Current Events > The Last Jedi had good ideas *SPOILERS*

(+) Yeah! (+)

The Last Jedi is an Empire Strikes Back What If movie.

What if the escape to hyperspace at the start didn't work?
What if Luke accepted Vader's offer to overthrow the Emperor?

But otherwise let's keep as much of Empire as possible: the Imperial walkers attack, Yoda being reluctant to train the new Jedi, the evil cave, the Jedi recruit getting Force message that friends are in danger, Lando's betrayal, Cloud City being a neutral location but we might have to move it to the ground because a second cloud city would be too on the nose. Let's just kill Yoda in this movie so the next movie has more freedom and doesn't have to circle back again like in Return of the Jedi.

bfslick50 posted...

The Last Jedi is an Empire Strikes Back What If movie.

What if the escape to hyperspace at the start didn't work?
What if Luke accepted Vader's offer to overthrow the Emperor?

But otherwise let's keep as much of Empire as possible: the Imperial walkers attack, Yoda being reluctant to train the new Jedi,

Youre listing off things that are deliberately present in each trilogy in some form or another lmao

Sariana21 posted...

Im guessing there was some subtext that she was built that way, or at least her clone father was.

Many theorized that she had prior training that she forgot about.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Tbh, I didn't get the impression that Rey was that powerful in the first two movies to begin with.

I think she's someone who has a natural talent in using the Force and is able to grasp things quickly, but her actual feats aren't that impressive. It's not like she's pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky or something.

You don't consider what she did at the end of The Last Jedi to be that powerful? For a lot of movie-only watchers, Anakin using Jedi reflexes in a podrace was considered a high feat of natural talent.

Toonstrack posted...

Youre listing off things that are deliberately present in each trilogy in some form or another lmao

My memory may be rusty, which prequel Sith apprentice made an offer to a Jedi to join the darkside and help them in overthrowing Palpatine?

Raycon posted...

Well, to be candid, I do not agree with that line of thinking. Such a restriction does not exist anywhere in the established media, to date. This is, at best, an appeal to tradition.

No, it's an appeal to narrative cohesion.

If the last 3 chapters of The Odyssey suddenly pivoted to being Jason and the Argonauts, that would be ludicrous. Because the Odyssey is a long saga about Odysseus' crew, amd not "anybody can go on swashbuckling Greek adventures at sea."

bfslick50 posted...

The Last Jedi is an Empire Strikes Back What If movie.

What if the escape to hyperspace at the start didn't work?
What if Luke accepted Vader's offer to overthrow the Emperor?

But otherwise let's keep as much of Empire as possible: the Imperial walkers attack, Yoda being reluctant to train the new Jedi, the evil cave, the Jedi recruit getting Force message that friends are in danger, Lando's betrayal, Cloud City being a neutral location but we might have to move it to the ground because a second cloud city would be too on the nose. Let's just kill Yoda in this movie so the next movie has more freedom and doesn't have to circle back again like in Return of the Jedi.

I feel like these are reductive and superficial similarities. Some of the basic elements are the same, but the context is completely different.

Yoda doesn't want to train Luke because Luke is hotheaded and reckless. Luke doesn't want to train Rey because he doesn't think there should be any more Jedi. The dark cave in ESB has Luke confront his dark-side while foreshadowing the idea that he may end up becoming like his father. The dark cave in TLJ is about Rey trying to solve the mystery of her past and being shown that her past doesn't matter. Cloud City was a "neutral" city that had secretly sold out out to the Empire for their own safety; Canto Bight was an actually neutral, hedonistic place that was profiting off of the war by selling to both sides.

SAlYAN posted...

No, it's an appeal to narrative cohesion.

If the last 3 chapters of The Odyssey suddenly pivoted to being Jason and the Argonauts, that would be ludicrous. Because the Odyssey is a long saga about Odysseus' crew, amd not "anybody can go on swashbuckling Greek adventures at sea."

But if Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey as the first 2 entries of a trilogy, the third installment would have more freedom to explore new areas.

SAlYAN posted...

No, it's an appeal to narrative cohesion.

If the last 3 chapters of The Odyssey suddenly pivoted to being Jason and the Argonauts, that would be ludicrous. Because the Odyssey is a long saga about Odysseus' crew, amd not "anybody can go on swashbuckling Greek adventures at sea."

This is a great example. Another one is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, a great book that nearly falls apart at the end when it starts to become The (Mis)Adventures of Tom Sawyer.

bfslick50 posted...

But if Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey as the first 2 entries of a trilogy, the third installment would have more freedom to explore new areas.

