Current Events > Men aren't approaching women in person anymore

(+) Yeah! (+)

Solid_Sonic posted...

You are INCREDIBLY cynical.

Yes.

Solid_Sonic posted...

It's not my only encounter I've had with Umbreon that went with "that's how it is - it sucks but that's how it is, even if it's unfair".

Definitely reinforces the "being realistic means accepting how bad everything sucks," worldview that I hate to wake up with.

You are misunderstanding my intent. I am not saying you should just roll over and go "Everything sucks, nothing you can do about it.".

I am saying "This is the bullshit you've been handed. Make some lemonade."

I'm not going to coddle anyone, tell them that everything is just fine. I'm not going to bullshit you like that.

But that doesn't mean things are hopeless. It's not, as long as you're breathing then things aren't hopeless.

But things are bullshit, and it only hurts you to not be aware of it.

self confidence issues on my part, social anxiety, I dont value myself as a person etc. all this leads to me never even attempting to talk to strangers

I imagine for other people who dont have those issues, they also consider stuff like being seen as a creep or being viewed as a villain/threat from the get go.

like imagine building up the confidence and hyping yourself up to go talk to someone and then they respond with something like ew, freak or pervert, creep. Thats basically the nightmare scenario. Or going on a date and it wasnt the best, so they shame you on social media or something

Umbreon posted...

am saying "This is the bullshit you've been handed. Make some lemonade."

Or in the words of perhaps my favorite quote:
"Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet you can't win."

Rika_Furude posted...

self confidence issues on my part, social anxiety, I dont value myself as a person etc. all this leads to me never even attempting to talk to strangers

Not that you specifically asked for advice but in this situation I REALLY suggest people start small talk with like cashiers and stuff, Trader Joe's cashiers are trained to be friendly and talkative if you have one of those.

I speak from experience, I basically did not talk to ANYONE outside my immediate family and best friend for years, I was terrified, but small controlled interactions like that helped. Then I would move on to trying to make small talk at bus stops and places like that, made an effort to join clubs in college despite being too afraid to speak in them for a long time. You build up resilience little by little each time.

I wasted years in an online bubble because I was afraid of interaction, I just really want to encourage people to break out of that too.

Rika_Furude posted...

like imagine building up the confidence and hyping yourself up to go talk to someone and then they respond with something like ew, freak or pervert, creep. Thats basically the nightmare scenario. Or going on a date and it wasnt the best, so they shame you on social media or something

Focus less on the aura loss and more on the bullet you just dodged. Anyone who would shame you like this hasn't mentally left high school.

Does getting shot down so rudely sting? Oh God yes it does. I'm not going to pretend that isn't a kick in the pants.

But what's the worst thing that can realistically happen? She talks about how "some dude" tried to hit on her? Unless her phone is out and she's recording, she's not going to post you specifically on social media. Even if she does, what are the chances anyone will even recall you in a week or so?

The fear of humiliation is understandable, but also overrated.

Glob posted...

I dont think thats true. Women arent some mysterious creature to unravel. Theyre just people. And if you can talk to people, you can talk to women.

Again, not necessarily in a way that makes dating accessible.

There are plenty of people with a ton of friends who have never dated.

Umbreon posted...

Anyone who would shame you like this hasn't mentally left high school.

i was gonna say, outside of teen nick shows, idk if real women would talk like that, lol

You know, I bet that if women made the first move they will more likely have the guy say "Yes" then "No", but the real reason women don't do it is because they fear the same thing most guys fear...the pain of rejection. The trick is this, to not lose faith but rather to learn from you failures and improve on it.

We're at a tricky point where dating has become commodified whether it's online dating apps or dating coaches/help. Most of them want you to fail so you can keep using them until you hit a breaking point where you just give up because of a lot of bad experiences.

