Current Events > Fantastic Four has an 80 percent drop in week 2 Box Office

(+) Yeah! (+)

Charged151 posted...

The New 52 had some good moments and stories, but yeah... I can't dispute this as a whole.

oh yeah you cant not have some good stuff there. But the editorial made terrible calls. And. Well.

just baffling decision after baffling decision. Unsustainable amounts of books, too

We need more Cassandra Cain. All I will say.

agreed! Her being marginalized and erased was bizarre and absurd

They should do Fantastic Five instead

Evolician posted...

They should do Fantastic Five instead

That happened once in a single issue. It was a what if story where Spider-Man joins. And they change their name. But by the end of the story Sue leaves the team to marry Namor. It sucks for Reed

up to 370 mil global now not too bad

LightSnake posted...

Its many stories! Doesnt work when superhero comics refuse to grow. Writers constantly retcon or overturn previous attempts

Comcis grow and change all the time. The only people who say they dont... aren't reading them. Or haven't in a while.

Almost no character currently being published is stagnant nor is their lives. Their lives have changed immensely.

its happened with lots of heroes. Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, Scott Free

Did batman debut with a son birthed by one of his villains, a relationship with Catwoman and his surrogate father alfred dead? No he didn't.

Did superman debut married to lois with 3 kids? No he didn't.

Sid spider man debut a young adult with his best friend in high shchool out of his live and green goblin now rehabilitate and working as an ally alongside him?

every single character as seen change. Every.

Single.

One.

even new comics thay were hits like Runaways get fucked over. Not even Swamp thing was safe because DC just decided they hate Alan Moore and completely undid one of the best twists in comics history and turned the character into a corrupted monster who needed to die so they could revive Alec Holland.

Right, because Alan Moore never introduced massive retcons to direct his narrative for the story regarding swamp thing. Totally never.

This is the problem. Yoire fine with retxons, you just want the ones you like to stick and never be changed.

Not how this works.

or Batgirl, where they erased maybe the best disabled rep in comics for no good reason.

The best disabled rep from a character basically being fridged (by Alan Moore again) with the famous line "crippled the b***"... thats your disabled rep? Was that not "disrespecting" her character prior lmao?

You can't pick and choose when it's ok and when it isn't.

Charged151 posted...

The New 52 had some good moments and stories, but yeah... I can't dispute this as a whole.

We need more Cassandra Cain. All I will say.

agreed! Her being marginalized and erased was bizarre and absurd

Shes had a solo book running since last fall. She was a major character in the ram v detective comics run that went for almost 3 years. She was in batgirls alongside Stephen and babs for 2 years in 2023. She has appeared in every single batman run since like 2020.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/ef24d1b6.jpg

Are either of you buying her solo? Thats how you get more Cassandra cain. By showing up when they give her a chance. If you don't you cant keep asking them to put out a character no ones buying.

Toonstrack posted...

Comcis grow and change all the time. The only people who say they dont... aren't reading them. Or haven't in a while.

And then that growth almost inevitably gets reversed.

Take Hank Pym. He went through a story of a mental breakdown that culminated in him slapping his wife. He hit rock bottom, redeemed himself, defeated the villains, conquered his demons and reconciled with Janet. The hypocrisy of several writers led to this arc being his entire character to the point of sheer lunacy and "Hank Pym: Domestic Abuser" became his entire past. It covered every single relationship he had, it became an inescapable sin and none of that development mattered.

Should we talk Wally West? Mr. Miracle? Blade? Captain Britain? Magneto?

Like how far can we go in discussing development and growth that gets kicked back because of dumb manchildren?

Almost no character currently being published is stagnant nor is their lives. Their lives have changed immensely.

Until they get completely reversed for....reasons.

Did batman debut with a son birthed by one of his villains, a relationship with Catwoman and his surrogate father alfred dead? No he didn't.

I would not use Batman as one of these examples. Especially given how they cannot commit to the relationhsip with Catwoman (to the point they retconned him as the father of her daughter),

Also, Alfred is coming back. Don't even try to pretend otherwise. Same as Aunt May did.

Did superman debut married to lois with 3 kids? No he didn't.

Something DC also reversed in the Flashpoint reboot. Literally one of the first issues of the new 52 was Clark having to hear Lois screwing a guy with his super hearing as he sadly got in an elevator. My point is just being proven.

Sid spider man debut a young adult with his best friend in high shchool out of his live and green goblin now rehabilitate and working as an ally alongside him?

Which Green Goblin exactly? Because I wouldn't use THAT as an example either given at least two Green Goblins unnecessarily came back from the dead.

And, y'know, how they refused to let Peter grow up too much to the point he sells his marriage. We're told Peter is a genius and yet he listens to a pitch from Mephisto that is literally "you and your wife have the most precious and rare loves on the planet, far more special than mummified old women older than I am. And it would make, me the supreme ruler of darkness, very happy to take that away from you and spite God himself in the process!"

Nobody has ever really explained why it was necessary to bring back Kraven and undo JM DeMatteis's Last Hunt.

every single character as seen change. Every.

