Current Events > Remember when Squeenix left out FF characters in Kingdom Hearts 3?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Wtf was up with that?

Haven't played KH3, and played the others a long long time ago, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Disney side of things always way more prominent than the FF side anyway?

It was.

They Usually stayed in one area of many, with a small few appearing of other worlds briefly

Auron in the Hercules/ Underworld was p neat

chris1001_the_sequel posted...

Haven't played KH3, and played the others a long long time ago, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Disney side of things always way more prominent than the FF side anyway?

Not really. When the first game came out in 2002, the Final Fantasy franchise was king shit of RPG mountain, and Disney was smack dab in the middle of its post-Renaissance pre-Pixar slump. The promise of a more-or-less equal crossover was the game's biggest selling point, and ads for the game pushed FF characters almost as hard as they did Disney characters.

I have no idea, but I know the general working theory was that KH4 would have Final Fantasy worlds in it. No clue if that was actually to be the case, but I would have loved to run around Lindblum or Midgar as Sora. Maybe even Narshe.

masterpug53 posted...

Not really. When the first game came out in 2002, the Final Fantasy franchise was king shit of RPG mountain, and Disney was smack dab in the middle of its post-Renaissance pre-Pixar slump. The promise of a more-or-less equal crossover was the game's biggest selling point, and ads for the game pushed FF characters almost as hard as they did Disney characters.

Yeah, the FF cameos were marketed heavily, pretty sure there was some who probably bought it just for them. Also keep in mind, this would be the first time many of the FF7 and FF8 characters would be fully-rendered in 3D with actual voices so that was a draw as well.

Ivany2008 posted...

I have no idea, but I know the general working theory was that KH4 would have Final Fantasy worlds in it. No clue if that was actually to be the case, but I would have loved to run around Lindblum or Midgar as Sora. Maybe even Narshe.

why are you saying was as in past tense

There was nothing weird about that. Their biggest plot contribution in KH1 was exposition, and their biggest plot contribution in the series was in KH2 fighting alongside Sora for one battle. They've always been glorified cameos. Days and 3D didn't even have any FF characters. So why is it so weird they weren't in KH3? They were basically forgotten about already anyway.

Remember when every creative decision Nomura made in KH3 was awful?

I remember.

Ivynn posted...

Yeah, the FF cameos were marketed heavily, pretty sure there was some who probably bought it just for them. Also keep in mind, this would be the first time many of the FF7 and FF8 characters would be fully-rendered in 3D with actual voices so that was a draw as well.

Good point. Ngl, I gasped and choked up a little when Aerith first appeared. IIRC KH1 was her first appearance outside the OG FF7 and thus her first appearance after her death.

masterpug53 posted...

IIRC KH1 was her first appearance outside the OG FF7

That would be FFT.

DodogamaRayBrst posted...

Remember when every creative decision Nomura made in KH3 was awful?

I remember.

The writing hasn't been good since KH2. Everyone seems to hate BBS, but story-wise, I actually enjoyed the characters, character design, dialogue, and the plot. With a new villain like Xehanort, whose design felt like a classic Disney villain crossed with slight Square sensibilities, trying to manipulate two of the main characters, complete with a stubborn father-figure stuck in his ways, everything about BBS's story felt the most "Disney-ish" to me, and that's why I liked it more. It actually felt more like a return to form of KH1.

chris1001_the_sequel posted...

Haven't played KH3, and played the others a long long time ago, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Disney side of things always way more prominent than the FF side anyway?

I wouldn't say way more prominent. At least, not if you cut out the filler.

ellis123 posted...

That would be FFT.

Oh, right. You could make an argument that the 'Flower Peddler' is just an Aerith lookalike, but you could just as easily make an argument that the KH versions of these characters aren't the 'real' ones either.

Still, like Ivynn said, next-gen 3D modeling + voice acting made it extra-special.

I missed them. Other than that I respected the decision. They make a nice part of the supporting cast but do not make or break the games for me.

Unpopular opinion, they never should have been in the Kingdom hearts games.

masterpug53 posted...

but you could just as easily make an argument that the KH versions of these characters aren't the 'real' ones either.