Personally, I hate cold approaches because it feels almost no different than those sales people that just cold call you to sell you on life insurances and other junk you don't need. I rather build a relationship, whether it's through friends or meeting people in hobbies I enjoy (like community service events and board game gatherings). I can't stress how much better it is to organically meet someone and start a relationship with them than it is to go to some random women at a bar and offer than an expensive as fuck drink that you don't know anything about other than how they look.

SecretBase posted...

Again, not necessarily in a way that makes dating accessible.

There are plenty of people with a ton of friends who have never dated.

Actually, Ive never known a single one. Ive known people with lots of friends who are bad at relationships and cant make things stick long term. But theres massive overlap between people who cant get dates and people who cant make friends.

I can only speak for myself, and I know that's a very limited and skewed viewpoint. But I don't feel there's any point.

First of all, I have really bad social anxiety(which is actually noticeably improving though), and I excluded a lot from social stuff and kind of shunned. So I never really learned how to deal with people outside of being a people pleaser and putting them ahead of myself.

That's leads to the next issue, where even the more sociable and capable people struggle, are seen as creeps, and looked down upon. So me, being the reserved and awkward guy that I am really don't stand a chance.

Then there's the fact that I've been shot down so many times. And it was always when I wasn't even trying. Like, it's an automatic defense mechanism for women to let me know up front that they aren't interested. Y'know, let him know up front that he has no chance at all.

Then there's my failings to find anyone so far. I mean, you'd think just by chance I would've found someone by now. But no.

I also have really strong emotional walls in place, and it takes a long time for me to open up to people. So by the time I am ready to get to know someone, they've moved on and forgotten about me.

Glob posted...

Actually, Ive never known a single one. Ive known people with lots of friends who are bad at relationships and cant make things stick long term. But theres massive overlap between people who cant get dates and people who cant make friends.

One of my best friends is one of those guys. He has dozens of friends, including women friends, but has not been able to date once in 43 years. I have seen him ask out women as well, and both myself and a few other friends have wing mand for him back in the day, but ladies have always said he is nice, but turned him down. Hes a truly good and sweet dude, but extremely socially awkward and not the best looking guy. I have even floated to our mutual lady friends to try and hook him up with someone they know, but they have all told me the same thing, that he is sweet as a person, but none of their friends would date a guy like him. People like that do exist, whether you have come across them or not. I cant speak to the numbers of them that exist, but I can say they do, from my own anecdotal experience.

I still appraoch in person and it works. I used to do sales though so im pretty good at immediately reading people

Lots of guys don't understand or aren't receptive to when a woman is not interested and they kinda ruin the vibe for the rest of us.

Doesn't matter though, nothing in life worth having is easy and dating apps suck so we must carry on lol

AFreeby posted...

One of my best friends is one of those guys. He has dozens of friends, including women friends, but has not been able to date once in 43 years. I have seen him ask out women as well, and both myself and a few other friends have wing mand for him back in the day, but ladies have always said he is nice, but turned him down. Hes a truly good and sweet dude, but extremely socially awkward and not the best looking guy. I have even floated to our mutual lady friends to try and hook him up with someone they know, but they have all told me the same thing, that he is sweet as a person, but none of their friends would date a guy like him. People like that do exist, whether you have come across them or not. I cant speak to the numbers of them that exist, but I can say they do, from my own anecdotal experience.

Im not denying that people like that exist completely. I just dont feel they make up a significant portion of the forever alone, incel, cant possibly get a date kind of crowd.

But there is a definite connection across wider samples of people who struggle to date having fewer or even no friends. You can also see it across genders, in that women are much less likely to struggle to get dates (thats not to say that they always get what they want but they are less likely to have absolutely no options on the table) and generally report having more friends than men do.

Glob posted...

Im not denying that people like that exist completely. I just dont feel they make up a significant portion of the forever alone, incel, cant possibly get a date kind of crowd.

But there is a definite connection across wider samples of people who struggle to date having fewer or even no friends. You can also see it across genders, in that women are much less likely to struggle to get dates (thats not to say that they always get what they want but they are less likely to have absolutely no options on the table) and generally report having more friends than men do.

