Current Events > a video calling out the double standard about "girlboss" characters

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BlueBoy675 posted...

Eren is the main character of AoT. Are you supposed to root for him as he commits genocide on a global scale?

you sure as hell rooted for him at the beginning though no? well, you might of, i kind of wanted him to die because of all the fucking screaming he did...

my point wasn't that you always agree with the main character. my point is that when a story is written following one character throughout the story you're going to be most invested in them. you naturally want to root for them, because you understand them the most.

AceMos posted...

factually false

riri from iron heart is a great female character she has tons of flaws

the video proves this with direct comparison to other characters who DONT get mocked for those exact same flaws

What he said does hold some truth to it though. It's not always true, but it does happen. Especially in manga/anime. Tons of mangaka have been terrible at writing women. Like Kishimoto with Naruto characters.

Mary Sue characters are 1000x worse than any "girlboss"

Usually obnoxious can-do-anything types whose flaws are usually ignored and hog all the empathy from the other characters even though they don't really deserve it

HylianFox posted...

Mary Sue characters are 1000x worse than any "girlboss"

Usually obnoxious can-do-anything types whose flaws are usually ignored and hog all the empathy from the other characters even though they don't really deserve it

list some of these mary sues

AceMos posted...

list some of these mary sues

Michael Burnham from ST Discovery instantly springs to mind
Also mirror Georgiou

Objectively terrible characters who the writers adore so everyone else adores them too despite being terrible.
Neither of these two undergo any sort of real development or learn lessons because dammit they're just so perfect and awesome
>_>

AceMos posted...

and these female characters get humbled to thats the point

Carol Danvers was practically untouchable during her own movie.

Idk if the later movies/shows did her better but she was unbelievably boring in her debut.

They go out of their way to set up a scene that would've been perfect to flesh out her character, then threw it away in favor of snark.

They had Monica dictate her character to the audience and we just had to take her word for it since she was an amnesiac up to that point.

She had exactly one character flaw and the story decided to subvert it by going for a "you're perfect just the way you are" message which i guess is fine, but she didn't have anything else.

Compare that to Iron Man who suffers multiple scenes of embarrassment and humility in his debut. >_>

God I've been trying to like Danvers since 06 and every time I give her a shot she's just fucking boring lmao

Voidgolem posted...

I think the fundamental problem is that most modern writers don't actually know how to make a strong female character without overshooting somehow

Yeah. You can't be tryhard about it or force it out. These type of characters come naturally.

Outlaw star's twilight Suzuka is a example of it done right. She doesn't try (and they don't have to make her act like a jackass), she just is.

Mad-Dogg posted...

Yeah. You can't be tryhard about it or force it out. These type of characters come naturally.

Outlaw star's twilight Suzuka is a example of it done right. She doesn't try (and they don't have to make her act like a jackass), she just is.

and yet people rarely say these things about male characters

which is the point of the video

But the real problem with "girlboss" as a label is that it applies to pretty much any female character who isn't a damsel-in-distress or else only exists to fuck the MC

It's just too broad (no pun intended)

I think the signs really point to the fact that arrogance and traits in general, tend to be more accepted when the character in question has their own unique quirks and identities that make up their strengths and flaws. There just isnt enough of that being sold in what Im going to consider the counterparts to well established tropes, well established ideas, and anything that weve trodded upon for the past 2000 years.

Unfortunately, history has favored sides, and those sides have had time to fashion new identities, work on these established tropes, put a spin on them, etc.