Yes, and it would still have to tie back to being about a person/people involved in the Trojan war. Because that's what the saga would be about: the heroes of the Trojan War.

Which is why when Virgil did effectively this with the Aeneid, it's still about a surviving Trojan. Not about a random Spartan who runs in and tries to take charge of the refugees.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

I feel like these are reductive and superficial similarities. Some of the basic elements are the same, but the context is completely different.

Yoda doesn't want to train Luke because Luke is hotheaded and reckless. Luke doesn't want to train Rey because he doesn't think there should be any more Jedi. The dark cave in ESB has Luke confront his dark-side while foreshadowing the idea that he may end up becoming like his father. The dark cave in TLJ is about Rey trying to solve the mystery of her past and being shown that her past doesn't matter. Cloud City was a "neutral" city that had secretly sold out out to the Empire for their own safety; Canto Bight was an actually neutral, hedonistic place that was profiting off of the war by selling to both sides.

The dark cave in TLJ reveals to Luke that he should have the same fears that Yoda did in training him. Yoda feared Luke wouldn't be able to stay on the light side of the force and Rey's mind immediately went there with a speed that alarmed Luke.

Canto Bight selling arms to both sides is window dressing that isn't plot relevant. It's a narrative break from the war, which is a really weird thing to have in TLJ as they are experiencing a time crunch urgency not there in Empire's Cloud City scenes. Finn loses all urgency while on Canto Bight and it feels like it's in there to give echoes of Cloud City.

SAlYAN posted...

Yes, and it would still have to tie back to being about a person/people involved in the Trojan war. Because that's what the saga would be about: the heroes of the Trojan War.

Which is why when Virgil did effectively this with the Aeneid, it's still about a surviving Trojan. Not about a random Spartan who runs in and tries to take charge of the refugees.

I think this is an unfair criticism because the Sequel Trilogy was all about having the old heroes pass the torch to new ones.

Plus, just look at Phantom Menace. Anakin is a character in the movie, sure, but he doesn't even make an appearance in it until like 30-40 minutes into it. He's basically a side character. The "real" main characters are Obi-Wan, a supporting character from the original trilogy and Qui-Gon, some guy we've never heard of before.

bfslick50 posted...

The dark cave in TLJ reveals to Luke that he should have the same fears that Yoda did in training him. Yoda feared Luke wouldn't be able to stay on the light side of the force and Rey's mind immediately went there with a speed that alarmed Luke.

Canto Bight selling arms to both sides is window dressing that isn't plot relevant. It's a narrative break from the war, which is a really weird thing to have in TLJ as they are experiencing a time crunch urgency not there in Empire's Cloud City scenes. Finn loses all urgency while on Canto Bight and it feels like it's in there to give echoes of Cloud City.

But again, these similarities are purely superficial. The actual purpose of those scenes is entirely different. Luke's is a cautionary tale; Rey's is about getting her to let go of her obsession with the past.

Canto Bight and Cloud City aren't even remotely similar. Even the idea of them being "neutral" planets isn't fully true; by the time the heroes get to Cloud City, it's already controlled by the Empire. Cloud City is presented as a peaceful and prosperous place while Canto Bight is a hedonistic playground taken over by criminals.

Even the in-universe story reasons for the heroes going there are completely different. The Millennium Falcon crew is on the run from the Empire and looking for a safe place to rest, resupply and fix their ship, while Finn and Rose are on a mission to find a hacker.

SAlYAN posted...

No, it's an appeal to narrative cohesion.

If the last 3 chapters of The Odyssey suddenly pivoted to being Jason and the Argonauts, that would be ludicrous. Because the Odyssey is a long saga about Odysseus' crew, amd not "anybody can go on swashbuckling Greek adventures at sea."

The issue with this comparison is that episodes 4-6 were the finale of the story. Episodes 7-9 were starting a new story, mostly because Jedi was a pretty conclusive finale and there wasn't room to expand on that story.

Rey's lineage doesn't really change anything, mostly because the writers didn't do anything with it. The new trio being totally unconnected to previous characters had as much impact as their hair colours. Kylo Ren being who he was could have been interesting, but again they didn't really do much with his lineage. Palpatine somehow coming back was awful though. He was basically the one character in the universe who should not have been the villain. Even Snoke would have been better. Given what TLJ gave us, I really wanted to stick with Ren.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

I think this is an unfair criticism because the Sequel Trilogy was all about having the old heroes pass the torch to new ones.