Which is all well and good, but if any of those people exist, I think its a problem. Hell, I think its a problem for my buddy, and have been trying to help him with it often over the years, but still to no success. Yes, people with fewer friends will be less social, and therefore have more troubles with dating, but there are still some percentage out there that have a strong social group, and still cant find companionship, even though they are trying, and have others to help them out. Dismissing them, just because they may be fewer in number does nobody any good, and is simply ignoring the reality of some people to make your point, even when it has flaws.

Glob, I dont think you are a bad or malicious person, but I do think, from everything I have seen from you over the years, that you deliberately ignore issues and people that dont favor your argument, and simply default to what may or may not be the majority, or what is most favorable, in statistics, which removes the individual human element from things and reduces everything down to percentages to simply argue a point with. Thats how I see it though.

Glob posted...

But there is a definite connection across wider samples of people who struggle to date having fewer or even no friends. You can also see it across genders, in that women are much less likely to struggle to get dates (thats not to say that they always get what they want but they are less likely to have absolutely no options on the table) and generally report having more friends than men do.

A woman with no friends would still have an easier time getting a date than a guy with a decent social circle, there's no point comparing across genders, women get asked out and can match on dating apps while the same is often not true for men.

To add on to my last post, if even one person is suffering, through little or no fault of their own, it is too much to me. And I do believe there are men who would be good, loving partners to women out there, that cannot succeed in courting, no matter how hard they try. And I dont think it is insignificant number either. That is incredibly sad to me, and Im not going to ignore those guys, just because true, no friends, social outcasts and misogynistic incels may outnumber them.

I doubt this is true because look at all the dudes online simping for a plain girl who happens to be good at video games

and some of those girls are nowhere near 8s or 9s

AFreeby posted...

Which is all well and good, but if any of those people exist, I think its a problem. Hell, I think its a problem for my buddy, and have been trying to help him with it often over the years, but still to no success. Yes, people with fewer friends will be less social, and therefore have more troubles with dating, but there are still some percentage out there that have a strong social group, and still cant find companionship, even though they are trying, and have others to help them out. Dismissing them, just because they may be fewer in number does nobody any good, and is simply ignoring the reality of some people to make your point, even when it has flaws.

Glob, I dont think you are a bad or malicious person, but I do think, from everything I have seen from you over the years, that you deliberately ignore issues and people that dont favor your argument, and simply default to what may or may not be the majority, or what is most favorable, in statistics, which removes the individual human element from things and reduces everything down to percentages to simply argue a point with. Thats how I see it though.

Im ignoring anything. Ive acknowledged that people like this very well may exist and have in no way challenged your perception of your friends situation.

However, when talking about an issue that impacts a lot of people, its generally useful to talk about the issues and nuances of it that would have the greatest impact. Its not about being right. Its about trying to help. Otherwise, why would I care? Im very happily married. And yet I find myself drawn to these kinds of topics. Why? Because I feel like theres a lot of people in them who, if they were willing to accept a little nudge in the right direction, might actually see their happiness improve immensely.

Now Im sorry if you feel that my comments dont help you or apply to you in any way. But thats okay. They dont have to. Im not claiming to have all the answers for every situation.

the very fact you are all giving women scores

is exactly what the problem is

AceMos posted...

the very fact you are all giving women scores

is exactly what the problem is

Right, this whole topic is giving me the ick. You can almost see the fedoras.

AceMos posted...

the very fact you are all giving women scores

is exactly what the problem is

Yeah there is unfortunately a lot of incel energy in this thread. It isn't everyone, but a lot.

KogaSteelfang posted...

I can only speak for myself, and I know that's a very limited and skewed viewpoint. But I don't feel there's any point.

First of all, I have really bad social anxiety(which is actually noticeably improving though), and I excluded a lot from social stuff and kind of shunned. So I never really learned how to deal with people outside of being a people pleaser and putting them ahead of myself.