They're Cloud and Aerith, they're just from what we call an "alternate universe". It's a very common thing in video games and comics.

AceMos posted...

why are you saying was as in past tense

Because there was no actual proof that was going to be the case, only that Sora went to a more realistic world in the preview for 4. So it was a lot of speculation a couple years ago.

Ivany2008 posted...

I have no idea, but I know the general working theory was that KH4 would have Final Fantasy worlds in it. No clue if that was actually to be the case, but I would have loved to run around Lindblum or Midgar as Sora. Maybe even Narshe.

The world under the clouds from 3 would be perfect. It feels right at home among Hollow Bastion or the Realm of Darkness tbh.

I don't remember what they called it, but the part where you meet Aria.

I mean it was kind of a silly thing to do, but I was drawn to the KH games because of the Disney aspect, so their exclusion was not a deal breaker for me.

chris1001_the_sequel posted...

Haven't played KH3, and played the others a long long time ago, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Disney side of things always way more prominent than the FF side anyway?

Yes. First game they're the first characters you meet as Sora. And they had cameos on like 3 worlds. KH2 they're all on one world. KH3, not even a mention. Unless you want to count the whole Verum Rex stuff.

Yeah, KH3 not having any FF characters was really dumb. Esp with how many scenes takes place in Radiant Garden, where they mostly all live.

Nomura def heard the backlash, though, since he added some back in for the DLC. But I have no hope of them showing up in KH4 (despite the new hub world basically being called "Square.").

You had to get the DLC

It was Nomura's decision in order to not complicate the story for that game any further. I hope they come back though, the Hollow Bastion crew was shown for the ReMind stuff.

Basically it was said in KH3 development that they weren't important and so got rid of them

masterpug53 posted...

Not really. When the first game came out in 2002, the Final Fantasy franchise was king shit of RPG mountain, and Disney was smack dab in the middle of its post-Renaissance pre-Pixar slump. The promise of a more-or-less equal crossover was the game's biggest selling point, and ads for the game pushed FF characters almost as hard as they did Disney characters.

Winnie the Pooh alone had as many characters in KH1 as Final Fantasy. It was never an equal crossover nor was it ever meant to be an equal crossover. The original idea was just a Disney game made by Squaresoft. The FF characters were just thrown in as a market gimmick.

Ivany2008 posted...

I have no idea, but I know the general working theory was that KH4 would have Final Fantasy worlds in it. No clue if that was actually to be the case, but I would have loved to run around Lindblum or Midgar as Sora. Maybe even Narshe.

I doubt Disney would actually give the go ahead for that.

IcyWind14 posted...

I doubt Disney would actually give the go ahead for that.

Why wouldnt they? Disney seems to pretty much hate the fact that KH original characters run around with their Disney originals considering the stuff we know they did in KH3. Like they made SE ensure SDG never interacted with Elsa in Frozen and made sure the Toy Story world had nothing to do with the series. Which made the Toy Story world one of the better ones.

Nomura said back in 2002 that there would never be Final Fantasy worlds, since their counterparts all live in either Disney worlds or original worlds like Hollow Bastion.

So I doubt there'll ever be worlds like Midgar or Balamb -- esp since it wouldn't make any sense anymore in-canon, as characters like Leon and Aerith live elsewhere and have different backstories here. And even more unlikely now that Nomura's omitted FF characters from base KH3 and gone on record saying he never saw the series as a FF crossover.

Holy_Cloud105 posted...

Why wouldnt they? Disney seems to pretty much hate the fact that KH original characters run around with their Disney originals considering the stuff we know they did in KH3. Like they made SE ensure SDG never interacted with Elsa in Frozen and made sure the Toy Story world had nothing to do with the series. Which made the Toy Story world one of the better ones.

Because incorporating Final Fantasy worlds would take away from making Disney worlds. Isn't one of the biggest criticisms of KH3 that it was almost all Disney worlds? You think Disney wants fewer Disney worlds in their game?

Rharyx211 posted...