Plus, just look at Phantom Menace. Anakin is a character in the movie, sure, but he doesn't even make an appearance in it until like 30-40 minutes into it. He's basically a side character. The "real" main characters are Obi-Wan, a supporting character from the original trilogy and Qui-Gon, some guy we've never heard of before.

And yet as far as the overall narrative is concerned, in the context of the entire trilogy AND 1-6, episode 1 is still about him. It gets this primary character into play, immediately establishes his gravity/importance, and the symbolism and metatext of the Duel of Fates, which is the focus point of the climax, is that it's dueling over Anakin's fate.

It's not about any individual piece, it's about how they all connect to each other. Episodes 1-3 are about a Skywalker. 4-6 are about a Skywalker, technically two skywalkers. 1-6 are about the rise, fall, and redemption of a Skywalker. 1-3 set up a Skywalker as an ideal hero who fails, 4-6 sets up the son as the dramatic foil who succeeds in all the ways his father failed. The father's lobe for Padme drives the OT, while Luke's echoing of Padme's best qualities is what enables the redemption in 6. Episode 1 has Shmi tell Anakin "you can't stop the change, any more than you can stop yhe sun's from setting." We then have 5 movies of Anakin trying desperately to control everything he possibly can, to "stop the change," only to finally relinquish that power and control in the end, sacrificing himself for his son.

All the business with the Empire, the Republic, the Rebellion, and even the Jedi is window dressing. The Skywalkers, their internal struggles, the family dynamics, they are the beating heart of that saga. It's what ties literally everything that happens in that saga together.

It's why Kylo Ren would make for a much more interesting protagonist. He echoes all of those struggles in a unique way. From his perspective on his destiny, to his rejection of the familial connections; he idolized the grandfather without really understanding who thar grandfather actually was. His arc is a lot more in keeping with what made the story work, still functions as a hand-off, and doesn't have the jarring "psych! Now for something completely different" whiplash of suddenly out of nowhere handing the reigns to someone totally unrelated in the final chapter.

It's why I think a far more compelling end to Rise of Skywalker should have had Kylo NOT bring Rey back to life. This "power to control death" is a prime pain point throughout the entire saga. It drives Palpatine, it cripples Anakin, and it speaks to the struggle that Anakin/Vader had with thinking they needing to control everything to be happy and help people. Have Kylo Ren have the power, and have Anakin's force ghost finally reveal himself to his fanboy grandson, and let them have a real heart-to-heart on exactly why Kylo needs to just let Rey rest. End Kylo's arc by having him not chase the thing that made his idol fail. Force him to own up to everything he did, force him to actually live his redemption, amd leave the fate of the Jedi in his hands. The ACTUAL "Rise of Skywalker." Cohesivez keeps to the themes, and preserves the heart of what made the story what it was. It connects end-to-end.

Right now we have 6 movies of a saga with really cohesive focus on the drama and dynamics of one family, and 3 movies of anticlimactic rug-pull. Forgive me for thinking that 9 movies with that focus would make for a much more cohesive story than one with arbitrary curveballs.

If you don't want your stories to be connected, don't connect them. The saga, up to that point was about the Skywalkers. It does not serve it well to make it suddenly not about the skywalkers. Just like it didn't serve Book of Boba Fett well to make it suddenly The Mandalorian Season 2.5 (among the myriad other problems that show had, admittedly). And while Andor is arguably better than most if not all mainline Star Wars movies, it still shouldn't be Star Wars Episode 3.8, even if Vader is still in Rogue One.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Plus it's not like the Skywalkers and Palpatine themselves came from any strong lineage of force users.

They didnt need to because the force in SW has a will and through its power chooses, creates and manipulates events, probability, and individuals to accomplish its wants or needs.

So no, Reys abilitys werent by happen chance. Shes literally the chosen one of the sequel trilogy. Like Anakin was his and Luke the same.

Calling her a nobody is just a lazy creative gimmick to try and connect audiences to a character. While ignoring all its nuances for the convenience of the plot.

Prismsblade posted...

So no, Reys abilitys werent by happen chance. Shes literally the chosen one of the sequel trilogy. Like Anakin was his and Luke the same.

Not helped by Luke literally NOT being the chosen one. Anakin was still the chosen one of the OT. Luke was basically there to offer Vader a second chance, by being basically "padme but a jedi."

That's the problem. The first two trilogies DONT stand alone; we only group them because of when they were made, and perceived quality differences. They were one story. And the sequel trilogy was trying to be the final part of that one story.

Last Jedi is fine until it literally stops itself dead with the low speed starship chase and gambling planet.

Starks posted...

Last Jedi is fine until it literally stops itself dead with the low speed starship chase and gambling planet.

