Current Events > Is this bravery or stupidity?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Basically I fired someone, I believe a month ago, for poor performance (consistently making the same mistakes over and over again and expecting me to fix them everytime he does it), poor work ethics (consistently comes to work 15-30 min late and leaves 15-30 min early) and overall just being a fucking douchebag (passing his work off to others and taking the credit). Basically, he's the first person I ever had to fire and I don't feel bad for it.

I give this context, because I literally just got 3 emails from 3 CPA firms asking me to write a recommendation for this guy because he's using me as a reference. Obviously I'm going to grill the fuck out of this guy from his Accounting Career, but I'm also kind of lost for words. He could've easily just lied about his reference and use his family or friends to pretend they belong to our CPA firm, but no instead he used my work email and work phone with my full name. Is he stupid, brave, or both?

The main difference between stupid and brave is the outcome, and that's entirely in your hands.

Legally I believe your only recourse is to write an email confirming that he did in fact work at your place and share when he was employed there. Writing anything else is opening you up to lawsuits. IIRC you might be able to blow them off if you want, but previous employers can't badmouth former employees to future prospective employees when they're listed as references.

Are you sure he's actually putting you down for a reference, or are they just writing to confirm employment and you're the point of contact for his previous job?

A lot of people believe (wrongly) that it is illegal to give a bad reference.

Or that previously employers won't hold a grudge after they have got rid of you. Maybe even feel bad about the firing and want to help you out.

s0nicfan posted...

Legally I believe your only recourse is to write an email confirming that he did in fact work at your place and share when he was employed there. Writing anything else is opening you up to lawsuits. IIRC you might be able to blow them off if you want, but previous employers can't badmouth former employees to future prospective employees when they're listed as references.

Are you sure he's actually putting you down for a reference, or are they just writing to confirm employment and you're the point of contact for his previous job?

^This. Just say the dates he worked there. That way you don't have to deal with anything else.

Just put the dates he worked there. Most companies know to read in between the lines that if they ask for a recommendation and you give only dates that he sucked.

ai123 posted...

A lot of people believe (wrongly) that it is illegal to give a bad reference.

Or that previously employers won't hold a grudge after they have got rid of you. Maybe even feel bad about the firing and want to help you out.

So I looked into it, and you're right that it isn't illegal to give a bad reference but all statements must be based in fact. So "he got 3 low scoring reviews in a row" or "he was late 20% of the time" is factual, but "he wasn't a very good employee" is opinion. So the TC could technically be negative, but it would still open them up to lawsuits unless the wording is extremely precise and you have the paperwork to back up your claims.

s0nicfan posted...

So I looked into it, and you're right that it isn't illegal to give a bad reference but all statements must be based in fact. So "he got 3 low scoring reviews in a row" or "he was late 20% of the time" is factual, but "he wasn't a very good employee" is opinion. So the TC could technically be negative, but it would still open them up to lawsuits unless the wording is extremely precise and you have the paperwork to back up your claims.

Correct, which is why it's best to just give the dates he worked there.

Guys, this isn't my first rodeo. I've been a Senior Manager for my CPA firm for close to 9 years of my life right now. I know all the legality when it comes to this stuff. We just can't fire people willy nilly, we actually have to build a case against them and it has to be measured and investigated by our HR and supervisors before it can be set in motion and executed. We have all the paperwork necessary that would save our ass if we somehow got taken to court over it.

And I know when something is just a simple employment verification (most of these are from quick calls asking if they really worked there and for how long they worked there...which I did get from this ex-employee) and when they used me specifically as a reference. What is my first time is dealing with someone who got let go from our job in a very bad state and then using me as a reference down to my full name. One of my coworkers said it's probably because of my work email and work phone which makes it easy for them to verify that I am a Senior Manager at this firm. He probably didn't think they would actually ask me or something. They're asking very specific questions like work ethics, performance, strengths and weaknesses, etc.

ai123 posted...

Maybe even feel bad about the firing and want to help you out.

I've done that for ones I was forced to lay off.

ai123 posted...

A lot of people believe (wrongly) that it is illegal to give a bad reference.

Or that previously employers won't hold a grudge after they have got rid of you. Maybe even feel bad about the firing and want to help you out.

Some states have specific laws about what information you can and can't reveal to a potential employer.

Many years ago I worked at Best Buy and our loss prevention person was caught stealing from the store (ironic). That person then went to get the same job at Target, and our manager could not legally call Target's manager and tell them that this guy was robbing us

Are you sure it is really a recommendation? When most employers conduct a background check, they generally require you to disclose your previous places of employment from the last few years. In these cases, you usually need to provide a reference. Some people simply list the HR department's email address, while others provide their former supervisor. If it is a small company, there may not be a dedicated HR individual to confirm your employment, so you would normally add the name/phone/mail of the person who supervised you.

As others have pointed out, this process is rarely about evaluating how good an employee you were. Rather, it is typically just about verifying that you actually worked there. Generally, someone will make a call or send you a mail to confirm: "Did this person work at your company from date A to date B?"

Are you sure they don't mean to do just that? I mean, are they actually asking for your personal evaluation of this person in terms of value as an employee? I suppose one scenario is that your ex-report assumed they'd just do the above, and not ask for "hey, how was such and such when he worked under you".