Current Events > Smogon

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DodogamaRayBrst 04/07/25 7:11:28 PM #1:	I saw that Roaring Moon got banned and only 112 people voted on whether or not it should be so. Not even that 112 people voted for it, 112 people voted in total. Is it just a tiny kabal of people sititng at an illuminati table deciding how to structure the rules for people who want to engage competitively with the biggest franchise of the world outside of the official doubles format? I would have assumed these ban tests got thousands of votes. Not a hundred. <cite>DodogamaRayBrst posted [p:984636949] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>I saw that Roaring Moon got banned and only 112 people voted on whether or not it should be so. Not even that 112 people voted for it, 112 people voted in total.Is it just a tiny kabal of people sititng at an illuminati table deciding how to structure the rules for people who want to engage competitively with the biggest franchise of the world outside of the official doubles format? I would have assumed these ban tests got thousands of votes. Not a hundred. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ellis123 04/07/25 7:15:12 PM #2:	DodogamaRayBrst posted... I would have assumed these ban tests got thousands of votes. Not that many people actually good at Pokmon. --- "A shouted order to do something of dubious morality with an unpredictable outcome? Thweeet!" My FC is in my profile. <cite>ellis123 posted [p:984636986] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>DodogamaRayBrst posted... </cite><quote>I would have assumed these ban tests got thousands of votes.</quote>Not that many people actually good at Pokmon.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LightningAce11 04/07/25 7:16:53 PM #3:	Those are the people that qualified to actually vote. Its also the amount of people who actually signed up to the website and made the effort to ladder and vote. --- I want you to grab your nuts. Grab your balls. I want you to take a handful, and just grab your nuts real quick. Swivel 'em around in a circular motion. -LTG <cite>LightningAce11 posted [p:984637011] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Those are the people that qualified to actually vote. Its also the amount of people who actually signed up to the website and made the effort to ladder and vote. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/07/25 7:17:27 PM #4:	DodogamaRayBrst posted... I saw that Roaring Moon got banned and only 112 people voted on whether or not it should be so. Not even that 112 people voted for it, 112 people voted in total. Is it just a tiny kabal of people sititng at an illuminati table deciding how to structure the rules for people who want to engage competitively with the biggest franchise of the world outside of the official doubles format? I would have assumed these ban tests got thousands of votes. Not a hundred. You don't have to play Smogon. Nobody is forcing you to play Smogon. There's a good chance Champions will make Smogon completely obsolete anyway. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://i.imgur.com/dQgC4kv.jpg <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:984637019] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>DodogamaRayBrst posted... </cite><quote>I saw that Roaring Moon got banned and only 112 people voted on whether or not it should be so. Not even that 112 people voted for it, 112 people voted in total.Is it just a tiny kabal of people sititng at an illuminati table deciding how to structure the rules for people who want to engage competitively with the biggest franchise of the world outside of the official doubles format? I would have assumed these ban tests got thousands of votes. Not a hundred.</quote>You don't have to play Smogon. Nobody is forcing you to play Smogon. There's a good chance Champions will make Smogon completely obsolete anyway.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TMOG 04/07/25 7:17:38 PM #5:	I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team. They banned the King's Rock item for having a 10% Flinch chance, but are absolutely fine with Stealth Rock decimating Fire and Flying types every time they switch in. <cite>TMOG posted [p:984637025] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team.They banned the King's Rock item for having a 10% Flinch chance, but are absolutely fine with Stealth Rock decimating Fire and Flying types every time they switch in.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DodogamaRayBrst 04/07/25 7:19:37 PM #6:	Tyranthraxus posted... You don't have to play Smogon. Nobody is forcing you to play Smogon. There's a good chance Champions will make Smogon completely obsolete anyway. ? I don't play pokemon competitively. I was just surprised. <cite>DodogamaRayBrst posted [p:984637045] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Tyranthraxus posted... </cite><quote>You don't have to play Smogon. Nobody is forcing you to play Smogon. There's a good chance Champions will make Smogon completely obsolete anyway.</quote>? I don't play pokemon competitively. I was just surprised. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Fenrir_Howls 04/07/25 7:20:51 PM #7:	TMOG posted... I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team. They banned the King's Rock item for having a 10% Flinch chance, but are absolutely fine with Stealth Rock decimating Fire and Flying types every time they switch in. Just going to point out they test things like these, also there are currently multiple options to deal with Stealth Rocks. --- Loki's Good Boy <cite>Fenrir_Howls posted [p:984637055] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>TMOG posted...</cite><quote>I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team.They banned the King's Rock item for having a 10% Flinch chance, but are absolutely fine with Stealth Rock decimating Fire and Flying types every time they switch in.</quote>Just going to point out they test things like these, also there are currently multiple options to deal with Stealth Rocks.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
PerseusRad 04/07/25 7:24:45 PM #8:	TMOG posted... I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team. Haze and phasing-type moves arent exactly uncommon (well, Haze is), and yet BP is still banned. Perhaps theres a reason it was banned despite there technically being counterplay. <cite>PerseusRad posted [p:984637080] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>TMOG posted... </cite><quote>I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team.</quote>Haze and phasing-type moves arent exactly uncommon (well, Haze is), and yet BP is still banned. Perhaps theres a reason it was banned despite there technically being counterplay.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