That gives us about 20 minutes into the runtime of "fine."

I'm not a starwars fan but I did enjoy the last jedi more than the other ST films. With that said I agree with the fanbase criticism of that film it has done more damage than good to the franchise.

But let's be honest disney hasn't done anything worth a damn with the franchise since they purchased it.

Gosh, I wish Disney had had the stones to have Rey and Kylo switch roles. Give us a redemption arc ending with Ben returning to the light and being the protagonist for ep 9 while Rey actually turns to the dark side and becomes the episode 9 villain. It would have been a really unique twist on the classic Star Wars struggle with corruption and redemption.

SAlYAN posted...

That gives us about 20 minutes into the runtime of "fine."

Yes, that is correct

SAlYAN posted...

Yes, and it would still have to tie back to being about a person/people involved in the Trojan war. Because that's what the saga would be about: the heroes of the Trojan War.

Which is why when Virgil did effectively this with the Aeneid, it's still about a surviving Trojan. Not about a random Spartan who runs in and tries to take charge of the refugees.

The ST is a new trilogy and features a new main cast. That doesnt violate narrative cohesion because it is a new story that takes place as a part of a larger story, each section of which has its own centralized cast.

We knew this movie was going to gave a new cast before TFA even came out.

SAlYAN posted...

Not helped by Luke literally NOT being the chosen one. Anakin was still the chosen one of the OT. Luke was basically there to offer Vader a second chance, by being basically "padme but a jedi."

The chosen one wasn't a thing in the OT, but Luke is ostensibly a "chosen one" in that narrative as he's chosen to be the one perks who can stop Vader.

Lucas introduced the new concept of a chosen one with the PT but it's hokey of course.

Rey is also chosen, and so is fine, by the force. We are *told* there has been an awakening in the force. She may not he THE chosen one but she was also chosen

marthsheretoo posted...

Gosh, I wish Disney had had the stones to have Rey and Kylo switch roles. Give us a redemption arc ending with Ben returning to the light and being the protagonist for ep 9 while Rey actually turns to the dark side and becomes the episode 9 villain. It would have been a really unique twist on the classic Star Wars struggle with corruption and redemption.

Well, I think it's an interesting idea but the roles would be tricky to work out. Like, do we now have a light side-ruled First Order trying to chase down this one Sith? Or does Rey somehow become in charge of the First Order? Lol.

The most interesting thing about the first movie was Finn's story.

He escapes the first order and grows throughout the movie until the end where he bravely fights against someone stronger than him.

And him and Poe's relationship was great and instead of being further developed they gave both of them lame side plots.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

But again, these similarities are purely superficial. The actual purpose of those scenes is entirely different. Luke's is a cautionary tale; Rey's is about getting her to let go of her obsession with the past.

Canto Bight and Cloud City aren't even remotely similar. Even the idea of them being "neutral" planets isn't fully true; by the time the heroes get to Cloud City, it's already controlled by the Empire. Cloud City is presented as a peaceful and prosperous place while Canto Bight is a hedonistic playground taken over by criminals.

Even the in-universe story reasons for the heroes going there are completely different. The Millennium Falcon crew is on the run from the Empire and looking for a safe place to rest, resupply and fix their ship, while Finn and Rose are on a mission to find a hacker.

The purpose of both dark caves is to show the protagonist Jedi's susceptibility to the dark side, so in the coming battle with their dark side foe there is a chance that battle could lead to their downfall and in fact during that battle they get a direct offer to stop fighting and join the dark side. Rey wondering about her past is a different window dressing and it is not that different since Luke's past parentage is the only reason that offer makes sense.

White collar criminals were running both places. Cloud City was literally a luxury resort; they had casinos and hedonistic rich people. They have different in-universe explanations for why they were peaceful places but that's a detail not relevant to the plot. TLJ has the high tension time crunch so from the narrative they should be completely different but TLJ did not film those scenes that way.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

Well, I think it's an interesting idea but the roles would be tricky to work out. Like, do we now have a light side-ruled First Order trying to chase down this one Sith? Or does Rey somehow become in charge of the First Order? Lol.

Before TLJ, it was hard to tell how big the FO actually was. In my ideal version of the script, they would be a lot smaller, and have been completely screwed over by the loss of Starkiller Base rather than absorbing that defeat like it didn't matter. As a faction, they would be essentially defeated by the time dark Rey was stepping into her role.

Hot take: its the best one.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

Well, I think it's an interesting idea but the roles would be tricky to work out. Like, do we now have a light side-ruled First Order trying to chase down this one Sith? Or does Rey somehow become in charge of the First Order? Lol.