That's leads to the next issue, where even the more sociable and capable people struggle, are seen as creeps, and looked down upon. So me, being the reserved and awkward guy that I am really don't stand a chance.

Then there's the fact that I've been shot down so many times. And it was always when I wasn't even trying. Like, it's an automatic defense mechanism for women to let me know up front that they aren't interested. Y'know, let him know up front that he has no chance at all.

Then there's my failings to find anyone so far. I mean, you'd think just by chance I would've found someone by now. But no.

I also have really strong emotional walls in place, and it takes a long time for me to open up to people. So by the time I am ready to get to know someone, they've moved on and forgotten about me.

People rejected you bdfore you even asked??? What the fuck Im so sorry

AceMos posted...

the very fact you are all giving women scores

is exactly what the problem is

I doubt that has anything to do with some guy not approaching women. No evidence the people doing that even the ones who have any problems dating.

Individualism and emphasis on the self has turned into self centeredness and poor sense of boundaries and compromise.

General laziness/lack of willingness to out in the work to make oneself more desirable and presentable.

Young people were raised by iPads and not taught normal people skills, cannot communicate their emotions effectively, can't process their negative ones efficiently, so any negative outcome gets exasperated and blown out of proportion.

Too much trepidation, not enough risk taking. People csnt even bring themselves to define a relationship they're in, they'd rather exist in the situationship zone to minimize damage if its not what they want while simultaneously still eyeing benefits of a full relationship. Goals, desires, plans, all of it muddled and vague and no one willing to make the push.

Many men want to be with a women but don't want actually like women that much.
Many women want to be with a man but don't actually like men that much.

Possibly both derived from unrealistic standards and overt emphasis put on physical attributes that are far less important than what we are taught to view them as(men with "weight", women with "height")

Overemphasis on casual relationships, while wanting the perks that come with long term ones. Fear of commitment. I know a young lady right now who's in a relationship with a dude, likes him a lot, is considering giving him a key, yet isnt willing to get hitched. Wheres the investment?

Just some of the factors, but yeah social media and the chappy economy hurts a lot too. Young people are going to have to do a generational referendum at some point snd realize how far we've fallen before we can fix this.

Glob posted...

And theres the problem.

If youre cold approaching somebody it should be to casually talk, at least at first. You know nothing about this person other than how they look and the same is true for them. Get to know them a little and then if something happens, itll happen organically. Its really not as hard as many people make it seem.

You can ABSOLUTELY approach someone with intent to date them btw.

Like, that's a very normal thing. Especially when a lot women aren't exactly up for a new casual guy friend either lol.

Too much dating apps. I was in a girls bed last year and checked the time on her phone, she had like 100 tinder notifications.

SecretBase posted...

I doubt that has anything to do with some guy not approaching women. No evidence the people doing that even the ones who have any problems dating.

as if no women act similarly. totally irrelevant fingerpointing followed by dudes who 100% only clicked the thread to throw around the words incel and fedora and put each other down while feeling like a "good guy"

EpicMickeyDrew posted...

I was in a girls bed last year and checked the time on her phone

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/5a263712.jpg

e: oh my bad, you checked the time, i misread it as like... the time she was spending on dating apps, lol

although tbh i would still not touch someone's phone without permission

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

hmmm yes i will p r o w l the local Borders stationery section

viewmaster_pi posted...

as if no women act similarly. totally irrelevant fingerpointing followed by dudes who 100% only clicked the thread to throw around the words incel and fedora and put each other down while feeling like a "good guy"

If you read through the whole topic and didnt get creeped out or a little alarmed by the comments ranging from scoring women, how plain women can get dates if they like video games, pretty privilege, talking to Trader Joes cashiers to work yourself up to talking to women at bars/social settings, and then the general tone of the commiserating I dont really care what you think. Some of the conversations were a bit alarming even.

Every time I've ever approached a woman, it was almost self-destructive in nature. "Well, I'm gunna die some day, might as well talk to that girl I kinda like."