Single.

One.

Until it gets reversed, which is the point. Scarlet Witch married Vision and had kids. Then John Byrne took over, famously hated Vision and reduced him to a lobotomized Terminator and had the devil erase Wanda's kids from existence so she went insane.

its a shame really cause its definitely the best Fantastic Four movie i've seen.

Right, because Alan Moore never introduced massive retcons to direct his narrative for the story regarding swamp thing. Totally never.

This is the problem. Yoire fine with retxons, you just want the ones you like to stick and never be changed.

Not how this works.

See, that might hold water. If, actually, Len Wein didn't love the idea and wasn't fully supportive of it to the point he believed it deepened the character and the mythos immensely. It doesn't change that by the time of Brand new Day, Swamp THing had been an established character in the Moore tradition for about, oh, 30 years. And Moore didn't even *change* that much, except to introduce "Alec Holland" was actually already dead while building on Swampy's actual character.

Geoff Johns, because he has a shit fit about all things Alan Moore, decided to completely destroy that character and bring back a guy nobody actually cared about while gutting Abigail's character in the process.

The best disabled rep from a character basically being fridges with the famous line "crippled the b***"... thats your disabled rep?

Yeah, sorry, this is only flying if you thought I didn't have the context.
Yes, Len Wein did say that when asked. But Alan Moore didn't create "Oracle." John Ostrander and Kim Yale did, specifically because they hated how the character was fridged and wanted to work that pointless tragedy into a positive example of representation in Suicide Squad.

Not only was it incredibly well received, it led to the future portrayals in Birds of Prey, especially Gail Simone's run. This was "hey, the original team fucked up, let's do something positive with it and give Barbara back her agency."

Oracle turned out to be one of the best ideas DC ever had. But hey, gotta reverse for it....well, not many people talk about the New 52 ones now. Just like they reversed Dick stepping into the Batman role, did whatever the fuck they did with Roy Harper after pointlessly killing his daughter and so forth.

This is the thing. Shitty decisions made by edgelords and people who cannot accept change. And when change does come, it will be reversed. Barry Allen died one of the best deaths in superhero comic history. Jeph Messner-Loebs and Mark Waid proceeded to spend time showing Wally growing into the role in what was THE example of a sidekick taking over the mantle right.

But Geoff Johns and his Nazi sidekick decided they missed a guy who'd been gone for like 30 years and had to bring him back, which meant Wally had to be erased, lose his marriage and see his kids vanish from existence.

But sure, everything is FINE. Nothing is wrong. All those declining sales? Don't worry about it! The box office declining to the point Feige has to publicly address the failures? No worry! Just keep pretending everything is FINE while DC and Marvel are getting rolled by other markets.

The most popular superhero comic in the world is My Hero Academia, unquestionably. And then probably One Punch Man. The Big Two are having a hard time capitalizing and it's hurting them

ZevLoveDOOM posted...

its a shame really cause its definitely the best Fantastic Four movie i've seen.

It'll also have the best box office of a fantastic four movie

LightSnake posted...

And then that growth almost inevitably gets reversed.

Take Hank Pym. He went through a story of a mental breakdown that culminated in him slapping his wife. He hit rock bottom, redeemed himself, defeated the villains, conquered his demons and reconciled with Janet. The hypocrisy of several writers led to this arc being his entire character to the point of sheer lunacy and "Hank Pym: Domestic Abuser" became his entire past. It covered every single relationship he had, it became an inescapable sin and none of that development mattered.

Should we talk Wally West? Mr. Miracle? Blade? Captain Britain? Magneto?

Like how far can we go in discussing development and growth that gets kicked back because of dumb manchildren?

Until they get completely reversed for....reasons.

I would not use Batman as one of these examples. Especially given how they cannot commit to the relationhsip with Catwoman (to the point they retconned him as the father of her daughter),

Also, Alfred is coming back. Don't even try to pretend otherwise. Same as Aunt May did.

Something DC also reversed in the Flashpoint reboot. Literally one of the first issues of the new 52 was Clark having to hear Lois screwing a guy with his super hearing as he sadly got in an elevator. My point is just being proven.

Which Green Goblin exactly? Because I wouldn't use THAT as an example either given at least two Green Goblins unnecessarily came back from the dead.

And, y'know, how they refused to let Peter grow up too much to the point he sells his marriage. We're told Peter is a genius and yet he listens to a pitch from Mephisto that is literally "you and your wife have the most precious and rare loves on the planet, far more special than mummified old women older than I am. And it would make, me the supreme ruler of darkness, very happy to take that away from you and spite God himself in the process!"

Nobody has ever really explained why it was necessary to bring back Kraven and undo JM DeMatteis's Last Hunt.

Until it gets reversed, which is the point. Scarlet Witch married Vision and had kids. Then John Byrne took over, famously hated Vision and reduced him to a lobotomized Terminator and had the devil erase Wanda's kids from existence so she went insane.