iGenesis 04/07/25 7:25:31 PM #9:	Wtf is a Roaring Moon. --- 2012 U_U 2017 X_X <cite>iGenesis posted [p:984637084] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Wtf is a Roaring Moon.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DodogamaRayBrst 04/07/25 7:26:41 PM #10:	iGenesis posted... Wtf is a Roaring Moon. A Past Paradox Pokemans. <cite>DodogamaRayBrst posted [p:984637095] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>iGenesis posted... </cite><quote>Wtf is a Roaring Moon.</quote>A Past Paradox Pokemans. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ellis123 04/07/25 7:27:25 PM #11:	iGenesis posted... Wtf is a Roaring Moon. https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/9/957b8ced.jpg --- "A shouted order to do something of dubious morality with an unpredictable outcome? Thweeet!" My FC is in my profile. <cite>ellis123 posted [p:984637103] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>iGenesis posted... </cite><quote>Wtf is a Roaring Moon.</quote>https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/9/957b8ced.jpg</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/07/25 7:27:37 PM #12:	PerseusRad posted... Haze and phasing-type moves arent exactly uncommon, and yet BP is still banned. Perhaps theres a reason it was banned despite there technically being counterplay. The idea is like if you have to bring counterplay because you're fucked if they have X and you don't have Y, it gets banned. So it's not really a matter of can this strategy be beaten it's more like does this strategy push towards a "solved" meta. The idea is to be able to create as many different viable teams as possible. --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://i.imgur.com/dQgC4kv.jpg <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:984637104] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>PerseusRad posted... </cite><quote>Haze and phasing-type moves arent exactly uncommon, and yet BP is still banned. Perhaps theres a reason it was banned despite there technically being counterplay.</quote>The idea is like if you have to bring counterplay because you're fucked if they have X and you don't have Y, it gets banned. So it's not really a matter of can this strategy be beaten it's more like does this strategy push towards a "solved" meta. The idea is to be able to create as many different viable teams as possible. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Garioshi 04/07/25 7:29:30 PM #13:	Tyranthraxus posted... There's a good chance Champions will make Smogon completely obsolete anyway. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha --- "I play with myself" - Darklit_Minuet, 2018 <cite>Garioshi posted [p:984637121] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Tyranthraxus posted... </cite><quote>There's a good chance Champions will make Smogon completely obsolete anyway.</quote>Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
PerseusRad 04/07/25 7:33:41 PM #14:	Tyranthraxus posted... The idea is like if you have to bring counterplay because you're fucked if they have X and you don't have Y, it gets banned. So it's not really a matter of can this strategy be beaten it's more like does this strategy push towards a "solved" meta. The idea is to be able to create as many different viable teams as possible. It was a bit of a rhetorical statement, I do get the reason. BP is basically a dominant strategy, there are plenty of ways to shut down the counterplay, such as abilities like Suction Cups or simply using Taunt and Sub. It pretty much simplifies the game to do they get the BP chain going or not <cite>PerseusRad posted [p:984637163] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Tyranthraxus posted... </cite><quote>The idea is like if you have to bring counterplay because you're fucked if they have X and you don't have Y, it gets banned. So it's not really a matter of can this strategy be beaten it's more like does this strategy push towards a "solved" meta. The idea is to be able to create as many different viable teams as possible.</quote>It was a bit of a rhetorical statement, I do get the reason. BP is basically a dominant strategy, there are plenty of ways to shut down the counterplay, such as abilities like Suction Cups or simply using Taunt and Sub. It pretty much simplifies the game to do they get the BP chain going or not</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Unknown5uspect 04/07/25 7:36:34 PM #15:	Tyranthraxus posted... The idea is like if you have to bring counterplay because you're fucked if they have X and you don't have Y, it gets banned. So it's not really a matter of can this strategy be beaten it's more like does this strategy push towards a "solved" meta. The idea is to be able to create as many different viable teams as possible. The most glaring example of this I've experienced being gen 4 Garchomp when everyone's team was Sandstormer (and stealth rocker), Garchomp, Garchomp Counter 1, Garchomp Counter 2, Spinner, Free Space --- How can the moon landing be real if the moon isn't real? <cite>Unknown5uspect posted [p:984637190] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Tyranthraxus posted... </cite><quote>The idea is like if you have to bring counterplay because you're fucked if they have X and you don't have Y, it gets banned. So it's not really a matter of can this strategy be beaten it's more like does this strategy push towards a "solved" meta. The idea is to be able to create as many different viable teams as possible.</quote>The most glaring example of this I've experienced being gen 4 Garchomp when everyone's team was Sandstormer (and stealth rocker), Garchomp, Garchomp Counter 1, Garchomp Counter 2, Spinner, Free Space</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LightningAce11 04/07/25 8:12:28 PM #16:	Ironically smogon formats are there to let a wide variety of teams and strats be viable. If they really didnt ban or make any rulesets, every team would have 6 calyrex and arceus and zacian etc. And then people would still complain about that. --- I want you to grab your nuts. Grab your balls. I want you to take a handful, and just grab your nuts real quick. Swivel 'em around in a circular motion. -LTG <cite>LightningAce11 posted [p:984637617] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Ironically smogon formats are there to let a wide variety of teams and strats be viable. If they really didnt ban or make any rulesets, every team would have 6 calyrex and arceus and zacian etc. And then people would still complain about that. