason) but today I learned that his natural position is pitcher???

Understanding he's batting as DH nowadays but still, when is the last time you had a pitcher who was also a home run machine? Babe Ruth? (edit: on further review Babe Ruth was barely a pitcher so I guess not even a relevant comparison, though if Ohtani's pitching days are behind him then maybe not...)

and then throwing in the base stealing... it's just crazy.

even before steroids Bonds was an inner circle hall of fame player. If you want someone clean you can say Griffey Jr. But it feels weird to place him like as a best ever given that hes probably barely top 5 at his own position (center field).

MartinFF7 posted...

Ohtani's pitching days are behind him then maybe not...)

Ohtani is going to pitch.

Ohtani's good but he's no Pablo Sanchez

Leafeon13N posted...

In terms of individual talent yes.

Not yet the longevity.

Basically, he's the best but not the greatest yet

MZero posted...

Basically, he's the best but not the greatest yet

You don't have to look far to see how precarious this status is. Mike Trout is still around.

Leafeon13N posted...

Mike Trout is still around.

barely!

Nah
Lots of rule changes, different eras.
One of the greats though, yes.

MartinFF7 posted...

edit: on further review Babe Ruth was barely a pitcher

Dude had 100 complete games and a 2.28 ERA. Once again, different eras but he pitched a lot over 5 years.

Xtlm posted...

Nah
Lots of rule changes, different eras

The game is a lot harder than it has ever been. Not sure where you are trying to go with this. The talent pool is as strong as its ever been. A large percentage of the country couldn't even play when Ruth played.

You gotta admit he's pretty damn borderline

red13n posted...

The game is a lot harder than it has ever been. Not sure where you are trying to go with this. The talent pool is as strong as its ever been. A large percentage of the country couldn't even play when Ruth played.

Well.
Pick someone up that is great now or then, move them to be born in either 1900 or 2000,and put them in front of a baseball and see what happens. Maybe they will adapt to be great or maybe they won't. It's impossible to know.

That said, I was just talking about the recent changes even. Like take stealing bases. Just in the last couple years they have limited as to what pitchers can do to keep guys on, they made the bases bigger, you can't block the base anymore, and you can even wear a oversized oven mitt on your hand if you want.

Xtlm posted...

Dude had 100 complete games and a 2.28 ERA. Once again, different eras but he pitched a lot over 5 years.

Ok thank you for that, I thought he had more of a pitching career, wikipedia threw me off when i was looking up home runs by pitchers quote, "Babe Ruth started his major league career as a pitcher before moving to the outfield. Only 14 of his 714 career home runs were hit as a pitcher, however." Gave me the impression his being a pitcher was more of a blip than I thought or was led to believe!

Xtlm posted...

That said, I was just talking about the recent changes even. Like take stealing bases. Just in the last couple years they have limited as to what pitchers can do to keep guys on, they made the bases bigger, you can't block the base anymore, and you can even wear a oversized oven mitt on your hand if you want.

Before 1931 a ball that bounced over the fence was a home run.

The minimum distance for an outfield wall was 250 feet until 1959.

And again, reminder, until 1947(And lets be honest, a decent period beyond that), the talent pool MLB players was not "best players" it was "best players allowed to play".

UltimaterializerX posted...

Its Barry Bonds. I dont give a shit about steroids either, because all those dudes were on them and he was still far and away the best.

While a lot of players were on steroids, it was not all of them. It may not have even been a majority.

But it also primarily impacted offense.

Arguably, advancements in biomechanics have led to better pitchers than we ever saw out of the steroid era. Not more durable, but pitchers now throw harder than they ever have before. They spin the baseball better than ever before(Minus a small period of advanced sticky stuff just a few years back). The stuff hitters see on a regular basis is on average way more difficult to hit than ever before.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Look up his 2004 season. When Ohtani gets intentionally walked 120 times and like 120 beyond that he can enter GOAT chats.

Also 2004 is exactly what you don't want to look at with Bonds. That is basically peak steroids Bonds.At that point he could barely run. But he still had elite bat speed and plate recognition.

But he was 39. Without the steroids its likely his peak was 7-10 years in the past. It is not a fair comparison.

He absolutely gets in the conversation, but your never going to be able to answer the question of what would have happened without the steroids. He was a hall of fame talent with the best drugs money could buy.

Pretty much everything from 94-2005 gets a big asterisk.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Its Barry Bonds. I dont give a shit about steroids either, because all those dudes were on them and he was still far and away the best.

Look up his 2004 season. When Ohtani gets intentionally walked 120 times and like 120 beyond that he can enter GOAT chats.

but can he pitch?

UltimaterializerX posted...

Dudes also all get pulled after going through lineups twice.

Because hitters are better and bullpens have become highly specialized.

Also pitchers no longer leave anything in the tank. They dont throw with 85-95% effort to go deeper and pitch to contact.

The mantra is now throw as hard as you can for as long as you can.

Pitchers no longer throw 72mph breaking balls.

Breaking balls are now 80-89.

Leafeon13N posted...

You don't have to look far to see how precarious this status is. Mike Trout is still around.

Trout being injury prone is the biggest tragedy in baseball. And him being stuck on the Angels too of course.

Sorozone posted...

Trout being injury prone is the biggest tragedy in baseball. And him being stuck on the Angels too of course.

Yep.

He was on an all-time all-time great trajectory and now he is a mere first ballot hall of famer.

Leafeon13N posted...

He was on an all-time all-time great trajectory and now he is a mere first ballot hall of famer

Oh and it might not even be unanimous anymore because people are jerks.

MartinFF7 posted...

but still, when is the last time you had a pitcher who was also a home run machine?

Carlos Zambrano had a good home run rate, but the NL didn't have DHs then so he only ever hit when he was pitching and sometimes as a pinch hitter.

Who knows what he could have done if he had been able to DH.

Unsure, because it's hard to compare different eras, but leaning towards yes