I still love Twisted Toyfare Theater's bio of her: "This chick married a robot and tried to have kids with it, then everyone acted surprised when she went crazy." ^_^

LightSnake posted...

And then that growth almost inevitably gets reversed.

Take Hank Pym. He went through a story of a mental breakdown that culminated in him slapping his wife. He hit rock bottom, redeemed himself, defeated the villains, conquered his demons and reconciled with Janet. The hypocrisy of several writers led to this arc being his entire character to the point of sheer lunacy and "Hank Pym: Domestic Abuser" became his entire past. It covered every single relationship he had, it became an inescapable sin and none of that development mattered.

Yeah, hitting your wife will do that.

But hank ptm isn't a great character to use with this because hank always had a damaged insecure side to him. Hes always had a dark side and that doesn't simply go away jsut because he reconciled with Janet.

His actions frove him to merge closer with ultrom for a period of years and he recently showed back up again in an underground but still heroic role..

I dont see how this is supposed to be an example of changes getting reversed, they haven't. Hank pym was irreversible changed as a result of his narrative and he was never brought back to his original status, not fully.

Should we talk Wally West? Mr. Miracle? Blade? Captain Britain? Magneto?

Magento who is fighting alongside the x men literslly in their current book.

Wally west who is married with 2 superhero kids.

Blade who is raising a daughter as a single father.

Captain Britain who is literally Betsy braddock now and has been for the past 7 years, is now openly dating a woman and that woman is the child of jean and cyke.

Dude are you caught up on any of these guys lmao?

Like how far can we go in discussing development and growth that gets kicked back because of dumb manchildren?

Until they get completely reversed for....reasons.

I would not use Batman as one of these examples. Especially given how they cannot commit to the relationhsip with Catwoman (to the point they retconned him as the father of her daughter),

They don't have a daughter in current continuity. That bat cat book was an elseworlds future. And no, hes still banging catwoman regularly. They however do see other people in occasion. That never changed in the first place.

Also, Alfred is coming back. Don't even try to pretend otherwise. Same as Aunt May did.

Its been 8 years. They are going to AI'd him in the new run, but the guy? He's still dead. You can't use soemthing that hasn't happened as an argument point. He was killed, and he stayed dead far longer than may did.

Something DC also reversed in the Flashpoint reboot.

You do know what reboot means right?

Which Green Goblin exactly? Because I wouldn't use THAT as an example either given at least two Green Goblins unnecessarily came back from the dead.

Norman. Norman is a good guy now. The sin eater too his sins away and he's been trying to make amends as an ally to Peter. This has been going on for 5 years.

And, y'know, how they refused to let Peter grow up too much to the point he sells his marriage.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Marriage doesn't mean you're grown up.

Hes currently in an open relationship. Think you would've seen that in the 60s? Think again.

Nobody has ever really explained why it was necessary to bring back Kraven and undo JM DeMatteis's Last Hunt.

It needs no explanation why they didn't leave the villain of one of the most celebrated spidey stories of all time dead.

But if it makes you feel better, THAT kraken is indeed dead, and his son has taken his place and role.

Until it gets reversed

Maybe it does, make it doesn't. Some stuff cna be reversed snd be a good story. Youre being incredibly arbitrary with this lmao.

"Charactess dont change. Exceot when they do. Exceot those ones might change back but haven't. Except some stuff shouldn't change from the runs *I* liked!"

LightSnake posted...

See, that might hold water. If, actually, Len Wein didn't love the idea and wasn't fully supportive of it to the point he believed it deepened the character and the mythos immensely. It doesn't change that by the time of Brand new Day, Swamp THing had been an established character in the Moore tradition for about, oh, 30 years. And Moore didn't even *change* that much, except to introduce "Alec Holland" was actually already dead while building on Swampy's actual character.

Geoff Johns, because he has a shit fit about all things Alan Moore, decided to completely destroy that character and bring back a guy nobody actually cared about while gutting Abigail's character in the process.

Its incredibly funny to see someone simultaneously decry Geoff Johns undoing some thing from a run they like whilst simultaneously defending the absolute disrespectful fridging of a prominent comics heroine and suggesting that fridging to permanently stain the character in the same breath.

Im guessing if Geoff johns wrote a story next week in which cass gets unceremoniously forced into retirement snd becomes a girl in the chair, that you wouldn't defend it as "improving the character". But because of antiquity, putting batgirl into a wheelchair for a jim Gordon character arc gets defended.

Yeah, sorry, this is only flying if you thought I didn't have the context.
Yes, Len Wein did say that when asked. But Alan Moore didn't create "Oracle." John Ostrander and Kim Yale did, specifically because they hated how the character was fridged and wanted to work that pointless tragedy into a positive example of representation in Suicide Squad.

Not only was it incredibly well received, it led to the future portrayals in Birds of Prey, especially Gail Simone's run. This was "hey, the original team fucked up, let's do something positive with it and give Barbara back her agency."

"But leave her in the wheelchair, and leave the fighting to the boys!"

Oh, how forward thinking they were. Its funny because TKJ wasn't even marketed as canon at first so they could have just ignored it entirely and they'd have actually been following you philosophy if they did.