IDK, not really who I am.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Youre acknowledging women get more dates and yet are still coming to the conclusion that there's an equal opportunity for romantic partnership to form. What you're not realizing is that for every date you're getting, there many guys for that one guy you're dating who aren't even getting a first date, dating app data has shown this pretty definitely. Theres more men on the dating apps, and yet women have much more success getting things going. A larger pool to choose from, and a higher success rate.

As for the guys claiming they're afraid due to #metoo or videos of women finding guys creepy or whatever.. women out in the real world don't operate like the women you see posting on Twitter. There's bot farms and propaganda to feed into dating scares.

Thats like saying g no men in the real world act like the manosphere clowns we see online.

Sure as heck many do. And many women act the way you see online. Not all of them, but its not an insignificant amount snd it's not all bots either. And even if it was, it influences real people who spend their time engaging with this stuff.

MotaroRIP619 posted...

talking to Trader Joes cashiers to work yourself up to talking to women at bars/social

Wait what, unless someone else mentioned trader Joe's cashiers I didn't say anything about talking to women at bars or social settings, I didn't even single out women, my post was about overcoming social anxiety to talk with people in general.

El_Dustino posted...

Wait what, unless someone else mentioned trader Joe's cashiers I didn't say anything about talking to women at bars or social settings, I didn't even single out women, my post was about overcoming social anxiety to talk with people in general.

My mistake then, it probably all blurred together that way when I read all the posts together.

El_Dustino posted...

Wait what, unless someone else mentioned trader Joe's cashiers I didn't say anything about talking to women at bars or social settings, I didn't even single out women, my post was about overcoming social anxiety to talk with people in general.

Based on their comments I'm beginning to think that poster just doesn't like men that much in general? I mean, if you're willing to let a couple gamefaqs comments make you "like men less" idk what else I'm supposed to conclude :

Wow a lot of incel-y takes in here. I cant un-gay myself so I dont know what to do even. But this topic made me like men a bit less I think.

If any dude here said this about women he'd be rightfully obliterated

MotaroRIP619 posted...

If you read through the whole topic and didnt get creeped out or a little alarmed by the comments ranging from scoring women, how plain women can get dates if they like video games, pretty privilege, talking to Trader Joes cashiers to work yourself up to talking to women at bars/social settings, and then the general tone of the commiserating I dont really care what you think. Some of the conversations were a bit alarming even.

You seem to deliberately want to twist some posts here, which seem to generally be quite innocent and honest in their intent, to morally castigate others, with false implication, to simply pat yourself on the back in an online social setting, in what seems to be attempt to garner clout or favor from like minded individuals. That reads as pretty disingenuous to me, and more a way to shame men and less an actual care for women or even care for the issue of the topic at hand.

Kanaya413 posted...

People rejected you bdfore you even asked??? What the fuck Im so sorry

Yep. It's ok, that's all in the past now.

Toonstrack posted...

You can ABSOLUTELY approach someone with intent to date them btw.

Like, that's a very normal thing. Especially when a lot women aren't exactly up for a new casual guy friend either lol.

You can but that doesnt mean that you should. For the reason I already mentioned, as well as the fact that you would be using it as part of the selection process yourself.

If I were single and saw a beautiful woman across the bar, Id be thinking I want to talk to her not I want to sleep with her. For all I know shes an idiot or a bigot or any number of other things that would kill my interest. Thats part of what the conversation is for.

Gladius_ posted...

Getting a guy who actually wants to be "romantically" involved with us is far more difficult and if that's the goal we're after that can be every bit as difficult as a man seeking the same.

If comparing a woman to an assertive man, yes. But if you're comparing a woman to a passive man, there are extemely few situations where the latter won't have immensely more difficulty getting to any stage of dating, includng romantic partnership.

AFreeby posted...

You seem to deliberately want to twist some posts here, which seem to generally be quite innocent and honest in their intent, to morally castigate others, with false implication, to simply pat yourself on the back in an online social setting, in what seems to be attempt to garner clout or favor from like minded individuals. That reads as pretty disingenuous to me, and more a way to shame men and less an actual care for women or even care for the issue of the topic at hand.