Nomura said back in 2002 that there would never be Final Fantasy worlds, since their counterparts all live in either Disney worlds or original worlds like Hollow Bastion.

So I doubt there'll ever be worlds like Midgar or Balamb -- esp since it wouldn't make any sense anymore in-canon, as characters like Leon and Aerith live elsewhere and have different backstories here. And even more unlikely now that Nomura's omitted FF characters from base KH3 and gone on record saying he never saw the series as a FF crossover.

Respectfully at this point I'd argue the fans know better than Nomura. As much as I like Nomura, he's made the series into a hell of a mess to try and understand. To the point where you won't know what the hell is going on if you go straight from Kingdom Hearts 2 into Kingdom Hearts 3.

Ivany2008 posted...

Respectfully at this point I'd argue the fans know better than Nomura.

If a fan ever thought the series was a crossover between Disney and Final Fantasy rather than a Disney game with Final Fantasy cameos, they definitely don't know better. That's a serious misunderstanding of what the series has been since KH1.

Ivany2008 posted...

To the point where you won't know what the hell is going on if you go straight from Kingdom Hearts 2 into Kingdom Hearts 3.

Who would've guessed skipping several games and more than a decade's worth of lore would leave you confused? Almost like someone isn't really a fan if they're actively disinterested in playing most of the series.

IcyWind14 posted...

Because incorporating Final Fantasy worlds would take away from making Disney worlds. Isn't one of the biggest criticisms of KH3 that it was almost all Disney worlds? You think Disney wants fewer Disney worlds in their game?

Considering Disney did as much as possible to make sure the KH characters didnt interact with the Disney characters in 3, yes. Disney also doesnt give two shits about the IP.

IcyWind14 posted...

If a fan ever thought the series was a crossover between Disney and Final Fantasy rather than a Disney game with Final Fantasy cameos, they definitely don't know better. That's a serious misunderstanding of what the series has been since KH1.

Who would've guessed skipping several games and more than a decade's worth of lore would leave you confused? Almost like someone isn't really a fan if they're actively disinterested in playing most of the series.

Who would have thought their shitty naming schemes would leave people confused. Even if you are a fan of the series, its difficult to follow which one follows which if your trying to play them in some sort of order. They somewhat made the stories easier by adding 1.5 and 2.5/8, but even then that doesn't cover everything. You still have to play 358/2 to get the full story, and while I loved that game, I still have trouble figuring out the story with Aqua/Ventas and the like.

And while Final Fantasy characters certainly weren't the main drawing point of the series, it was a minor one. Disney forced the game into a position where its solely focused on them. So we got World of Final Fantasy in response to that. Hopefully we get a World of Final Fantasy 2 in the future.

Holy_Cloud105 posted...

Considering Disney did as much as possible to make sure the KH characters didnt interact with the Disney characters in 3, yes. Disney also doesnt give two shits about the IP.

To be fair, at least in the case of Phil from Hercules, the Japanese voice actor passed away, and in Japan when that happens they retire the character. But he was already in the game so they just took out his voice lines, ergo why Danny Devito didn't do any lines.

Ivany2008 posted...

Who would have thought their shitty naming schemes would leave people confused. Even if you are a fan of the series, its difficult to follow which one follows which if your trying to play them in some sort of order. They somewhat made the stories easier by adding 1.5 and 2.5/8, but even then that doesn't cover everything. You still have to play 358/2 to get the full story, and while I loved that game, I still have trouble figuring out the story with Aqua/Ventas and the like.

To be fair 358 and ReCoded not being in the comps as full games was because it'd be unnecessary effort in a time where Square was already struggling a lot with the games in development
(also Aqua/Ventus/Terra's game is BBS, which was on the collections, 358 is the Roxas prequel)

They even have All In One nowadays to have the 1.5,2.5,2.8 collections and 3 in one package

3 was so ass it ruined the series for me. Years and years of build up for a straight garbage conclusion. A bunch of filler for 25 hours followed by 3-5 hours of hastily wrapping up a checklist of various plot threads. The combat feel was, unfortunately, not the return to form I hoped for.