You can get into the reeds about who wanted what and what was well rexievdd and what wasn't but that doesn't change that this was an explicit s****ing on an established prominent female superhero and in a world where no one dies or stays injured, she's stuck in the wheelchair? Batman can recover from a knee splitting his spine in two but a gunshot wound and she's out for good? Cmooooon.

It simply doesn't work. And she literally still operates as oracle to this day lmao, so your entire point is moot. It took 40 years to realize they had two cakes. She's batgirl when she needs to be but primarily, she's oracle. So they kinds did what you didn't want them to do. And went and reversed the change. But thT was a change you didn't like, so that's okay to reverse right?

Rest of the post is incoherent babble so I'm going to ignore it.

I'm starting to become convinced that Toonstrack is secretly Joe Quesada or something of that sort.

Toonstrack posted...

Yeah, hitting your wife will do that.

Spider Man once smacked his wife across the room and Reed Richards once used the power of domestic abuse to save Susan. The avengers once let Ms. Marvel get brainwashed and raped

But Hank is defined by something they worked through in the arc it happened in?

But hank ptm isn't a great character to use with this because hank always had a damaged insecure side to him. Hes always had a dark side and that doesn't simply go away jsut because he reconciled with Janet.

Man, almost like he worked through that

His actions frove him to merge closer with ultrom for a period of years and he recently showed back up again in an underground but still heroic role..

Yeah, bout that. They gave Hank more shit for the slap (which again, Janet long forgave him on) than in accidentally creating Ultron.

Magento who is fighting alongside the x men literslly in their current book.

Is Magneto a bad guy or a good guy now? Actually, how many kids does he have?
Can't wait for them to retcon out him being Jewish and you to shriek "The Holocaust was a LONG TIME AGO!" at everyone who dislikes it.

Wally west who is married with 2 superhero kids.

Oh was that restored again after they erased Wally from existence, vanished his kids and broke him and Linda up?

Blade who is raising a daughter as a single father.

Still "The Daywalker" or did they reverse that again? Asking for a friend.

They don't have a daughter in current continuity. That bat cat book was an elseworlds future. And no, hes still banging catwoman regularly. They however do see other people in occasion. That never changed in the first place.

You do remember when Selina showed up with a baby named Helena they strongly implied was Bruce's? And then decided against it and instead turned it to Selina cheating on her boyfriend with his son? Yeah, that was a highpoint.

Its been 8 years. They are going to AI'd him in the new run, but the guy? He's still dead. You can't use soemthing that hasn't happened as an argument point. He was killed, and he stayed dead far longer than may did.

bro, he's gonna come back. Everyone comes back. If you think "Omg this person DIED" means anything in Marvel and DC anymore, you're buying into a sucker's best they're selling you. Death means nothing in a superhero comic. Nothing.

You do know what reboot means right?

I like how it went from "Things CHANGE AND GROW!" to "They REBOOT things to undo those changes! AND?!"
Toonstrack posted...

Norman. Norman is a good guy now. The sin eater too his sins away and he's been trying to make amends as an ally to Peter. This has been going on for 5 years.

So how long till he turns evil then? You think for a SECOND Norman fucking Osborn is gonna stay a good guy?

He should've stayed dead from the 70s.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Marriage doesn't mean you're grown up.

Hes currently in an open relationship. Think you would've seen that in the 60s? Think again.

Marriage did mean Peter was grown up.

It needs no explanation why they didn't leave the villain of one of the most celebrated spidey stories of all time dead.

MY POINT EXACTLY. That celebrated story was all about Kraven dying, and wanting to achieve everything left to do. When he did it, he shot himself, because he didn't want to live anymore.

Undoing that removes the power of the original story. This is a huge problem with American comics because almost none of these deaths mean anything.

You seem to think it's just natural they'd undo it, when Kraven's death is the power of the original story and why it's so celebrated! That's the problem. IT's just so natural they'd undo it, because Marvel letting something rest is....

But if it makes you feel better, THAT kraken is indeed dead, and his son has taken his place and role.

AFTER he came back, pointlessly, and died again! And he'll come back again, too, because this is comics. This is hilarious.

You just say "they'd never leave him dead!!!" And uh, so they brought him back, killed him off and then his son took over the mantle...instead of just having his son do that from the start?

Maybe it does, make it doesn't. Some stuff cna be reversed snd be a good story. Youre being incredibly arbitrary with this lmao.

Good changes are good, bad changes are bad. Magneto being changed to be a Holocaust survivor from a one note discount Doctor Doom? Good! Marvel retconning Wanda and Pietro to not be his kids? Bad!

Marvel deciding to look at ages of iconic stories and throw them out so a select group of circle jerking manchildren can relive their lost youth? bad.
Toonstrack posted...

Its incredibly funny to see someone simultaneously decry Geoff Johns undoing some thing from a run they like whilst simultaneously defending the absolute disrespectful fridging of a prominent comics heroine and suggesting that fridging to permanently stain the character in the same breath

This reads like a DC press release. IT's painfully dishonest.