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Umbreon 04/07/25 8:30:20 PM #17:	Honestly glad Smogon only lets people who prove they know what the fuck they're doing have a say in banlists, your average casual player doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about. They're the types to claim that "RBY Mewtwo isn't broken because Chansey can wall it!" Unless it crits. Or gets a Special drop. Or it has Submission. Oh and you need to have Light Screen or you still die for free. --- Black Lives Matter. ~DYL~ (On mobile) <cite>Umbreon posted [p:984637817] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Honestly glad Smogon only lets people who prove they know what the fuck they're doing have a say in banlists, your average casual player doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.They're the types to claim that "RBY Mewtwo isn't broken because Chansey can wall it!"Unless it crits.Or gets a Special drop.Or it has Submission.Oh and you need to have Light Screen or you still die for free.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DodogamaRayBrst 04/07/25 8:37:24 PM #18:	I just assumed there were more people who knew what the fuck they're doing than could fit on a single bus. <cite>DodogamaRayBrst posted [p:984637927] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>I just assumed there were more people who knew what the fuck they're doing than could fit on a single bus. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
AbsolutelyNoOne 04/07/25 8:43:53 PM #19:	Smogon has been doing suspect tests for over two and a half decade (iirc, the very first one was DP Garchomp) and I think 110-ish is about right for how many people they get. as mentioned you need to be qualified to vote, ie basically prove you have a good idea of the metagame by having actually played it. They also have controversial tests all the time. Just a few months ago Machamp got banned from DP because its Dynamicpunch spam (especially in combination with its damage output, coverage and paralysis) was deemed just way too much of a RNG slugfest to deal with. Even though a lot of people (including people who also wanted something done about Machamp) wanted something done with Jirachi too because of its RNG slugfests required to deal with it which they still have not done. --- Born to lose, live to win! <cite>AbsolutelyNoOne posted [p:984638000] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Smogon has been doing suspect tests for over two and a half decade (iirc, the very first one was DP Garchomp) and I think 110-ish is about right for how many people they get. as mentioned you need to be qualified to vote, ie basically prove you have a good idea of the metagame by having actually played it.They also have controversial tests all the time. Just a few months ago Machamp got banned from DP because its Dynamicpunch spam (especially in combination with its damage output, coverage and paralysis) was deemed just way too much of a RNG slugfest to deal with. Even though a lot of people (including people who also wanted something done about Machamp) wanted something done with Jirachi too because of its RNG slugfests required to deal with it which they still have not done.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
uwnim 04/07/25 8:55:18 PM #20:	Players have to meet the requirements for the suspect test to be able to vote. People who aren't good enough can't vote. People who don't want to go through the process of trying to get reqs can't vote. --- I want a pet Lavos Spawn. [Order of the Cetaceans: Phocoena dioptrica] <cite>uwnim posted [p:984638143] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Players have to meet the requirements for the suspect test to be able to vote. People who aren't good enough can't vote. People who don't want to go through the process of trying to get reqs can't vote.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ellis123 04/07/25 8:56:08 PM #21:	DodogamaRayBrst posted... I just assumed there were more people who knew what the fuck they're doing than could fit on a single bus. Nope. Most of the people into Pokemon are kids. --- "A shouted order to do something of dubious morality with an unpredictable outcome? Thweeet!" My FC is in my profile. <cite>ellis123 posted [p:984638154] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>DodogamaRayBrst posted... </cite><quote>I just assumed there were more people who knew what the fuck they're doing than could fit on a single bus.</quote>Nope. Most of the people into Pokemon are kids.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Metal_Gear_Raxis 04/07/25 9:03:43 PM #22:	Hey it's been ages since I've seen some good old fashioned anti-Smogon casual elitism! --- Time is a funny thing, you know? I guess in the big picture of my life, you were only a blip. But oftentimes, those "blips" make the biggest impacts. <cite>Metal_Gear_Raxis posted [p:984638241] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Hey it's been ages since I've seen some good old fashioned anti-Smogon casual elitism!</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kisai 04/07/25 9:33:12 PM #23:	DodogamaRayBrst posted... I just assumed there were more people who knew what the fuck they're doing than could fit on a single bus. There might be. You can't assume the total amount of votes constitutes the entire community. Maybe some people didn't know about the voting. Maybe some people don't care. Also, certain websites' popularity changes with time. I doubt even Serebii gets the same traffic it used to. Hell, look at the one you're on now. GameFAQs doesn't even come up in search results for games. There's a lot of factors that could be at play. --- WHO MODS THE MODERATORS? <cite>Kisai posted [p:984638563] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>DodogamaRayBrst posted... </cite><quote>I just assumed there were more people who knew what the fuck they're doing than could fit on a single bus.</quote>There might be. You can't assume the total amount of votes constitutes the entire community. Maybe some people didn't know about the voting. Maybe some people don't care. Also, certain websites' popularity changes with time. I doubt even Serebii gets the same traffic it used to. Hell, look at the one you're on now. GameFAQs doesn't even come up in search results for games. There's a lot of factors that could be at play.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MrFingers07 04/07/25 9:48:29 PM #24:	Yeah, anyone could be a voter. You just have to make a Smogon account, a showdown account and be good enough in the ladder. And if I remember correctly the requirements to get a vote isn't all that bad. But alot of people just don't care too much. --- :D Brawlin' Mains: R.O.B., Lucario, Pikachu, Wolf <cite>MrFingers07 posted [p:984638758] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Yeah, anyone could be a voter. You just have to make a Smogon account, a showdown account and be good enough in the ladder. And if I remember correctly the requirements to get a vote isn't all that bad. But alot of people just don't care too much.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