I think you'd have to have Ben truly regret killing Han and have to work with the resistance to stop the monster that he helped to put in power with the First Order, which would also allow for some meaningful interactions with Leia as well as giving Luke something to do despite being one of the most powerful people in the universe at this point in time. He clearly had a lot of trauma over what happened at his temple, but he'd have to face that as well as somehow mend his relationship with Ben.

For Rey, I think she would have to be more torn up about her parents and being dumped on Jakku. As is, she's honestly just too good and pure to be corrupted, but she clearly puts a lot of value on family and belonging. I'd actually keep most of her interactions with Ben as they at least have a dynamic already, but I'd also keep her parents being nobodies. You'd have Ben and eventually Snoke slowly chipping away at her over the movie with the reveal that her parents were nobodies who never came back for her being the final nail. She wouldn't be setting out to be evil or gain power, but she'd be an absolute mess at this point which would leave room for her to actually fall to the dark side. Weirdly I think it would be best if Snoke survived episode 8 because I don't think there's enough time to set up someone else to corrupt her, nor do I think she'd actually be a danger in need of combatting without being poked.

There's nothing conceptually wrong with most of the characters, they're just wasted. Luke and Leia have barely anything to do, but you have force sensitive twins, one of which is the actual last Jedi while the other is an influential leader. Finn got done so fucking dirty, but you could do a trilogy about him alone because an ex Stormtrooper is a great concept. Poe is "just" a resistance fighter, but we haven't had someone who was an existing resistance member yet and he bounces off Finn great.

SAlYAN posted...

Not helped by Luke literally NOT being the chosen one. Anakin was still the chosen one of the OT. Luke was basically there to offer Vader a second chance, by being basically "padme but a jedi."

He certainly is, both from a narrative and even lore perspective.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93J_ZeCwWbw&pp=ygUUc3RhciB3YXJzIG1hdWwgZGVhdGg%3D

2:00 min mark its outright stated. Hell even putting aside the story, lore and all that rubbish by the time Kylo calls Rey a nobody shes far from that then. Shes the rebellions star champion and hero of the galaxy thats destroyed the star killer base.

So the trilogy undermined that aspect of her before it even started.

Southernfatman posted...

Why couldn't there be another powerful Jedi character that's not related to the Skywalkers/Palpatine/other established characters though?

If they start out that way, its bad writing in most contexts.

If they start out as a nobody and become powerful, thats the heros journey, but movies dont really have enough runtime to do that properly, and OT Luke is one of the better examples, where most of his development happens off-screen due to the lack of runtime.

Even if youre going to do it, it takes writers and a director who can do that properly, and the ST didnt have that.

You definitely cant have someone start out very competent and setup expectations that theres some kind of hidden lineage tie to beloved characters going on, then rug pull into them being a nobody. Thats textbook bad writing.

PraetorXyn posted...

thats the heros journey, but movies dont really have enough runtime to do that properly

Disagree. Mulan and The Incredibles both nailed the Hero's Journey.

Prismsblade posted...

Shes the rebellions star champion and hero of the galaxy thats destroyed the star killer base.

Except she literally did not. That would be Poe.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

Disagree. Mulan and The Incredibles both nailed the Hero's Journey.

It depends on the context. If youre talking about the Star Was universe and a literal nobody with no genetic gift or prior experience as a pilot or anything at all going through a proper arc to end up as force-of-nature level powerful in the Star Wars universe, no, three movies aint gonna do that like a series of books could. It just isnt. The OT didnt even do that, and that was with time skipping two different training periods for Luke.

It definitely had potential. The villain, while not cool, felt more like an IRL villain. I also liked that they had Rey be tempted by the dark side. It would've been interesting to see her struggle with that, especially with how she was told she came from nothing. It's too bad the third movie tossed all that out the window.

This has been said plenty of times before but the Last Jedi is absolutely godawful.

It is a mess based around a giant chase where main characters can jump out and go on side missions as they please. It is disaster where every character is made to be a joke in one scene only to have the narrative expect you to take them seriously the next. It is such a bad middle movie, that it offered almost nothing to the final film in terms of characters and took SO MUCH from the series.

And I love the shit about Kylo Ren somehow being "developed" or being in a good spot at the end of the film. He was developed into an extremely incompetent manchild who practically fell into his position by killing a guy who was getting high off the dark side in a sneak attack. He then let Rey go and was embarrassed by Luke. This is after getting wrecked in the first moive. That is the only villain they had left at the conclusion of the Last Jedi (that isn't even getting into the character who was so destroyed at that point someone had the brilliant idea to replace him and turn him into a spy).