Everyone acknowledges Barbara's paralysis was, indeed, a "fridging." What you are ignoring is what other writers did to fix that and indeed, showed that being paralyzed did not "lessen" Barbara, but she made her life work with her disability and became a much greater hero than she ever was as Batgirl to provide incredible disability rep that was praised by fans and disability groups.

But because the corporate line was to undo this, you are desperate to find ways to defend it. You even refer to being disabled as a "permanent stain on the character," ignoring the joy and strength Oracle gave disabled fans and the pain that removing it caused them.

So no, don't be a hack. It is not "a run they like." By the time Oracle had been retconned away, Barbara had been Oracle longer than she had Batgirl, with multiple runs exploring her.

Im guessing if Geoff johns wrote a story next week in which cass gets unceremoniously forced into retirement snd becomes a girl in the chair, that you wouldn't defend it as "improving the character". But because of antiquity, putting batgirl into a wheelchair for a jim Gordon character arc gets defended.

This is just incoherent babble.

"But leave her in the wheelchair, and leave the fighting to the boys!"

Barbara Gordon kicked ass even in a wheelchair and had to fight multiple times. But good of you to take the stance "disabled rep isn't important."

Oh, how forward thinking they were. Its funny because TKJ wasn't even marketed as canon at first so they could have just ignored it entirely and they'd have actually been following you philosophy if they did.

Good thing for Ostrander and Yates!

You can get into the reeds about who wanted what and what was well rexievdd and what wasn't but that doesn't change that this was an explicit s****ing on an established prominent female superhero and in a world where no one dies or stays injured, she's stuck in the wheelchair? Batman can recover from a knee splitting his spine in two but a gunshot wound and she's out for good? Cmooooon.

Oh, now we care about REALISM. Again, this is just corporate mouthpiecing, man. Barbara had two successors as Batgirl and did more good as Oracle. The idea she wa s"Out FOr Good" is just straight dishonesty

It simply doesn't work. And she literally still operates as oracle to this day lmao, so your entire point is moot. It took 40 years to realize they had two cakes. She's batgirl when she needs to be but primarily, she's oracle. So they kinds did what you didn't want them to do. And went and reversed the change. But thT was a change you didn't like, so that's okay to reverse right?

Lmao, this is just a prime example of DC's shitty writing. "She's still Oracle! REALLY!"
Disabled fans: hey, uh, missing the point. We liked seeing ourselves represented. A prominent hero crippled in an act of horrible violence and had to adjust to life in a wheelchair really reflected many of our experiences. IT was really great seeing that, but also knowing that despite her disability, Barbara was a vital part of multiple teams who could be mission control and still fight when she needed to. It made us feel seen and-
DC: SHE'S STILL REALLY SMART! BEING SMART FIXED HER LEGS!
Fans: that's not what we-
DC: HAHAHA JUST A BUNCH OF WHINERS, YOUR REPRESENTATION IS SUPERBOY PRIME

Toon, they could write Batwoman being put through conversion therapy and start dating Mr. Terrific and you'd be screaming this was fine because "lots of women have a phase" and anyone who had a problem with it was just against interracial marriage or whatever.

Toonstrack posted...

Are either of you buying her solo? Thats how you get more Cassandra cain. By showing up when they give her a chance. If you don't you cant keep asking them to put out a character no ones buying.

To be fair, people don't buy most comics that aren't the mainstream, which is why DC was going more and more into Batman.

Anime generally brings people to the manga but movies and animated series don't bring people to comics. I guess that the Superhero fans basically migrated to any other media and dropped comics.

There's some weird paradox about how everyone knows and loves DC/Marvel characters but doesn't really buy many comics or even pirate them in the same amount of Manga, but they all consume all other type of media that has them voraciously like Games and Movies. It is like the names surpassed the medium to the point the medium itself became niche.

I mean, it is kinda crazy that I know people that went on their way to read multiple Isekai Slops which they admit they are mid at best, but don't have the will to not even bother reading a Comic even while they play a lot of Marvel/DC Games or watch MCU/DCEU movies.

Readership of Marvel and DC is down because comics stopped being sold everywhere like in decades past. You used to find comics in

Grocery stores
Gas stations
Pharmacies

Among other locations. Comics were well seen in the public eye. But now you have to go to a specific comic shop if you want the newest individual issues. Or you go to a bookstore and can find old volumes. Both companies have an online comic "streaming" app. But I think the average person is not aware of it. Neither app has done enough advertising

Zikten posted...

Readership of Marvel and DC is down because comics stopped being sold everywhere like in decades past. You used to find comics in

Grocery stores
Gas stations
Pharmacies

Among other locations. Comics were well seen in the public eye. But now you have to go to a specific comic shop if you want the newest individual issues. Or you go to a bookstore and can find old volumes. Both companies have an online comic "streaming" app. But I think the average person is not aware of it. Neither app has done enough advertising

I don't think it is necessarily the case, otherwise manga wouldn't have such worldwide appeal and many of them are inaccessible. Most manga readers I know just pirate them, and I don't see people even interested at pirating comic books.