Morals have been expanded upon, the ideas of things like strength have been expanded upon to the death, and theres enough vocabulary there to even see the complete trajectory of a downfall or rise to whatever the occasion is

When the big picture idea is well this is so important for us, this is so important for history, and what Im going to offer is the same person, but just as a woman, people will catch on to that. Im not trying to excuse the expected ignorance here, but theres some genuine arguments for why it sucks yknow

Theres a weird balancing act on the table between this is important and notice it and its not important, it shouldnt be a thing and I think the current conversation is made even more complex when you try to factor in the fact that people are more fluid than we try to give them credit for

Its not like you can play up the strengths of women in a unique way because, regrettably, there isnt a history of heel turning like there was for men where you had a macho macho era that had an actor break the trend by being tender and soft in their approach.. being vulnerable.. I feel like that has yet to come into fruition in terms of unique stories for women in general

Our best bet are the books largely ignored by the public, side benched by publishers, all the stories of womens struggles pretty much erased and lost to time.. and the times now.. I mean, if thats the pool we want to draw from.. I cant really say its going to stand up to the vast catalogue of Egyptian scripture, the medieval times documented, etc.

Im clearly not smart enough to articulate this well.. so Im hoping someone can catch on to what Im getting at.. ignorance and all >_>

basically, like any good art, there needs to be an effort to really dive deep and solicit that never ending connection to people while making the story both truly unique and universal at the same time

not a small feat.. time to get the minds together

AceMos posted...

and yet people rarely say these things about male characters

which is the point of the video

For what it's worth for me personally I feel the exact same way about the male characters that is supposed to be this manly badass archetype.

Kenpachi from bleach is one for the men i feel is a bit too tryhard. Someone like gildartz from fairy tail is this type of character i feel was done right.

Kan Wan, you used a lot of words there to say so little I have no idea what your point is.

Mad-Dogg posted...

For what it's worth for me personally I feel the exact same way about the male characters that is supposed to be this manly badass archetype.

Kenpachi from bleach is one for the men i feel is a bit too tryhard. Someone like gildartz from fairy tail is this type of character i feel was done right.

thank you for saying that

thoe speaking of fairy tail

look at how people treat erza vs how they treat zoro from one piece

or for another anime example

the universe 6 girls from dragon ball compared to brolly

Erza is fucking awesome. Anyone who says otherwise is jealous of her aura, especially in her samurai armor.

AceMos posted...

thank you for saying that

thoe speaking of fairy tail

look at how people treat erza vs how they treat zoro from one piece

or for another anime example

the universe 6 girls from dragon ball compared to brolly

Honestly if Erza wasn't an already long established character with a large Fandom she would get hit by the girlboss mary sue label so hard if she was just introduced today by the grifters

Raiden2909 posted...

Honestly if Erza wasn't an already long established character with a large Fandom she would get hit by the girlboss mary sue label so hard if she was just introduced today by the grifters

people where calling her a mary sue back in the day

thats why i brought her up

she does the same shit many male shonen characters do but it was a problem with her

Boa is also arrogant

but tbh part of her popularity is indeed her boobsize

Erza was always my favorite fairy tail character. Right from her intro when she strolled into the guild carrying a demon horn. Yeah, she wins a lot but she knows what the fairy tail verse is about when it comes to friendship lol.

Her grand magic games "Yeah ill fight them all" then raising her arm in victory goes hard.

AceMos posted...

people where calling her a mary sue back in the day

thats why i brought her up

she does the same shit many male shonen characters do but it was a problem with her

Oh i know.. But it would be so much worse now, Back in the day while it happened she still had a fanbase that mostly shouted it down, Its was very much in the minority, Now though.. would be a completely different story

Mad-Dogg posted...

Erza was always my favorite fairy tail character. Right from her intro when she strolled into the guild carrying a demon horn. Yeah, she wins a lot but she knows what the fairy tail verse is about when it comes to friendship lol.

she is also a massive goofball just like the rest of the idiots

and speaking of friendship power

i love that in fairy tail its not just the hero who gets friendship boosts anyone can

WingsOfGood posted...

Emma Frost is an arrogant snarky girlboss no one complains about

well Kitty might

I don't care for Emma Frost mainly because writers always overlook her obvious flaws because they like arrogant snarky girlboss. It always annoys me how everyone basically "forgot" she was a major adversary to the X-Men and did a lot of fucked up things to several of them. The X-Men always eventually take in various villains under circumstances but the way writers seem to glorify Emma at times just rubs me the wrong way.