It is a just a mess in nearly every department from in-universe logic to tone, to characterization to its handling of larger themes. Absolute, unequivocal, garbage.

I think in 20 years time TLJ is going to get reevaluated at the best of the sequel trilogy

VRX3000 posted...

I think in 20 years time TLJ is going to get reevaluated at the best of the sequel trilogy

Which is a pretty low bar, what with being sandwiched between ANH clone and a dumpster fire.

TLJ did have good ideas. It also had bad ideas. But at least those good ideas give it an edge over RoS, which was just bad ideas.

While we're talking about sins committed by the Disney trilogy, why the fuck did they not give Rey a double bladed lightsaber?

Villain_S_Fiend posted...

TLJ did have good ideas. It also had bad ideas. But at least those good ideas give it an edge over RoS, which was just bad ideas.

TRoS had a good idea when Rey killed Chewy.

Well, when we thought Rey killed Chewy. Then it became a bad idea when that didn't actually happen.

TRoS had an idea that looked good at first, I guess.

Look, I'm trying to be optimistic here.

UnholyMudcrab posted...

While we're talking about sins committed by the Disney trilogy, why the fuck did they not give Rey a double bladed lightsaber?

They did, and it was my least favorite thing about TRoS.

At the very beginning, Rey is trying to hit the training droid or whatever and she can't get it with the lightsaber, so she gets all pissed off and uses her staff that she's actually used to. Hm. Interesting. This could play into the theme we've seen going through the first two of rejecting a tradition that doesn't work in favor of what does work. Maybe we'll see a Jedi who straight-up uses a staff instead of a lightsaber.

Instead, they decided to associate the staff with evil, to the point that they gave evil Rey the double-bladed lightsaber.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/1e4aa39c.png

Oh, so she was evidently so pissed off with training that she momentarily gave into the dark side or some shit. That's what that was all about, huh?

SAlYAN posted...

And yet as far as the overall narrative is concerned, in the context of the entire trilogy AND 1-6, episode 1 is still about him. It gets this primary character into play, immediately establishes his gravity/importance, and the symbolism and metatext of the Duel of Fates, which is the focus point of the climax, is that it's dueling over Anakin's fate.

It's not about any individual piece, it's about how they all connect to each other. Episodes 1-3 are about a Skywalker. 4-6 are about a Skywalker, technically two skywalkers. 1-6 are about the rise, fall, and redemption of a Skywalker. 1-3 set up a Skywalker as an ideal hero who fails, 4-6 sets up the son as the dramatic foil who succeeds in all the ways his father failed. The father's lobe for Padme drives the OT, while Luke's echoing of Padme's best qualities is what enables the redemption in 6. Episode 1 has Shmi tell Anakin "you can't stop the change, any more than you can stop yhe sun's from setting." We then have 5 movies of Anakin trying desperately to control everything he possibly can, to "stop the change," only to finally relinquish that power and control in the end, sacrificing himself for his son.

All the business with the Empire, the Republic, the Rebellion, and even the Jedi is window dressing. The Skywalkers, their internal struggles, the family dynamics, they are the beating heart of that saga. It's what ties literally everything that happens in that saga together.

It's why Kylo Ren would make for a much more interesting protagonist. He echoes all of those struggles in a unique way. From his perspective on his destiny, to his rejection of the familial connections; he idolized the grandfather without really understanding who thar grandfather actually was. His arc is a lot more in keeping with what made the story work, still functions as a hand-off, and doesn't have the jarring "psych! Now for something completely different" whiplash of suddenly out of nowhere handing the reigns to someone totally unrelated in the final chapter.

I just do not see how the Sequel Trilogy, in its current form, breaks this dynamic by not having Kylo Ren explicitly be the protagonist. Again, he more or less gets character development and complexity on par with a lead character and the entire storyline behind the sequel trilogy exists because of the Skywalkers. And as corny, cheesy and dumb as it was, the last movie establishes Rey as inheriting the Skywalker lineage.

It just feels like an arbitrary writing restriction to say that Kylo Ren absolutely must be the protagonist. We can talk about "execution" all day, though.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

They did, and it was my least favorite thing about TRoS.

At the very beginning, Rey is trying to hit the training droid or whatever and she can't get it with the lightsaber, so she gets all pissed off and uses her staff that she's actually used to. Hm. Interesting. This could play into the theme we've seen going through the first two of rejecting a tradition that doesn't work in favor of what does work. Maybe we'll see a Jedi who straight-up uses a staff instead of a lightsaber.