Ah no, dont use our own words against us. Except I admitted when I did mistake someones intent/wording. Maybe people dont mean to come off as gross as they do when they say things like women deserve it! Its their own fault. Etc

but its self pitying crap and exactly why said people are and always will be alone. I am not trying to pat myself on the back. What would I be doing that for?

KogaSteelfang posted...

Yep. It's ok, that's all in the past now.

Still so nasty especially if it was when you were adults (I know teens pull that kinda shit sometimes)

Kanaya413 posted...

Still so nasty especially if it was when you were adults (I know teens pull that kinda shit sometimes)

One was as a teen in high school. Others were as adults.

MotaroRIP619 posted...

Ah no, dont use our own words against us. Except I admitted when I did mistake someones intent/wording. Maybe people dont mean to come off as gross as they do when they say things like women deserve it! Its their own fault. Etc

but its self pitying crap and exactly why said people are and always will be alone. I am not trying to pat myself on the back. What would I be doing that for?

I havent seen the post that said women deserve it (I have seen a few its thier faults), but if its in this topic, give me the post number, so I can at least see the context, as I do think the current climate of relationships in the modern world is partially the fault and the result of poor decisions and actions by both men and women. Again, Id have to see the context of that post though to see if it was simple misogyny or had a valid critique of the current situation.

As for the second part, while I do think my initial comment in regards to you was maybe a little harsh, and maybe overly cynical in your intent, seeing you come back with the self pitying crap and overly defensive and aggressive tone is what makes me think you dont have honest intentions in this conversation, and simply want to shame men instead of listen to those who are trying to have honest dialogue, and not directly attacking anyone. Id like to be wrong about this, but the tone of your posts does not do you any favors, though you may not care. Still, I call it as I see it

MotaroRIP619 posted...

Maybe people dont mean to come off as gross as they do when they say things like women deserve it! Its their own fault. Etc

did anyone say that in here?

you however are very comfortable saying it's their own fault about men in a huge sweeping brush stroke rivaled only by Ed Clark's push broom

i see sad lonely dudes who don't know what to do with themselves, and until i see them denigrating women (and no, saying women have it easier in dating or whatever is not an attack, regardless of accuracy) or advocating for their harm like some manosphere or elliot rodger shit, i have no interest in taking jabs at people at a low point as it is.

did you perhaps think that maybe some guys end up the way they do because men treat each other like shit, are denied softness and patience growing up, and are constantly judging each other? i have no interest in contributing to the cycle just so i can say "take that, fedorabeard!" and beat my chest

Gladius_ posted...

I just don't see it. I have many friends who are single. Some have been single for years. Some out of desperation throw themselves at the people who seem nice enough to show them interest and end up used/abused as a result. Their stories keeps the others single. I was in a few relationships in college but post college I was single for many years before I met my husband.

We (women) can struggle with relationships all the same. Our hurdles are different but they exist.

From Pew Research:

Almost half of the public says dating has gotten harder in the last 10 years
Nearly half of U.S. adults (47%) say dating is harder today for most people compared with 10 years ago, while a third say it is about the same and 19% say its easier today.
Women are much more likely than men to say dating has gotten harder (55% vs. 39%). Black women (62%) are more likely than Hispanic women (50%) to say dating has gotten harder, while 55% of White women say the same. Only 9% of Black women say dating has gotten easier in the last decade, compared with 14% of White women and 27% of Hispanic women.

Further.. just like there is for men.. there are many articles targeted at women about why they are single, what to do to help become more desirable, and many more. The reasons for these articles are simple:

Because many women are lonely too. Gender wars over "who has it worse" are pointless.

There are many passive men who just don't have relationships at all. No having them then becoming disillusioned with the process, they just never get in the game at all. Citing general polls doesn't have a bearing on that since most men are assertive, and therefore don't have the same issues as their passive counterparts.