GiftedACIII 04/07/25 9:57:11 PM #25:	TMOG posted... I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team. They banned the King's Rock item for having a 10% Flinch chance, but are absolutely fine with Stealth Rock decimating Fire and Flying types every time they switch in. Bro, at least watch some False Swipe Gaming or Freezai or Jimothy Cool before you say nonsense that even 12 year olds on r/Pokemon know is false. They've had hundreds to thousands of tournaments with Baton Pass throughout over a decade before they decided it was unhealthy. They've had articles specifically about how to make dedicated Baton Pass teams. It's one of the most OP tactics even in Anything Goes where you can use 6 Arceus. https://www.smogon.com/rs/articles/baton_pass https://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/baton_pass_chains https://www.smogon.com/articles/ag-baton-pass Also from what I've seen King's Rock isn't banned in SV but Skill Link King's Rock is worse than Shaymin-S. Anyone still complaining about Stealth Rock in 2020s is a scrub. Entry hazards are needed for games to not become endless Regenerator switching and stalling. There have been many many ways to counterplay entry hazards since Gen 6 and especially Gen 8's heavy-duty boots which have become one of the most common items in singles, it's way more strategic than uncompetitive RNG BS like evasion and having to worry about any random sweeper being able to stop their checks due to a random 10% flinch. --- </topic> <cite>GiftedACIII posted [p:984638882] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>TMOG posted... </cite><quote>I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team.They banned the King's Rock item for having a 10% Flinch chance, but are absolutely fine with Stealth Rock decimating Fire and Flying types every time they switch in.</quote>Bro, at least watch some False Swipe Gaming or Freezai or Jimothy Cool before you say nonsense that even 12 year olds on r/Pokemon know is false.They've had hundreds to thousands of tournaments with Baton Pass throughout over a decade before they decided it was unhealthy. They've had articles specifically about how to make dedicated Baton Pass teams.It's one of the most OP tactics even in Anything Goes where you can use 6 Arceus. https://www.smogon.com/rs/articles/baton_passhttps://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/baton_pass_chainshttps://www.smogon.com/articles/ag-baton-passAlso from what I've seen King's Rock isn't banned in SV but Skill Link King's Rock is worse than Shaymin-S. Anyone still complaining about Stealth Rock in 2020s is a scrub. Entry hazards are needed for games to not become endless Regenerator switching and stalling. There have been many many ways to counterplay entry hazards since Gen 6 and especially Gen 8's heavy-duty boots which have become one of the most common items in singles, it's way more strategic than uncompetitive RNG BS like evasion and having to worry about any random sweeper being able to stop their checks due to a random 10% flinch.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pojr 04/07/25 10:01:18 PM #26:	Unrelated, but I always thought it was weird that Nintendo pretends that competitive singles doesn't exist. It's all about doubles. --- pojr I summon it. You spell it. <cite>pojr posted [p:984638922] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Unrelated, but I always thought it was weird that Nintendo pretends that competitive singles doesn't exist. It's all about doubles.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ellis123 04/07/25 10:14:14 PM #27:	pojr posted... Unrelated, but I always thought it was weird that Nintendo pretends that competitive singles doesn't exist. It's all about doubles. It's because it's way easier to balance one format instead of two and doubles fits the "everything is OP so nothing is" that is popular with Japanese kids. --- "A shouted order to do something of dubious morality with an unpredictable outcome? Thweeet!" My FC is in my profile. <cite>ellis123 posted [p:984639069] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>pojr posted... </cite><quote>Unrelated, but I always thought it was weird that Nintendo pretends that competitive singles doesn't exist. It's all about doubles.</quote>It's because it's way easier to balance one format instead of two and doubles fits the "everything is OP so nothing is" that is popular with Japanese kids.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordFarquad1312 04/07/25 10:55:31 PM #28:	iGenesis posted... Wtf is a Roaring Moon. --- El sexo sucio y el planeta limpio. "If you are tired of fear from links... Let Kirby's Nightmare protect you." <cite>LordFarquad1312 posted [p:984639503] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>iGenesis posted... </cite><quote>Wtf is a Roaring Moon.</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 04/07/25 10:57:13 PM #29:	LordFarquad1312 posted... Wtf is a Roaring Moon. Paradox Ancient Salamence --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://i.imgur.com/dQgC4kv.jpg <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:984639518] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>LordFarquad1312 posted... </cite><quote>Wtf is a Roaring Moon.</quote>Paradox Ancient Salamence</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Metal_Gear_Raxis 04/08/25 2:17:56 AM #30:	GiftedACIII posted... Bro, at least watch some False Swipe Gaming or Freezai or Jimothy Cool before you say nonsense that even 12 year olds on r/Pokemon know is false. Big Yellow is also a good source of info, though more for Gen 1. --- Time is a funny thing, you know? I guess in the big picture of my life, you were only a blip. But oftentimes, those "blips" make the biggest impacts. <cite>Metal_Gear_Raxis posted [p:984640652] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>GiftedACIII posted... </cite><quote>Bro, at least watch some False Swipe Gaming or Freezai or Jimothy Cool before you say nonsense that even 12 year olds on r/Pokemon know is false.</quote>Big Yellow is also a good source of info, though more for Gen 1.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Twinklestar 04/08/25 2:50:15 AM #31:	Tyranthraxus posted... There's a good chance Champions will make Smogon completely obsolete anyway. Showdown, yes. Smogon? No lol, Smogon would still exist even with Champions released <cite>Twinklestar posted [p:984640764] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Tyranthraxus posted...</cite><quote>There's a good chance Champions will make Smogon completely obsolete anyway.</quote>Showdown, yes. Smogon? No lol, Smogon would still exist even with Champions released</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