AceMos posted...

people where calling her a mary sue back in the day

thats why i brought her up

she does the same shit many male shonen characters do but it was a problem with her

Wait were they really? Back when I still kept up with Fairy Tail, she was pretty beloved. At least in the comment sections for each episode. But I also stopped watching Fairy Tail before it finished.

NoxObscuras posted...

Wait were they really? Back when I still kept up with Fairy Tail, she was pretty beloved. At least in the comment sections for each episode. But I also stopped watching Fairy Tail before it finished.

just go over to the anime OT board here on gamefaqs and look up old fairy tail discussions

Kaitouace posted...

I don't care for Emma Frost mainly because writers always overlook her obvious flaws because they like arrogant snarky girlboss. It always annoys me how everyone basically "forgot" she was a major adversary to the X-Men and did a lot of fucked up things to several of them. The X-Men always eventually take in various villains under circumstances but the way writers seem to glorify Emma at times just rubs me the wrong way.

Might be because Magneto, Xavier and Cyclops all did bad things too. Was about Utopia when all the villians joined the team right as it was mutants to unite.

AceMos posted...

just go over to the anime OT board here on gamefaqs and look up old fairy tail discussions

Ah, maybe that's why. I wasn't active at all on gamefaqs back then. Didn't even know of the existence of the social boards lol. All of my Fairy Tail discussions were in the comment sections of the sites I used to use for anime

WingsOfGood posted...

Might be because Magneto, Xavier and Cyclops all did bad things too.

thats kinda comic trope in general

characters sins get swept a side

look at how many villains have become anti heros

venom EATS people and he is buddy buddy with the heros

People loathe any woman that isn't just fanservice or a doorstep for the man.

AceMos posted...

people where calling her a mary sue back in the day

thats why i brought her up

she does the same shit many male shonen characters do but it was a problem with her

yeah, because she was introduced as stupid strong from the start without much detail. then they actually fleshed out her character.

Mibahlzitch posted...

Kan Wan, you used a lot of words there to say so little I have no idea what your point is.

I hardly know my own thoughts on a given matter so I dont blame you

They just sit in an ether bucket swirling around until some good can come out of em

monkmith posted...

yeah, because she was introduced as stupid strong from the start without much detail. then they actually fleshed out her character.

She was getting hit with these comments well past her introduction, Almost anytime she had and won a solo fight had a small segment of people bitching about her being an "Overpowered Mary sue" The whole Grand magic games with her taking on the 100 monsters in pandemonium stunt especially gets brought up a lot

Dio posted...

People loathe any woman that isn't just fanservice or a doorstep for the man.

to be fair the male characters are also fanservice

if they are ugly people don't like them either

or is there a secret fans of leech or toad club I don't know about

Zoro is designed this way
Saint Charlos is gross
same with booger dude from Doflamigo crew

Raiden2909 posted...

She was getting hit with these comments well past her introduction, Almost anytime she had and won a solo fight had a small segment of people bitching about her being an "Overpowered Mary sue" The whole Grand magic games with her taking on the 100 monsters in pandemonium stunt especially gets brought up a lot

dont forget taurtorus

AceMos posted...

riri from iron heart is a great female character she has tons of flaws

yes. And?

For every Riri there are tens of badly written power fantasies.

Male characters are not exempt from this either (and the numbers there jack up into the hundreds instead of the tens because the sample size is larger. That's it's own can of worms that also needs fixing)

I agree there are double standards, but Skylar sucks. Even if she is male, everyone will hate.

monkmith posted...

i dont know who any of those other people are.

Ironheart is the new Iron Man. In the comics she exists alongside Tony. In the MCU she of course has to replace him since he's dead. She's a teenage genius who can build similar armor suits that Tony made

Also, people insist that girls/women are always idealized, but:

- Old men can be strong and even bitter for numerous reasons. Old women only cause they couldn't find love.

- Girls and women only quarrel because of sharing a crush, whereas guys cause again have various reasons to quarrel.

