Current Events > Remember that weird bit in Metal Gear Solid 2? (Spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

They decided that Otacon for no particular reason had sex with his step-mom causing his dad to commit suicide and try to murder his sister along with him?

I get that they wanted trauma between the siblings and to continue the Metal Gear tradition of never having a good relationship with you dad.

But that's all they could come up with? It's so weird and seemingly pointless.

Especially considering the "This whole game is actually a simulation" thing they have going on. Why did the simulation need that?

Otacon's whole family is full of fucked up shit like that.

The entire Emmerich family is full of fucked up people

that's why I think Otacon is one of the worst characters in the series - like, even though he's a decent person on his own, each game he's a part of adds some weird romantic/sexual trauma to try to put him on par with Snake.

NGL, they should have thrown out the idea of Otacon's sister being a major character before they even got that far into the writing.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

NGL, they should have thrown out the idea of Otacon's sister being a major character before they even got that far into the writing.

I love Jennifer Hale but gaming did not need more escort or underwater levels

UnfairRepresent posted...

I love Jennifer Hale but gaming did not need more escort or underwater levels

There's that, and also who even cares? Who was just dying to know about Otacon's sister?

It worked when I was like 12. Kinda like Snake and Otacon's secret handshake (lol) and the DREAM TEAM shot where Snake, Otacon and Raiden all walk toward the camera in slow motion, but like... Kojima was not 12, so how did these things even happen?

Kojima treatment of women in the franchise is like how Araki treats dogs in Jojo.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Especially considering the "This whole game is actually a simulation" thing they have going on. Why did the simulation need that?

Weren't Otacon and Snake not explicitly part of the Simulation?

Also... I kinda like that bit of backstory. It's fucked up and weird but I dunno... it adds a weirdly realish element in that normal people can come from fucked up pasts.

AndyReklaw posted...

Weren't Otacon and Snake not explicitly part of the Simulation?

That's canon now because of MGS4

But at the time there was a big theory that the whole thing was a simulation, including the tanker section.

Snake doing things like literally appearing out of no where (twice), pointing out his infinite bandana, the Ray fight taking place in a location that doesn't make sense and looks identical to the VR background, all the NPCs in New York casually walking around not reacting to the fucking Death Star that just crashed into the city. Raidan only mentioning that he completed 300 missions in VR at the start if you played the Tanker section, the game showing clips of The Tanker section that never happened when Snake says "I bet VR was nothing like the real thing."

It's all up in the air because MGS2 is fucking bonkers but Kojima was clearly kicking around the "How do you know what you see is real?" balloon with MGS2 in a way he didn't with the other games. Not even 5.

AndyReklaw posted...

Weren't Otacon and Snake not explicitly part of the Simulation?

So

MGS4 had to clarify, but what even happened in MGS2 is left really unclear. There are lots of conflicting facts, and nobody ever really clarifies what actually happened. Then there are a lot of things that are kinda maybe hinted at, among them being the idea that the simulation is a lot more literal than is immediately obvious.

Raiden : I've had extensive training -- the kind that's indistinguishable from the real thing.

Pliskin : Like what?

Raiden : Sneaking mission 60, Weapons 80,

Pliskin : VR, huh.

Raiden : But realistic in every way.

Raiden: It's like being in a nightmare you can't wake up from!

Ames: Solid Snake did die. But he's also here in the Shell.

Snake: *points to bandana* Infinite ammo.

Raiden: I've gone through VR training of the Tanker mission before.

Snake: Yeah? Well I doubt it accurately simulates the events of that actual mission.

(Note that this Snake tells you a different ending to the story than we saw when we played the Tanker mission):

Raiden: How did you manage to get out?

Snake: Otacon managed to have a small boat ready for me.

Otacon: That was the easy part. The tough part was not getting dragged down with the sinking tanker -- small miracle when you think about it.

It was really left ambiguous which events really happened, which (if any) were simulations, which (if any) characters told the truth about what, or whether they even knew the truth to tell it. Which is the point of the story.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

Raiden: I've gone through VR training of the Tanker mission before.