legendarylemur 04/08/25 4:56:29 AM #32:	My competitive teams were always whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever, Breloom --- "Iwata was awesome" - Mr. Nintendo https://i.imgur.com/krtFHol.jpg <cite>legendarylemur posted [p:984641222] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>My competitive teams were always whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever, Breloom</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
GiftedACIII 04/08/25 7:35:39 AM #33:	Metal_Gear_Raxis posted... Big Yellow is also a good source of info, though more for Gen 1. Oh yeah, he's a good one too. I was trying to remember his name but I forgot and figured he mostly did the early generations but indeed he did have some good videos on stuff throughout multiple generations. Also, I just remembered that back in Gen 6 ZU (called FU at the time) I actually managed to get to top 10 leaderboards with a Huntail Shell Smash Baton Pass gimmick team https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/fu-203915829 (this was a team that pretty much countered baton pass although I got super lucky here lol) It was nowhere near optimized, I used unviable gimmicks like Dustox, Regigigas, Dedenne, and Unfezant (who were bad even in ZU) and it says a lot that I still managed to get to top 10 with these bozos lol. --- </topic> <cite>GiftedACIII posted [p:984641753] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Metal_Gear_Raxis posted... </cite><quote>Big Yellow is also a good source of info, though more for Gen 1.</quote>Oh yeah, he's a good one too. I was trying to remember his name but I forgot and figured he mostly did the early generations but indeed he did have some good videos on stuff throughout multiple generations.Also, I just remembered that back in Gen 6 ZU (called FU at the time) I actually managed to get to top 10 leaderboards with a Huntail Shell Smash Baton Pass gimmick team https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/fu-203915829 (this was a team that pretty much countered baton pass although I got super lucky here lol)It was nowhere near optimized, I used unviable gimmicks like Dustox, Regigigas, Dedenne, and Unfezant (who were bad even in ZU) and it says a lot that I still managed to get to top 10 with these bozos lol.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SilvosForever 04/08/25 7:55:24 AM #34:	I don't see the point in Smogon having different rules than the official Nintendo tournaments? Like why practice all that much, just to get smashed at a real tournament by someone using a Pokemon you haven't even played against? --- All your favorite RPGs: http://www.youtube.com/user/silvosforever http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af84/silvosforever/funnygif.gif <cite>SilvosForever posted [p:984641839] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>I don't see the point in Smogon having different rules than the official Nintendo tournaments? Like why practice all that much, just to get smashed at a real tournament by someone using a Pokemon you haven't even played against?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DodogamaRayBrst 04/08/25 8:00:56 AM #35:	SilvosForever posted... I don't see the point in Smogon having different rules than the official Nintendo tournaments? Like why practice all that much, just to get smashed at a real tournament by someone using a Pokemon you haven't even played against? Smogon focuses on the singles format that isn't supported by Nintendo. All official Nintendo tournaments are doubles. It is in essence a different game crafted from a common pool of material and it's a good thing that there is a community that supports and creates a competitive system for the unsupported format that was the only way to play pokemon for I think the first two generations of the franchise and still in all future games correspond to 99% of the in-game battle experience a player has. <cite>DodogamaRayBrst posted [p:984641869] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>SilvosForever posted... </cite><quote>I don't see the point in Smogon having different rules than the official Nintendo tournaments? Like why practice all that much, just to get smashed at a real tournament by someone using a Pokemon you haven't even played against?</quote>Smogon focuses on the singles format that isn't supported by Nintendo. All official Nintendo tournaments are doubles. It is in essence a different game crafted from a common pool of material and it's a good thing that there is a community that supports and creates a competitive system for the unsupported format that was the only way to play pokemon for I think the first two generations of the franchise and still in all future games correspond to 99% of the in-game battle experience a player has. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
