Current Events > The Last Jedi had good ideas *SPOILERS*

(+) Yeah! (+)

I liked when they were saying Rey actually wasn't from some special Jedi bloodline or et cetera. Something like "You're nothing. You come from nothing." Lots of media and SW especially has a problem with overly connecting everyone and everything. It was refreshing even though I really disliked most of everything else in the movie. Of course, they ended up screwing that part up too in the next one.

I imagine most totalitarians and such were man children in some fashion.

I liked when they were saying Rey actually wasn't from some special Jedi bloodline or et cetera. Something like "You're nothing. You come from nothing." Lots of media and SW especially has a problem with overly connecting everyone and everything. It was refreshing even though I really disliked most of everything else in the movie. Of course, they ended up screwing that part up too in the next one.

Strong disagree. Episodes 1-9 were supposed to be about the Skywalkers. Not a nobody who came from nothing. Tell that story elsewhere.

There was nothing novel about that idea. SW never implied the Jedi had to be anyone special. But this saga was about a special family. Trying to make Rey a nobody was one of the worst things about TLJ, except maybe broom kid.

I'm still stunned to this day that after paying billions for the franchise and a new trilogy, they never actually planned out a story to tell over said trilogy. They could literally do almost whatever they wanted, the universe was wide open. They could have adapted any number of EU works or written an entirely original plot. If it was set outside of the timeline, the universe was large enough that you wouldn't even have to worry about continuity.

Instead, we got a retread of episode 4, a reaction that the previous movie was too much of a retread, and a reaction that the previous movie was too different. They somehow made the prequels look like masterpieces in comparison.

I imagine most totalitarians and such were man children in some fashion.

I liked when they were saying Rey actually wasn't from some special Jedi bloodline or et cetera. Something like "You're nothing. You come from nothing." Lots of media and SW especially has a problem with overly connecting everyone and everything. It was refreshing even though I really disliked most of everything else in the movie. Of course, they ended up screwing that part up too in the next one.

I'm still stunned to this day that after paying billions for the franchise and a new trilogy, they never actually planned out a story to tell over said trilogy. They could literally do almost whatever they wanted, the universe was wide open. They could have adapted any number of EU works or written an entirely original plot. If it was set outside of the timeline, the universe was large enough that you wouldn't even have to worry about continuity.

Instead, we got a retread of episode 4, a reaction that the previous movie was too much of a retread, and a reaction that the previous movie was too different. They somehow made the prequels look like masterpieces in comparison.

This could have worked in the right series or movie. But nobody as smart, powerful and talented as Rey can characterize as a nobody under any circumstances.

And even if she was the above pretty much invalidates it. Defeating the entire purpose of it.

Why couldn't there be another powerful Jedi character that's not related to the Skywalkers/Palpatine/other established characters though?

I imagine most totalitarians and such were man children in some fashion.

I liked when they were saying Rey actually wasn't from some special Jedi bloodline or et cetera. Something like "You're nothing. You come from nothing." Lots of media and SW especially has a problem with overly connecting everyone and everything. It was refreshing even though I really disliked most of everything else in the movie. Of course, they ended up screwing that part up too in the next one.

I think it would have set up a meaningful difference between him and Rey with him coming from an important family of powerful force users if she didn't

Plus there were powerful Jedi before the Skywalkers and Palpatine. Why couldn't another great Jedi naturally arise again?

Plus it's not like the Skywalkers and Palpatine themselves came from any strong lineage of force users.

Okay, Anakin himself is basically Force Jesus but his mother was just a slave woman. The Skywalker name wasn't anything remarkable until Anakin. Palpatine just straight up came from a family of regular people.

Even if you go down the Skywalker line with Luke, in the Original Trilogy, it's not like he's presented as being that much more exceptional than some of the other Jedi we've seen in the Prequels. I think a lot of the idea of Luke being some ubermensch Jedi came from the EU

i dunno. i cant really remember coming out of it and having liked anything about it. i saw it at midnight release (star wars was the only property i was still seeing midnight releases for) and walked out of just blank. something about the vibe felt off pretty much start to finish (for me)

and now i dont really like or am interested in star wars. i went in at maximum excitement and walked out a zombie

If they had to make Rey a "somebody", I think it would have been a little better if it had been revealed that she had been created similar to how Anakin was. Anakin was created because Plagueis had been manipulating the Force to try and create life. Might have made for an interesting scene where Palpatine, or Snoke if they had kept him around, tells Rey she only exists because of him.

I think it had some decent ideas just horrible execution. Things like Rey being nobody was cool. Kylo managing to sneak a kill on Snoke was cool. But still I wanted to know who Snoke was before he was discarded. After hes gone theres no good villain left because while I like Kylo dude was far from intimidating.

and now i dont really like or am interested in star wars. i went in at maximum excitement and walked out a zombie

The new trilogy didn't necessarily have to be about the Skywalker family. Sure, they're still around and are important, but that didn't mean Rey had to be one. I'm more so against the idea because it's kind of a tired trope at this point. They already did the secret family member thing in the OT twice and as I said earlier, SW has a problem with overly connecting everything like Anakin making C3PO and things like that.

I think Kylo would have made for an effective, yet very different villain. I don't think he necessarily needed to be intimidating, just unhinged and erratic. Like a guy who will blow up at the slightest provocation in the most destructive way possible.