Instead, they decided to associate the staff with evil, to the point that they gave evil Rey the double-bladed lightsaber.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/1e4aa39c.png

Oh, so she was evidently so pissed off with training that she momentarily gave into the dark side or some shit. That's what that was all about, huh?

One of the lowkey worst parts about TRoS is they had the perfect excuse to have Rey build her own unique, double-bladed lightsaber that better fit her fighting style and personality. And yet they literally bullshit back together Anakin's lightsaber JUST to do more nostalgia pandering. That creative decision is honestly representative of everything wrong with TRoS; lazy pandering getting in the way of creativity and just good storytelling.

I wouldn't have even minded if she used parts from it to build her own saber.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

One of the lowkey worst parts about TRoS is they had the perfect excuse to have Rey build her own unique, double-bladed lightsaber that better fit her fighting style and personality. And yet they literally bullshit back together Anakin's lightsaber JUST to do more nostalgia pandering. That creative decision is honestly representative of everything wrong with TRoS; lazy pandering getting in the way of creativity and just good storytelling.

I wouldn't have even minded if she used parts from it to build her own saber.

Tbf, she still could.

tl;dr I really like TLJ, you don't have to read this. I think RoS coming out did more damage to both the whole series and TLJ specifically then anything to come out of TLJ.

Kylo Ren ending TLJ as basically a school shooter was great, but then totally thrown away because some idiot at Disney felt like he needed to be redeemed for some reason. No his whole character arc was about him refusing redemption. That he's still failing basic lessons that he should've been passing when he was with Luke, while trying to pretend he's Darth Vader and trying to turn Rey to the dark side, as if he's a remotely capable Sith, because he's trying to fulfill ridiculous expectations based on his family. He's like a 4Channer, and he was a threatening villain not because he was like, a strong powerful threat, but because he's completely unhinged and there's seemingly no way to address this dude without causing a monumental amount of damage?

Luke failing by making an impulsive decision (which he did all the ****ing time in the OT) that ended up having catastrophic consequences are a completely justifiable reason for him to go into some self-imposed exile, just like both of his teachers, not to mention him attempting to recreate the Jedi order literally destroyed the universe again, justifying his complete disillusionment with everything he was doing. The acknowledgement that the "legend" of Luke Skywalker has gotten so out of control there's no way to live up to it was fun, and Luke's arc in the movie ended in a perfect way to support the "legend" of Luke Skywalker, more than him as an actual person, while the actual person of Luke Skywalker was able to directly respond to Kylo Ren's character arc, which allowed the seemingly impossibly dire situation to be saved, and that's awesome.

Finn had a fun arc of wanting to actually stand for something, whereas the whole original movie he was really just following Rey like a puppy. He gets to go on a fun little side quest where he learns everything sucks and actually trying to make the world a better place is a good thing, and then when the whole thing fails and Finn has to address his past, he finally decides he wants to fight against it, and that's a really fun character arc.

Poe has a fun little C-story about becoming a proper leader, and the fact the headstrongingly jumping into things isn't always the best decision. Upon the first rebuffment, he is able to convince half the fleet to perform a mutiny and put Finn and Rose on a side quest that spectacularly backfires and nearly ruins the actual rebel plan. And only by his spectacular movie-plot side quest failing does he realize that the rebel plan actually wasn't bad and that to be a good leader (which he clearly is) he can't go running roughshod into things.

And Rey has an excellent story where she has to come to terms with her crippling emotional issues that were set up in the first movie. She's built up this huge legacy about how finding Luke will save everything, how her parents must have been important because this is Star Wars and she has to be special, and it's all a lie. Luke is just a guy who's been completely disheartened by his own faillures and Rey's parents sold her for beer money. And Rey is unwilling to fully accept this, and seems insistent that they can just get things back to some mythical status quo and everything will be better again. This whole time Kylo Ren is offering some magical idea that all her problems will be solved and she can find the acceptance she's been craving forever by joining him and becoming a school shooter. And while Kylo's main failure is his inability to accept that he has any other options than the road he's currently going down, Rey is unwilling to sacrifice her belief that you can just do the thing and suddenly everything is back to good again - which we saw when she leaves Luke and it turns out she stole all the Jedi texts - seemingly unwilling to accept that bunch of what Luke told her was correct.

You as the viewer can see The First Order doesn't offer any of the stuff Kylo Ren is preaching to Rey about - you can see everyone is parasitic and leeching off of each other - Snoke seemed to think he owned Kylo, being unaware of Kylo's collapsing mental state, and its teased pretty clearly Hux is more than happy to stab Kylo in the back at the first opportunity to talk power for himself.