02fran 04/08/25 8:05:38 AM #36:	DodogamaRayBrst posted... Smogon focuses on the singles format that isn't supported by Nintendo. All official Nintendo tournaments are doubles. It is in essence a different game and it's a good thing that there is a community that supports and creates a competitive system for the unsupported format that was the only way to play pokemon for I think the first two generations of the franchise and still in all future games correspond to 99% of the in-game battle experience a player has. VGC format is also just not what the games do. Only pick 4 out of 6, item clause, you can choose 2 restricted mons in restricted formats, forced level 50 etc. That said, Showdown DOES have a VGC ladder and community and it's where a lot of VGC top rankers practice. <cite>02fran posted [p:984641896] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>DodogamaRayBrst posted... </cite><quote>Smogon focuses on the singles format that isn't supported by Nintendo. All official Nintendo tournaments are doubles. It is in essence a different game and it's a good thing that there is a community that supports and creates a competitive system for the unsupported format that was the only way to play pokemon for I think the first two generations of the franchise and still in all future games correspond to 99% of the in-game battle experience a player has.</quote>VGC format is also just not what the games do. Only pick 4 out of 6, item clause, you can choose 2 restricted mons in restricted formats, forced level 50 etc.That said, Showdown DOES have a VGC ladder and community and it's where a lot of VGC top rankers practice.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
lucariopikmin 04/08/25 8:23:58 AM #37:	TMOG posted... I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team. They banned the King's Rock item for having a 10% Flinch chance, but are absolutely fine with Stealth Rock decimating Fire and Flying types every time they switch in. They limitted BP to 3 mon only, still to strong, 2 mon only, still too strong, 1 mon only, still too strong, 1 mon only without speed boosts, still too strong. And they've tested a SRless meta before, back when there were less ways to deal with it, shit pokemon did not become any better while actually good stuff that got used with SR became more of a problem. --- 3DS FC: 2380-2873-6073 Sun IGN: Evelyn Sword IGN: Fiora <cite>lucariopikmin posted [p:984642003] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>TMOG posted... </cite><quote>I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team.They banned the King's Rock item for having a 10% Flinch chance, but are absolutely fine with Stealth Rock decimating Fire and Flying types every time they switch in.</quote>They limitted BP to 3 mon only, still to strong, 2 mon only, still too strong, 1 mon only, still too strong, 1 mon only without speed boosts, still too strong.And they've tested a SRless meta before, back when there were less ways to deal with it, shit pokemon did not become any better while actually good stuff that got used with SR became more of a problem.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Metal_Gear_Raxis 04/08/25 9:08:47 AM #38:	GiftedACIII posted... Oh yeah, he's a good one too. I was trying to remember his name but I forgot and figured he mostly did the early generations but indeed he did have some good videos on stuff throughout multiple generations. I'm pretty sure Big Yellow does by they/them. --- Time is a funny thing, you know? I guess in the big picture of my life, you were only a blip. But oftentimes, those "blips" make the biggest impacts. <cite>Metal_Gear_Raxis posted [p:984642309] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>GiftedACIII posted... </cite><quote>Oh yeah, he's a good one too. I was trying to remember his name but I forgot and figured he mostly did the early generations but indeed he did have some good videos on stuff throughout multiple generations.</quote>I'm pretty sure Big Yellow does by they/them.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
uwnim 04/08/25 9:14:24 AM #39:	lucariopikmin posted... They limitted BP to 3 mon only, still to strong, 2 mon only, still too strong, 1 mon only, still too strong, 1 mon only without speed boosts, still too strong. And they've tested a SRless meta before, back when there were less ways to deal with it, shit pokemon did not become any better while actually good stuff that got used with SR became more of a problem. Im guessing that things like Volcarona become a lot stronger. --- I want a pet Lavos Spawn. [Order of the Cetaceans: Phocoena dioptrica] <cite>uwnim posted [p:984642349] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>lucariopikmin posted... </cite><quote>They limitted BP to 3 mon only, still to strong, 2 mon only, still too strong, 1 mon only, still too strong, 1 mon only without speed boosts, still too strong.And they've tested a SRless meta before, back when there were less ways to deal with it, shit pokemon did not become any better while actually good stuff that got used with SR became more of a problem.</quote>Im guessing that things like Volcarona become a lot stronger.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
GiftedACIII 04/08/25 9:19:29 AM #40:	Metal_Gear_Raxis posted... I'm pretty sure Big Yellow does by they/them. Gotcha, I haven't watched them in awhile. --- </topic> <cite>GiftedACIII posted [p:984642396] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Metal_Gear_Raxis posted... </cite><quote>I'm pretty sure Big Yellow does by they/them.</quote>Gotcha, I haven't watched them in awhile. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Fenrir_Howls 04/08/25 2:24:13 PM #41:	Tyranthraxus posted... Paradox Ancient Mega Salamence --- Loki's Good Boy <cite>Fenrir_Howls posted [p:984645714] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Tyranthraxus posted...</cite><quote>Paradox Ancient Mega Salamence</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChocoboMogALT 04/08/25 2:37:37 PM #42:	pojr posted... Unrelated, but I always thought it was weird that Nintendo pretends that competitive singles doesn't exist. It's all about doubles. Almost the whole main game has you playing 1v1, but official tournaments are 2v2. Yeah, it's weird. I do think it's because 1v1 has been more "solved" and is often more stall-y. --- "We live in a country Hasire.." ~ yosouf06 REVOLVER STAKE! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v717/ChocoboMog123/AltEisenRChocoboMog.png <cite>ChocoboMogALT posted [p:984645861] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>pojr posted... </cite><quote>Unrelated, but I always thought it was weird that Nintendo pretends that competitive singles doesn't exist. It's all about doubles.</quote>Almost the whole main game has you playing 1v1, but official tournaments are 2v2. Yeah, it's weird. I do think it's because 1v1 has been more "solved" and is often more stall-y.