IcyWind14 posted...

If a fan ever thought the series was a crossover between Disney and Final Fantasy rather than a Disney game with Final Fantasy cameos

I mean, that distinction is pretty nebulous. It being a "weird Disney/FF crossover game" is pretty much what it was known as by a general audience back when the series was first coming out.

It's only in recent memory (as in, around when KH3 was coming out) that I noticed a shift in people trying to say the contrary. But that's mainly due to the FF cameos dwindling greatly over the years since KH2.

Holy_Cloud105 posted...

Considering Disney did as much as possible to make sure the KH characters didnt interact with the Disney characters in 3, yes. Disney also doesnt give two shits about the IP.

KH3 marked the first time in the series that Disney staff from the films were directly consulted and contributed on material for the Disney worlds. Not the actions of a company not caring about the IP. Also, aside from Frozen, the game didn't really keep the KH cast from interacting with Disney characters. To the contrary, KH3 gave us the most interactions between Disney and KH casts we've had in a long time. Remember Woody roasting Young Xehanort? Sulley yeeting Vanitas through a door? The entirety of Big Hero 6 confronting Dark Riku only for him to summon Baymax's old body? The reunion between Luxord and Jack Sparrow? There was a ton of interaction.

Ivany2008 posted...

Who would have thought their shitty naming schemes would leave people confused.

Because no series has ever used subtitles instead of numbers before KH. It was truly new ground that left everyone confused. The idea of play new game after old game just went out the window.

Ivany2008 posted...

Even if you are a fan of the series, its difficult to follow which one follows which if your trying to play them in some sort of order

For a newcomer, you play them in the order they released, which isn't confusing at all. You can literally look up a list of the release dates. And anyone who has played the games before is gonna have an understanding of the timeline order if they want to revisit the series that way because none of the games are ambiguous in when they take place.

Ivany2008 posted...

You still have to play 358/2 to get the full story, and while I loved that game, I still have trouble figuring out the story with Aqua/Ventas and the like.

Yeah, 358/2 Days does do a pretty poor job explaining the story of those two characters who aren't even in it (I mean Ven kinda is, but not really). Birth By Sleep, which does have them in it, does a much better job.

Rharyx211 posted...

I mean, that distinction is pretty nebulous.

It's the difference between Final Fantasy being any sort of focus in the game and just being used as a marketable way to avoid making original characters.

I did always think the FF influence was overblown by fans. The way they're treated, they could be original KH characters with no change. The only thing that really has any kind of FF depth is Cloud and Sephiroth and even that's completely different from their actual characters and histories.

Like I only played FF7 a few years ago. All the information I had from the game was from KH. So I thought Cloud was this brooding dude and Sephiroth was like his evil shadow doppleganger or something because that is very much what KH portrays them to be. But Cloud is actually a huge fucking dork and Sephiroth is basically just a guy that burned his village down.

I never understood the cringe reaction of "The Final Fantasy characters never were plot relevant so why u mad bro?"

Maybe because not everything is about plot? It's about the concept of the franchise that drew a lot of people in who would otherwise not have played a silly Disney game? It's about the feel that sort of thing brings with it? Moogles aren't relevant in most FF games, but it would still be sad to see them removed in a grimdark buttass remake of FF9 or whichever game, or a sequel to a game that had them prominently feature in all their plot irrelevancy.

Yeah, watch any streamer experience the KH games for the first time, and watch their reactions to the FF characters. They are typically losing their shit. Because that stuff is cool as hell.

It's not about plot. It's about the fact that the FF guys showing up is great, and fun, and people love it. Removing them removes charm from the game as a whole.

Rharyx211 posted...

Yeah, watch any streamer experience the KH games for the first time, and watch their reactions to the FF characters. They are typically losing their shit. Because that stuff is cool as hell.

It's not about plot. It's about the fact that the FF guys showing up is great, and fun, and people love it. Removing them removes charm from the game as a whole.

By the same metric watch any streamer experience the KH games for the first time and see how often they love the later games and aren't bothered by the absence of the FF characters. A perfect showing that maybe the series really doesn't need them anymore.