I think Comic Books reputation of being a impenetrable wall of a continuity mess with retcons and unending plots that made young and teens balk away at some permanent level.

It can't be the stories otherwise the cartoons and movies that copied them wouldn't be popular, it can't be the pricing because people don't even try to pirate it.

People absolutely pirate comics lol.

Murphiroth posted...

People absolutely pirate comics lol.

But I don't see it to nowhere near as much extent as Manga, and that is the point.

It can't be accessibility if piracy is this easy for both Comics and Manga and yet people still stick mostly with Manga. You would expect the young to go for both but thats not what happens.

So what is the catch? What makes people balk at Comic Books but not Manga?

LightSnake posted...

bro, he's gonna come back. Everyone comes back. If you think "Omg this person DIED" means anything in Marvel and DC anymore, you're buying into a sucker's best they're selling you. Death means nothing in a superhero comic. Nothing.

Tbf Alfred has been dead for a long time now by modern comics standards. Like it's been years. People expected DC to have brought him back by now, but they haven't done it yet. >_>

Ivynn posted...

Tbf Alfred has been dead for a long time now by modern comics standards. Like it's been years. People expected DC to have brought him back by now, but they haven't done it yet. >_>

6 years, right? Props, but I just don't believe it'll stick. When there's another Batman film, someone will decide to bring him back for sales.

Kraven was dead like 20 years. Bucky was dead for like 50. Harry Osborn stayed dead for almost 20. Ditto Norman. Barry Allen was gone for almost 30.

6 years isn't much

LightSnake posted...

6 years, right? Props, but I just don't believe it'll stick. When there's another Batman film, someone will decide to bring him back for sales.

Kraven was dead like 20 years. Bucky was dead for like 50. Harry Osborn stayed dead for almost 20. Ditto Norman. Barry Allen was gone for almost 30.

6 years isn't much

That's why I said modern comics standards. It may be hard to believe now but there WAS a time when death in comics used to stick. I don't know exactly when it started to become a revolving door. I wanna say since Death of Superman?

Ivynn posted...

That's why I said modern comics standards. It may be hard to believe now but there WAS a time when death in comics used to stick. I don't know exactly when it started to become a revolving door. I wanna say since Death of Superman?

Superman was never really intended to stay dead, it was mostly just a publicity stunt with full plans to bring him back in that same story.

I think it was more the aughts? The 90s kinda started it a bit but the 2000s started just throwing shit at the wall. Barry Allen coming back was kind of the big one that just unleashed the floodgates.

I dont know why people keep bringing up the new 52 as if DC didnt completely undo it and then some. Lois and Clark have been married again for a decade and have a teenage son (as well as 2 other adopted kids), Wally and Iris have a third kid and Wally is the main Flash again, Cassandra Cain has a solo right now, Aquaman has kids, Green Arrow has a bunch of kids, Arsenal has a kid again, etc.

Marvel is the company that just refuses to let anything progress beyond a juvenile 60s status quo. Spider-Man is still a loser (who also gets laid every other month), the X-Men have to hug a racist constantly to show off their respectability politics, the FF dumped the Future Foundation, etc.

kaiolino posted...

Wally and Iris have a third kid

Um

DC did completely flop on Clark and Lois' kid however

LightSnake posted...

Spider Man once smacked his wife across the room and Reed Richards once used the power of domestic abuse to save Susan. The avengers once let Ms. Marvel get brainwashed and raped

Times change. So do comics. Long past time to accept this. (I agree more people should call our spidey for that but most of them are too busy crying over Paul or soemrhjng and pretending Peter was literally the perfect husband)

But Hank is defined by something they worked through in the arc it happened in?
Man, almost like he worked through that

Yeah, bout that. They gave Hank more shit for the slap (which again, Janet long forgave him on) than in accidentally creating Ultron.

Hank is defined by what writers thing will make for an interesting snd dynamic character. Having him screw up so badly is narrative gold, and the drama it creates between characters is what has sustained him and set him apart form the other founding avengers.

Any writer will go for that as opposed to the unproblematic wet blanket blanket. That's why they still talk about Tony's alcoholism too. Its like.... this is old news. Character flaws get played up because that makes stories interesting.

Is Magneto a bad guy or a good guy now? Actually, how many kids does he have?
Can't wait for them to retcon out him being Jewish and you to shriek "The Holocaust was a LONG TIME AGO!" at everyone who dislikes it.

It will never fail to impress me how bad your arguments get any time literally any media is involved. Like all critical thinking and rationality dissipates.

Magneto has Lorna dane who is confirmed to be his daughter. Quicksilver and scarlet witch are not his bio kds but he considers them his kids, mainly Wanda. He has always hated pietro and mostly still does.

And yes. Hes still Jewish lmfao.

Oh was that restored again after they erased Wally from existence, vanished his kids and broke him and Linda up?

Still "The Daywalker" or did they reverse that again? Asking for a friend.