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Uta 04/08/25 3:18:24 PM #43:	TMOG posted... I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team. They banned the King's Rock item for having a 10% Flinch chance, but are absolutely fine with Stealth Rock decimating Fire and Flying types every time they switch in. They weren't fine with Stealth Rocks. Stealth Rocks was perhaps gen 4's most controversial move. Smogon's main rule when defining what needs to be banned or not is whether or not something is over-centralizing to the meta. Take Gen 4's controversial Garchomp ban. This happened because Garchomp was essentially 100% usage rate. Even if you didn't use a Garchomp. You needed no less than two counters to Garchomp. You needed two, because there were no true counters to Garchomp thanks to Sandveil. Starmie was your best bet as a revenge killer, anything else wasn't terribly reliable. The entire meta was defined by Garchomp. And so despite most of the more casual players hating the decision, they banned Garchomp. Stealth Rocks was in a similar camp, but Stealth Rocks had counters. It also wasn't RNG-focused which is something they consider when banning items. They try to mitigate luck-based wins wherever possible. Somewhat inconsistently. Togekiss para/flinch is allowed. King's Rock isn't. It's a little silly at times, but they do care about mitigating luck. So even though SR was extremely powerful and definitely over-centralizing, they decided it had enough checks and balances to be allowed. Though this was not a unified voice. There were tons of players constantly championing the move be banned outright. But yeah, that over-centralizing thing is their main tool in determining if something is too strong. And now we've arrived at the modern gaming landscape where Pokemon has started including super moves and empowered states that are by nature designed to centralize the meta around their usage. And all of them break Smogon's inherent rules. Mega Evolutions were completely overpowered. Z-Moves were often too strong too. Gigantamax was ridiculous. Even Terrastalization makes powerful Pokmon impossible to reliably counter. All of these either made it impossible to counter an opponent's strat reliably, or dominated the meta too strongly to be allowed. Though at this point, I think Smogon needs to let go of tradition and find new criteria to ban things about. Banning every game's flagship mechanic just isn't helpful anymore. ChocoboMogALT posted... Almost the whole main game has you playing 1v1, but official tournaments are 2v2. Yeah, it's weird. I do think it's because 1v1 has been more "solved" and is often more stall-y. Nah this is 100% for time. Double Battles are quicker. TOs can get through the hundreds of participants faster if they do double battles. That's all the reason they do doubles for tournaments. --- She / Her Others don't get to dictate what's normal and what isn't. It's something we decide for ourselves. <cite>Uta posted [p:984646377] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>TMOG posted... </cite><quote>I always find it funny how Smogon is always so eager to just ban things outright rather than adjust their meta in any way. They'd rather forbid anyone from using Baton Pass at all than put Haze or Whirlwind on a team.They banned the King's Rock item for having a 10% Flinch chance, but are absolutely fine with Stealth Rock decimating Fire and Flying types every time they switch in.</quote>They weren't fine with Stealth Rocks. Stealth Rocks was perhaps gen 4's most controversial move. Smogon's main rule when defining what needs to be banned or not is whether or not something is over-centralizing to the meta. Take Gen 4's controversial Garchomp ban. This happened because Garchomp was essentially 100% usage rate. Even if you didn't use a Garchomp. You needed no less than two counters to Garchomp. You needed two, because there were no true counters to Garchomp thanks to Sandveil. Starmie was your best bet as a revenge killer, anything else wasn't terribly reliable.The entire meta was defined by Garchomp. And so despite most of the more casual players hating the decision, they banned Garchomp. Stealth Rocks was in a similar camp, but Stealth Rocks had counters. It also wasn't RNG-focused which is something they consider when banning items. They try to mitigate luck-based wins wherever possible. Somewhat inconsistently. Togekiss para/flinch is allowed. King's Rock isn't. It's a little silly at times, but they do care about mitigating luck.So even though SR was extremely powerful and definitely over-centralizing, they decided it had enough checks and balances to be allowed. Though this was not a unified voice. There were tons of players constantly championing the move be banned outright. But yeah, that over-centralizing thing is their main tool in determining if something is too strong. And now we've arrived at the modern gaming landscape where Pokemon has started including super moves and empowered states that are by nature designed to centralize the meta around their usage. And all of them break Smogon's inherent rules. Mega Evolutions were completely overpowered. Z-Moves were often too strong too. Gigantamax was ridiculous. Even Terrastalization makes powerful Pokmon impossible to reliably counter. All of these either made it impossible to counter an opponent's strat reliably, or dominated the meta too strongly to be allowed.Though at this point, I think Smogon needs to let go of tradition and find new criteria to ban things about. Banning every game's flagship mechanic just isn't helpful anymore. ChocoboMogALT posted... </cite><quote>Almost the whole main game has you playing 1v1, but official tournaments are 2v2. Yeah, it's weird. I do think it's because 1v1 has been more "solved" and is often more stall-y.</quote>Nah this is 100% for time. Double Battles are quicker. TOs can get through the hundreds of participants faster if they do double battles. That's all the reason they do doubles for tournaments.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
GiftedACIII 04/08/25 3:33:14 PM #44:	TBF theyve only banned Dmax, the worst generational mechanic. Despite a lot of controversy and people pushing for it, Tera managed to remain last I checked. Z moves and Megas as a mechanic also remained. Personally I think Pokmon should stick with some of these new mechanics and refine them rather than throwing away the previous gen mechanics and haphazardly making new untested gimmicks in their place as if it was a single player only adventure game when they themselves have been pushing for the competitive PVP side more and more. --- </topic> <cite>GiftedACIII posted [p:984646538] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>TBF theyve only banned Dmax, the worst generational mechanic. Despite a lot of controversy and people pushing for it, Tera managed to remain last I checked. Z moves and Megas as a mechanic also remained. Personally I think Pokmon should stick with some of these new mechanics and refine them rather than throwing away the previous gen mechanics and haphazardly making new untested gimmicks in their place as if it was a single player only adventure game when they themselves have been pushing for the competitive PVP side more and more.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