"Star Wars" doesn't have that problem. The mainline movies do. Because the mainline, numbered movies are a giant, connected narrative about a particular family and the friends/allies of that family.

There are entire friggin ENCYCLOPEDIAS of stories about "nobody" characters in Star Wars. This idea that Star Wars is somehow obsessed with the idea that "only a Skywalker can be the hero" is ridiculous. We have a solid dozen TV series, multiple movies, and hundreds of books about non-skywalker heroes, many of whom accomplish things just as grand, if not greater, than the Skywalkers. There's nothing wrong with saying "the mainline numbered saga should be about the Skywalkers."

It certainly doesn't help matters that Kylo Ren was clearly, and very obviously, a much better choice for protagonist. He was the character with the most interesting arc, he was the one with the most growth, he was the one with a clear character motivation, with the most obstacles to overcome, and his dynamic of "inherently good person trying to deny their better nature to live up to a dark legacy" is an angle for a protagonist that's pretty unique for the franchise. And he was a Skywalker. Disney just didn't have it in them to make the obviously-more-interesting protagonist the protagonist.

There's nothing wrong with saying "the mainline numbered saga should be about the Skywalkers."

He was definitely unhinged and erratic but he got bested by a Rey who had just picked up a light-saber. I just wouldn't really care much.

Kylo Ren as the protagonist is basically just Luke though.

I like the idea of Kylo Ren being the guy who learned the wrong lessons from his grandpa's demise and decided to try and do what Vader didn't.

So we can't ever have a future mainline movie that isn't about this family line? That's pretty stifling, yeah? Don't think that's a great move to foster creativity (especially when, apparently, this was an area the sequel trilogy was already struggling, The Last Jedi aside).

Even if you go down the Skywalker line with Luke, in the Original Trilogy, it's not like he's presented as being that much more exceptional than some of the other Jedi we've seen in the Prequels. I think a lot of the idea of Luke being some ubermensch Jedi came from the EU

Except he's not in any way shape or form like Luke.

I didn't say to make him the hero. I don't want him doing anything different. I'm saying he should be the protagonist. The main character. There's a difference.

Except he's not in any way shape or form like Luke.

I didn't say to make him the hero. I don't want him doing anything different. I'm saying he should be the protagonist. The main character. There's a difference.

And I feel like Last Jedi MADE Kylo Ren an interesting character and gave him nuance and explored him too! Last Jedi is great in a large part due to the character examination of Kylo Ren and his desperate need to have someone basically join him. After all the lost connections in his life and his bravado about destroying the past, taking control, all of it? He is still largely a scared child who desperately wants an ally to sit beside him as an equal. He wanted that so much in Rey.

I always read the OT as Luke being a Jedi instead of a particularly powerful Jedi. Like, if Obi-Wan hadn't deliberately thrown his fight with Vader, and hadn't been old as hell, he would have done just as well on account of being a Jedi.

It's interesting that the Force feats in the OT are almost more like utility functions than overpowered combat abilities. Force persuade. Extrasensory perception. Retrieving things from a distance. Levitation. Vader's Force wind thingy. Long distance communication. That giant flip Luke does off of the plank. Force Choke, Force Lightning and whatever Luke did to the guards (droids? I don't remember: at the entrance of Jabba's Palace) are the only explicit offensive/combat abilities that come to mind.

Luke generally uses the Force to, like, grab a rock to then throw, or whatever, lol.

And yet he still wasn't the focal character. Yes, they explored him. But the main character is still this detached nobody outsider shoehorning her way in on juicy family drama that's been the series driving factor from the word "go." And she came packing with a far less interesting character arc and motivation to go along with it.

It depends on your definition of a mainline movie. Does it have to have the word "Episode" in it to count?

Because I can guarantee you, there will be another saga in the future, and I can day with 90% certainty it won't be called "Episode 10." But it will be the new mainline.

The biggest mistake of Rey's story was making it about who her parents were in the first place. If people liked the revelation that her parents were nobodies, many of their reasons could have been accomplished better if they were never brought up in the subject at all.

But there was still the issue of how much Rey messed with the power scaling for those who follow only the movies. That need for an explanation, and waiting for it, was one of the reasons why people were very critical of the rest of her story.

Rey being a nobody would be no different than Ahsoka or Caleb/Kanan or any of the other powerful Jedi in the franchise. We already had that story.

She didnt need to be a Palpatine, but her being one worked just fine. The generations were off, though; she should have been a great-grandchild descended from one of Senator Palpatines (allegedly canon) children.

The clone story was unnecessary but not entirely out of left field. But the big bad should have been Plagueis (and technically still could be). Who card if its too predictable or whatever? The entire franchise started as a space opera version of Joseph Campbells hero trope. Its supposed to be predictable.

If Ep 9 had revealed that Plagueis was still alive, that would have preserved Anakins redemption arc while emphasizing that Palpatines fatal flaw was his hubris. His certainty that he had defeated the one who had defeated death was a key part of his character, and the story never really went anywhere with it.

Also, in a franchise that has a canon World Between the Worlds, there were other avenues besides random clone Palpatine or whatever they did.

The biggest mistake of Rey's story was making it about who her parents were in the first place. If people liked the revelation that her parents were nobodies, many of their reasons could have been accomplished better if they were never brought up in the subject at all.

But there was still the issue of how much Rey messed with the power scaling for those who follow only the movies. That need for an explanation, and waiting for it, was one of the reasons why people were very critical of the rest of her story.