IcyWind14 posted...

By the same metric watch any streamer experience the KH games for the first time and see how often they love the later games and aren't bothered by the absence of the FF characters. A perfect showing that maybe the series really doesn't need them anymore.

If you don't want them in, that's fine. Others, like myself, like the small cameos they have as it adds a bit of flavour to boring in-between bits. We have so many bloody Disney games, its nice to get a game that smashes up the 2 companies.

IcyWind14 posted...

By the same metric watch any streamer experience the KH games for the first time and see how often they love the later games and aren't bothered by the absence of the FF characters. A perfect showing that maybe the series really doesn't need them anymore.

You don't need FF characters for the other parts to be good, but when there are FF characters, people love it.

"Doesn't need them anymore" is missing the point. Yeah, we don't "need" them. But they make it better, so they shouldn't remove them. They're a core element of what made the franchise work. And they're a prolific element that the franchise is known for.

The FF characters aren't needed and Nomura himself said they were just there as a crutch back when KH didn't have much of its own cast yet...... That being said they're still fun to have and the TWEWY cameo had me really happy as well, so still hoping we get to have some appearances here and there

IcyWind14 posted...

Almost like someone isn't really a fan if they're actively disinterested in playing most of the series.

This is like some middle school console wars logic, lol.

Ivany2008 posted...

We have so many bloody Disney games

You really gonna make this argument to say we need more Final Fantasy? Really?

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

You really gonna make this argument to say we need more Final Fantasy? Really?

That wasn't the point I was making. I was saying that the amount of Disney games far outweigh the amount of Final Fantasy games and it isn't even close, and that having a game that has just a small amount of cameo appearances by Square characters added charm to the KH series, and made it unique. But to your point YES I do think we need more Final Fantasy games. Just not recent Final Fantasy style games.

We need more games in the style of Octopath Traveller/Early Final Fantasy games. Because at least to me, 12 and onward aren't true Final Fantasy games. They have abandoned literally every single aspect that made them great in the first place in hopes of being Monster May Cry: Zero Gone. Those games are about as Final Fantasy as Hyrule Warriors is for Zelda. That isn't saying they are all bad games (though being honest, most of them sucked since 10-2), it just doesn't feel like a traditional Final Fantasy game, which I personally preferred. And now they are in a market that is literally flooded with clones and knockoff games so there is no chance for them to feel special even if they end up being good games.

You know what isn't flooding the market? AAA Turn-Based RPGs. I'm not saying they need to return to that style permanently, but having a single turn-based Final Fantasy game will put them back in the spotlight instead of being yet another in the crowd.

Ivynn posted...

Yeah, the FF cameos were marketed heavily, pretty sure there was some who probably bought it just for them.

Yep, thats me.

While I thought traveling through disney worlds in a action rpg was a neat enough idea the main draw for then 19 year old final fantasy superfan me in 2002 was oh shit lookit cloud is in this game and squall is in this game and aeris is here (wait-a-minute......why is she called aerith? lol what dumbasses they screwed her name up) lookit yuffie holy crap its sephiroth ooooo their 3D models.

*got to remember in 2002 we were coming straight off the PS1 era and so outside of CGI shots PS1 in-game model cloud and PS1 squall was all we had to go off of with how they looked (there was also that ehrgiez game that almost everyone bought purely because FF7 characters were in it). It was awesome seeing these characters with better PS2 graphics for the time period.*

Kingdom Hearts 3 not having Final Fantasy characters (until the DLC) was a big mistake. Period. Even if they were always intended as a clutch, they are now baked into the story's DNA and while you could argue they aren't all that relevant to the story, a lot of the most memorable bits come from FF characters and their interactions with KH and/or Disney characters.

I get not liking FF being in Kingdom Hearts but acting like most people don't want them in is just silly.

Yeah they're not a big part, but hearing Donald Duck go "SORA, IT'S SEPHIROTH" is just pure sauce

Plus they never finished the KH Cloud/Sephiroth plotline