legendarylemur 04/08/25 5:09:22 PM #45:	Dmax ended up being kinda interesting in VGC format at least. But the SwSh format was so brief it's hard to remember much. Terra ended up being a bit more interesting for VGC than DMax, so there's that. --- "Iwata was awesome" - Mr. Nintendo https://i.imgur.com/krtFHol.jpg <cite>legendarylemur posted [p:984647713] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Dmax ended up being kinda interesting in VGC format at least. But the SwSh format was so brief it's hard to remember much. Terra ended up being a bit more interesting for VGC than DMax, so there's that.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
FL81 04/08/25 6:04:43 PM #46:	DodogamaRayBrst posted... Is it just a tiny kabal of people sititng at an illuminati table deciding how to structure the rules for people who want to engage competitively with the biggest franchise of the world outside of the official doubles format? Yes. --- https://i.imgur.com/TGkNCva.gif https://i.imgur.com/8mWCvA4.gif <cite>FL81 posted [p:984648421] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>DodogamaRayBrst posted... </cite><quote>Is it just a tiny kabal of people sititng at an illuminati table deciding how to structure the rules for people who want to engage competitively with the biggest franchise of the world outside of the official doubles format?</quote>Yes.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LightningAce11 04/08/25 7:19:26 PM #47:	Doubles also allows for a lot more strategies not afforded by singles like perish trap, fake out and follow me support, self targeting etc. All singles really has is stall. --- I want you to grab your nuts. Grab your balls. I want you to take a handful, and just grab your nuts real quick. Swivel 'em around in a circular motion. -LTG <cite>LightningAce11 posted [p:984649291] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Doubles also allows for a lot more strategies not afforded by singles like perish trap, fake out and follow me support, self targeting etc. All singles really has is stall. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
legendarylemur 04/08/25 7:40:21 PM #48:	Singles just feels outdated now. VGC decision making potential and balance are so far above Smogon's OU etc formats nowadays --- "Iwata was awesome" - Mr. Nintendo https://i.imgur.com/krtFHol.jpg <cite>legendarylemur posted [p:984649520] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Singles just feels outdated now. VGC decision making potential and balance are so far above Smogon's OU etc formats nowadays</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ChocoboMogALT 04/08/25 7:47:06 PM #49:	LightningAce11 posted... Doubles also allows for a lot more strategies not afforded by singles like perish trap, fake out and follow me support, self targeting etc. All singles really has is stall. Stall: exists. "All singles has is stall, nope no other team types whatsoever." legendarylemur posted... Singles just feels outdated now. VGC decision making potential and balance are so far above Smogon's OU etc formats nowadays Almost entirety of Pokemon focuses on singles outside of VGC. The main game, anime, most of stadium, battle towers, etc. VGC uses doubles for time, because it's less stall-y, and probably because they don't want to edge into Smogon-ish territory. --- "We live in a country Hasire.." ~ yosouf06 REVOLVER STAKE! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v717/ChocoboMog123/AltEisenRChocoboMog.png <cite>ChocoboMogALT posted [p:984649601] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>LightningAce11 posted... </cite><quote>Doubles also allows for a lot more strategies not afforded by singles like perish trap, fake out and follow me support, self targeting etc.All singles really has is stall.</quote>Stall: exists."All singles has is stall, nope no other team types whatsoever."legendarylemur posted... </cite><quote>Singles just feels outdated now. VGC decision making potential and balance are so far above Smogon's OU etc formats nowadays</quote>Almost entirety of Pokemon focuses on singles outside of VGC. The main game, anime, most of stadium, battle towers, etc. VGC uses doubles for time, because it's less stall-y, and probably because they don't want to edge into Smogon-ish territory.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
legendarylemur 04/08/25 8:12:01 PM #50:	Doubles is less stall-y because inherently you can double up into a single mon so stall strategies have actual counters. That and several moves that are weaker and AOE to boot, it gives more edge than singles where it's constantly shuffling around til you get 1 good rotation into knocking out 1 Pokemon that starts a big chain. You can lose 1 Pokemon in doubles and still have a chance cuz it's much easier to trade in kills. It's also much harder to do a big setup strat in Doubles because you can double up. Even though most of the Pokemon games are singles, which tbh is Gamefreak's fault for being incapable of designing a good campaign, the competitive is doubles. If singles was actually that much better, there would be demand for a different official format, but there really isn't --- "Iwata was awesome" - Mr. Nintendo https://i.imgur.com/krtFHol.jpg <cite>legendarylemur posted [p:984649851] in Smogon... [t:80963464]...</cite> <quote>Doubles is less stall-y because inherently you can double up into a single mon so stall strategies have actual counters. That and several moves that are weaker and AOE to boot, it gives more edge than singles where it's constantly shuffling around til you get 1 good rotation into knocking out 1 Pokemon that starts a big chain. You can lose 1 Pokemon in doubles and still have a chance cuz it's much easier to trade in kills. It's also much harder to do a big setup strat in Doubles because you can double up.Even though most of the Pokemon games are singles, which tbh is Gamefreak's fault for being incapable of designing a good campaign, the competitive is doubles. If singles was actually that much better, there would be demand for a different official format, but there really isn't</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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