AceMos posted...

thats kinda comic trope in general

characters sins get swept a side

look at how many villains have become anti heros

venom EATS people and he is buddy buddy with the heros

It especially annoys me with Emma because I've always been a Firestar fan and Emma did her dirty years ago and Firestar is still treated like an afterthought and always down on her luck in modern comics.

Kaitouace posted...

It especially annoys me with Emma because I've always been a Firestar fan and Emma did her dirty years ago and Firestar is still treated like an afterthought and always down on her luck in modern comics.

ooof yeah i can under stand that

Zikten posted...

Ironheart is the new Iron Man. In the comics she exists alongside Tony. In the MCU she of course has to replace him since he's dead. She's a teenage genius who can build similar armor suits that Tony made

didnt watch ironheart but her intro to the mcu was snarky, genius college student who invented something nobody else did not to mention a fully functional iron suit in her high tech garage/lab.

kinda set the mood for the rest of her girlboss character arc for the rest of the movie

AsucaHayashi posted...

didnt watch ironheart but her intro to the mcu was snarky, genius college student who invented something nobody else did not to mention a fully functional iron suit in her high tech garage/lab.

kinda set the mood for the rest of her girlboss character arc for the rest of the movie

and why is that a bad thing

this technology has existed for decades

the video actually addresses this

AsucaHayashi posted...

didnt watch ironheart but her intro to the mcu was snarky, genius college student who invented something nobody else did not to mention a fully functional iron suit in her high tech garage/lab.

Peter Parker invented his webshooters at 16 when it's clear that Ben and May don't bring in the big bucks.

AceMos posted...

and why is that a bad thing

this technology has existed for decades

the video actually addresses this

I mean even calling it a fully functioning suit is a bit much, its only a little better the the suit tony made "IN A CAVE WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS" its honestly somewhere between in and the next suit he made that would freeze up at high altitudes

Also DCAU Batman dodging Darkseid's Omega Beam in JLU's Destroyer. Going by BTAS original approach he would have been gone completely.

Antiyonder posted...

Peter Parker invented his webshooters at 16 when it's clear that Ben and May don't bring in the big bucks

yes, riri with her money/access to high-tech equipment and ability to make a metal detector for vribanium that nobody else could as well as a functional iron suit(it flies well which is more than tonys first suit did) is more of a boss character than parker was when starting out

AsucaHayashi posted...

yes, riri with her money/access to high-tech equipment and ability to make a metal detector for vribanium that nobody else could as well as a functional iron suit(it flies well which is more than tonys first suit did) is more of a boss character than parker was when starting out

And tony literally invented time travel in all of 5 minutes, created a portable arc reactor in a cave with a box of scraps, and Nano tech more advanced then any other tech in the series

your trying to exaggerate a characters achievements in an attempt to mislead and distort, yes she created something people thought was impossible because she is smart and had one of the most prestigious universities behind her waiting to see if she succeeded and a suit she made over the span of months with having Tonys suits as a concept to guide her

Raiden2909 posted...

And tony literally invented time travel in all of 5 minutes, created a portable arc reactor in a cave with a box of scraps, Nano tech more advanced then any other tech in the series

your trying to exaggerate a characters achievements in an attempt to mislead and distort, yes she created something people thought was impossible because she is smart and had one of the most prestigious universities behind her waiting to see if she succeeded and a suit she made over the span of months with having Tonys suits as a concept to guide her

tony has seen major ups and downs throughout his arc not to mention he started his arc with a hole in his chest.

as i said riri was introduced to the mcu with everything already mentioned

Raiden2909 posted...

And tony literally invented time travel in all of 5 minutes, created a portable arc reactor in a cave with a box of scraps, Nano tech more advanced then any other tech in the series

yeah i think the nanotech was just disney cheeping out on special effects. it kind of looks cool, but its not the armor up sequence you used to see and its much easier to do battle damage with a suit like that. its kind of like how the michael bay transformer movies swapped from bots transforming "realistically" to bots turning into a swarm of metal to transition between forms.