You can google this stuff you know. Like, magneto hasn't been a full on villain in darn near 15 years at this point. Walls family has been back for going on 5 years. You are way, WAY behind, but the problem is you willing let allow your ignorance of the current status of these characters to define arguments for you. And when that fails, you just make stuff up.
LightSnake posted...

You do remember when Selina showed up with a baby named Helena they strongly implied was Bruce's? And then decided against it and instead turned it to Selina cheating on her boyfriend with his son? Yeah, that was a highpoint.

bro, he's gonna come back

I csnt tell if you want him dead or not.

As for Helena Wayne, you're complaining that a kid that was never confirmed to be Bruce's was confirmed to not be? That... that is silly you are aware right?

I like how it went from "Things CHANGE AND GROW!" to "They REBOOT things to undo those changes! AND?!"

Yes.... and?

DC rebooted long before new 52 lmao. They will reboot again. Thats how they keep their characters relevant to a world of change. Irs had hiccups but tis also done exactly that.. kept these characters relevant. Absolute batman is an anticapitalist power fantasy in comic book form.. something batman would never have been 50 years ago.. That word there is important. Change. Its going to appear again.

So how long till he turns evil then? You think for a SECOND Norman fucking Osborn is gonna stay a good guy?

He should've stayed dead from the 70s.

Marriage did mean Peter was grown up.

Into a wife beater?

And no, Norman has had plenty of great stories then.

You have fallen into the eowful trap so many readers of your period did. You expected the comic hooks to age alongside you, retire when you retire, and die when you die.

That was never going to happen. You aren't the target demographic anymore. Heck, im probably not either. The difference is, I don't scoff at change. I welcome it.

That was never going to happen. You aren't the target demographic anymore. Heck, im probably not either. The difference is, I don't scoff at change. I welcome it.

No, you don't Toon. You don't "welcome change." you welcome whatever the corporate line is. Your opinions always, and I mean ALWAYS line up with what some suit decides. YOu have no opinion of your own but the corporate slop they shovel down your throat.

"you're not the target demographic!"

Who is, exactly, Toon? Because the market share is shrinking. Sales have declined heavily and they can't or won't market them to tie into massively successful films. It happens again and again and again because, again, they're run by man children. Trapped eternally in the bygone era to recreate what it was like when they were kids. Marvel has utterly stagnated as a result.

The rest of your post is just screaming "NO! IT! ISN'T!!!!!!!"

You claim you welcome change, but you defend every reversal of the change if the corporate line tells you to. It's sad how little you seem to enjoy anything. You can't love any art that doesn't have a corporation telling you what you should enjoy to the point you've made it a personality.

MY POINT EXACTLY. That celebrated story was all about Kraven dying, and wanting to achieve everything left to do. When he did it, he shot himself, because he didn't want to live anymore.

Really? Last I checked that story is still well regarded and people demanded more kraven immediately after because he was a great villain. Crazy how that works. People want more of soemrhing when they like it.

Not even you believe no more stories could be told with kraven after KLH. And expecting oncoming writers to have am ever decreasing pool of characters they can use because one writer who didn't even create the character gets to determine the characters fate for all forthcoming writers is a frigfin terrible idea.

Death doesn't have to be permanent to have meaning. Even manga understands this, because manga is written by actual writers, and all writers understand this. Gokus died a bunch of times. No one says those didn't mean anything. Naruto died. Vader died. Until they didnt. This is an arbitrary non argument. Death in fiction is a narrative device same as anything else is. It is not like real death, that removes all futuree fate from its victim. It is a tool, a force to be wielded by the pen of the writer. Just like life.

LightSnake posted...

Good changes are good, bad changes are bad. Magneto being changed to be a Holocaust survivor from a one note discount Doctor Doom? Good! Marvel retconning Wanda and Pietro to not be his kids? Bad!

WHY is that bad tho? It's your criteria that is arbitrary and I don't even think you have a solid foundation for it. The purpose of the characters CHANGED and that necessitated their story CHANGING Same as magneto. He was CHANGED not jsut because but because with the CHANGE of his narrative role as an opposing view of the oppressed, his origin was CHANGED to give this new role more weight. Pietro and Wanda debuted as acolyte and pawns of magneto with little beyond that... until a new writer saw fit to CHANGE them and their allegiance to one of good; conflicted morality.

Under your philosophy, they - and magneto, would be stuck, imprisoned by the whims of stan and Jack books that no one even read at first. Its a perspective that endlessly falls under ifs own weight.

This reads like a DC press release. IT's painfully dishonest.

Everyone acknowledges Barbara's paralysis was, indeed, a "fridging." What you are ignoring is what other writers did to fix that and indeed, showed that being paralyzed did not "lessen" Barbara, but she made her life work with her disability and became a much greater hero than she ever was as Batgirl to provide incredible disability rep that was praised by fans and disability groups.

But because the corporate line was to undo this, you are desperate to find ways to defend it. You even refer to being disabled as a "permanent stain on the character," ignoring the joy and strength Oracle gave disabled fans and the pain that removing it caused them.