Everything was great and set up for a great concluding chapter, but then we got RoS and:

• Kylo Ren gets the single most awkward redemption arc in the entire franchise, leaning with the similarly most awkward kiss in the series (which does include Luke kissing his sister)
• Kylo Ren being school shooter levels of unhinged is just sort of swept under the rug.
• Luke loses anything interesting he had developed before and just exists to be a nostalgia-grab, and then buff up Rey's ego instead of adding anything interesting.
• Poe loses all characterization and becomes "friend of main character"
• Rose loses all characterization and is demoted to "rebel with lines"
• Finn loses all characterization he had and reverts to "just wants to **** Rey"
• They throw away everything going on with the First Order and just have The Emperor return with a giant fleet of magical generic CGI armies set to take over the galaxy, completely undermining everything about the last two movies for a weak nostalgia pop.
• Rey loses all characterization, and becomes a generic good guy hero who actually does have super-special awesome family and was abandoned for a good reason and she doesn't need to have any internal conflict again because it turns out she had nothing to be internally conflicted about.

Just takes everything TLJ tried to actually do and spits on it, throws it away, or actively works against it which makes the whole movie, the whole trilogy, and the whole 9-movie "Skywalker saga" fall apart pretending this is how it ends.

BakonBitz posted...

It's not even the issue that the sequel trilogy wasn't planned out (the OT wasn't planned out either, at least fully), it's that they didn't even TRY to make each movie flow into each other regardless.

Not trying to be a jerk responding to this so late (I was at a work event), but I really think the Disney bungling here was a lot worse. The original trilogy was not in perfect form on release of ANH, but there was one creative mind behind each movie. Whatever one thinks of Lucas, his vision was tying it all together.

It appears to me that Disney told Abrams to do whatever he wanted with movie 1, said the same to Johnson for movie 2, and then asked Abrams for stitch to together the resulting Frankenstein in movie 3. Which is not a great way to run a coherent franchise.

DrPrimemaster posted...

The most interesting thing about the first movie was Finn's story.

He escapes the first order and grows throughout the movie until the end where he bravely fights against someone stronger than him.

And him and Poe's relationship was great and instead of being further developed they gave both of them lame side plots.

I really agree with this. I thought Ridley did a good job as Rey, but Finn was the best and most interesting character in the first one to me. And the friendship I was most invested in was the one between Finn and Poe. I think Finn should have been a huge part of all three films.

Also, my big gripe when these movies first came out is that the actions of the rebels had not changed anything in any obvious way. The First Order was just the Empire with a different name. That is beginning to bug me again after watching Andor, where the sacrifices of the rebellion are so masterfully portrayed.

Westernwolf4 posted...

I really agree with this. I thought Ridley did a good job as Rey, but Finn was the best and most interesting character in the first one to me. And the friendship I was most invested in was the one between Finn and Poe. I think Finn should have been a huge part of all three films.

Also, my big gripe when these movies first came out is that the actions of the rebels had not changed anything in any obvious way. The First Order was just the Empire with a different name. That is beginning to bug me again after watching Andor, where the sacrifices of the rebellion are so masterfully portrayed.

Im wondering if Filoni will tie Thrawn to the First Order, sort of bringing Zahns vision into this version of the franchise. Thrawn has the military mind to build up such a force.

But I kind of hope that isnt what happens. Thrawn strikes me as someone who would actually thwart the FO just because Hux and Kylo are so annoying.

Proto_Spark posted...

But Poe saved the Rebellion by destroying that dreadnaught that would of destroyed the fleet. So no going in guns blazing was a good idea. He also stood down when he knew there was a plan instead of just being petty and keeping the commander of your fighters who twice now saved the Rebellion in the dark and give him nothing to do. So what else can he do but sit there and think about how all of them are going to die if he doesn't do something.
Dear lord Holdo your a leader give him a job to do.

The Empire is also so incompetent that it's baffling.
They destory the Rebellion's hangers with fighters... So why not keep using the fighters? Why not jump a ship ahead of them? Every single action of the Empire has to be explained away as "their stupid".

The whole casino planet. So they need a code breaker but get arrested for parking violation.
Than a prisoner also happens to be an expert code breaker and easily gets them out of the cell which aparently he was just sitting in for hours waiting for them?
Than they release a bunch of horses that the slaves will probably get blamed over.

Than the whole message Finns arch is outright stated to be wrong earlier.
"You idiot don't sacrifice yourself, protect what you love!"
"Wow Admiral Holdo sacrificed herself to protect us all!"
Huh?.