And what of the fans who liked her as f****ing Batgirl? You know, how she was created ? F*** them right? Sucks to be them, THIS CHANGE you can allow! Magneto gotta be pietro and wandas bio dad or we riot tho. You can't even see the double standard your employing.

It was never that she became disabled that was a stain. Its the circumstances in which it happened, and the writers feeling beholden to a character development that was the branchild of someone who didn't give af about the character. Imagine if Carol danvers retired from being ms marvel and became a social worker or politician after the brainwash baby story line and then Carol fans had to hear from people how "she's so empowering now that after being [mind abused] by the supervillain she kept up the fight to help people" meanwhile bruce gets his spine snapped like a twig and comes back good as new. Completely indedensible position. It's nice they made the best of what they had but they really could have just made her oracle AND batgirl, like they do now. Perhaps its a sign of CHANGING perspectives on female superheroes and how often they end up in babs position, and maybe it was time to give the character back her agency rather than making her entire existence irrevocably changed by a vaguely misogynistic British wizard?

This is just incoherent babble.

Oh Lightsnake. Youre a lawyer. You can read that sentence. I know you can.

Barbara Gordon kicked ass even in a wheelchair and had to fight multiple times. But good of you to take the stance "disabled rep isn't important."

Good thing for Ostrander and Yates!

Oh, now we care about REALISM.

We care about consistency. You can have the consistency or you can have the narrative weight. You can't shirk both. And you, you specifically.... cannot ignore that babs continuing to remain in the wheelchair could very well he just as muchha byproduct of the sexism of the time rather than a creative character decision. Lord knows it wouldn't have been Robin turned into a paraplegic permanently. Or, if they did wanna do that, they'd at least let the fans vote on it. Lol

Lmao, this is just a prime example of DC's shitty writing. "She's still Oracle! REALLY!"
Disabled fans: hey, uh, missing the point. We liked seeing ourselves represented. A prominent hero crippled in an act of horrible violence and had to adjust to life in a wheelchair really reflected many of our experiences. IT was really great seeing that, but also knowing that despite her disability, Barbara was a vital part of multiple teams who could be mission control and still fight when she needed to. It made us feel seen and-

Literally all of this still applies to her character lmao.

Not only was she still shot by Joker, that was never retconned, but she still in fact retains the Injury from that event. Its just that, she uses the resoruces if her billionaire ally who has cutting age technology to continue helping people in EVERY way she can. Its almost like, her recovery wasn't merely a physical one, but was brilliantly recontextualized to be an emotional one, where as opposed to simply continuing the fight from a wheelchair because she has to, she continues facing the villains head on, overcoming the natural fear that would come as a result of being a woman written by Alan moore!

Imagine if you all put this much passion and energy into something actually productive. Good lord

Jfc, this is a whole lotta words saying a whole lotta nothing.

LightSnake posted...

Who is, exactly, Toon? Because the market share is shrinking. Sales have declined heavily and they can't or won't market them to tie into massively successful films. It happens again and again and again because, again, they're run by man children. Trapped eternally in the bygone era to recreate what it was like when they were kids. Marvel has utterly stagnated as a result.

To be honest, I'm not sure if this is the case.

Comics tried to make a bunch of changes and fail, like DC rebooting itself, while Marvel also tries to make changes and keeps getting shitted on. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

But when these stories becomes movies, they sell. So why is that?

My only explanation that people simply are not interested in Comic Books as an entire medium at this point. One cannot explain to me why everyone loves Marvel/DC characters to the point of playing all games and watching all movies but would rather pirate some Isekai slop before touching a Comic Book given for free.

It would be really fucking hilarious if Marvel or DC randomly threw one of their characters to some Shonen Mangaka and suddenly started selling.

012yArthur0 posted...

To be honest, I'm not sure if this is the case.

Comics tried to make a bunch of changes and fail, like DC rebooting itself, while Marvel also tries to make changes and keeps getting shitted on. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

But when these stories becomes movies, they sell. So why is that?

My only explanation that people simply are not interested in Comic Books as an entire medium at this point. One cannot explain to me why everyone loves Marvel/DC characters to the point of playing all games and watching all movies but would rather pirate some Isekai slop before touching a Comic Book given for free.

It would be really fucking hilarious if Marvel or DC randomly threw one of their characters to some Shonen Mangaka and suddenly started selling.

The movies sell (well, debatable now. There's diminishing returns).

But it's not "they're just not interested in comics." Some indie comics are massive hits. People love manga (Which are comics). Graphic Novels are a big source of the market.

I don't think it's a mystery. Superhero comics are self cannibalizing messes where too much doesn't matter, they constantly hype up events to boost sales but alienate people who don't want to buy 20 comics for the full story, and they cannot advertise them in ways to tie them in with advertising.

Also, the studios are horrid to the actual creators, but that's not really related to sales, unfortunately. It'd be cute if they offered someone like Kohei Horikoshi a chance to write for DC but really, that's like asking a major league baseball player to bat for a minor league game. By sheer sales, he's far above them.