Snake: Yeah? Well I doubt it accurately simulates the events of that actual mission.

That's because the official story of Snake's 'Tanker mission' was Snake blowing up an oil tanker as a terrorist, and in the cutscene they just used parts of the 'escape from the sinking tanker' that got cut out of the game because they couldn't make it fun.

Trumpo posted...

Kojima treatment of women in the franchise is like how Araki treats dogs in Jojo.

I do kinda like how Arakis reasoning for having villains constantly kill dogs is because he cant think of anything more evil or irredeemable

I also like how The Boss managed to be the coolest and most important badass character in the series.... And then had to get her tits out literally at the end of the game for no reason.

You were so close Kojima

UnfairRepresent posted...

I also like how The Boss managed to be the coolest and most important badass character in the series.... And then had to get her tits out literally at the end of the game for no reason.

You were so close Kojima

Kojima wanted one breast out right exposed.

Error1355 posted...

That's because the official story of Snake's 'Tanker mission' was Snake blowing up an oil tanker as a terrorist, and in the cutscene they just used parts of the 'escape from the sinking tanker' that got cut out of the game because they couldn't make it fun.

But he tells you yet a third version of the events. Remember, in the tanker mission we played, he drowns at the end, and Otacon was in the wrong place to extract him:

Otacon: Ill be waiting just past the Verrazano Bridge. You need to be off that ship by then.

Snake: Ill be in touch.

Otacon: Snake, are you in yet? Have you made it to the holds?

Snake: Its taking longer than I expected. Weve already passed the Verrazano Bridge.

Otacon: All right. Well use another recovery point.

Snake: They may be planning to change course.

Otacon: What?

Snake: The exits to the deck are all sealed.

Otacon: What are they planning?

Snake: If they get Metal Gear, were going right off the fringe.

It also shows Snake using a FAMAS which you can't get in the Tanker chapter.

Remember when Otacons sister was killed by a bisexual vampire?

fan357 posted...

Remember when Otacons sister was killed by a bisexual vampire?

She's like the only character in the entire franchise who actually stayed dead and didn't just turn up again later.

Baring random boss fights

UnfairRepresent posted...

She's like the only character in the entire franchise who actually stayed dead and didn't just turn up again later.

Baring random boss fights

There are plenty, unless I'm misunderstanding. Even being overly generous as what counts as a "random boss fight" and "turn up later."

Dr. Madnar
Dr. Marv
Donald Anderson
Dr. Clark
Kenneth Baker
Decoy Octopus
Peter Stillman
Huey Emmerich
Solidus Snake
EE, of course
Fortune
Sokolov
Strangelove
Coldman
Skullface
Armstrong

I mean was being faceitous but but Dr. Madnar and Sokolov do just turn up later.

Also anyone could be Decoy Octopus for all we know.

Maybe Venom Snake is Decoy Octopus.

IcyWind14 posted...

Kojima wanted one breast out right exposed.

I assume for the "symbolism" of her being a surrogate mother to Big Boss?

The Otacon stuff didnt age well. But its kind of funny when Kojima throws in some detail thats throwaway but deserves some explanation that he never gives.

UnfairRepresent posted...

I mean was being faceitous but but Dr. Madnar and Sokolov do just turn up later.

They do? Are you counting stuff like Portable Ops and Ghost Babel? Or did I just totally forget some major plot points?

UnfairRepresent posted...

Maybe Venom Snake is Decoy Octopus.

Mr. Wright, if this is another one of your bluffs, I remind you there is a penalty.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

They do? Are you counting stuff like Portable Ops and Ghost Babel? Or did I just totally forget some major plot points?

Dr. Madnar is the one who made Raiden a cyborg. He's still alive by the end of MGS4.

Solkolov is Portable Ops.

Kaldrenthebold posted...

I assume for the "symbolism" of her being a surrogate mother to Big Boss?

kojima: what is this symbolism you speak of i just wanted to see boobies

seriously kojima is a creep

UnfairRepresent posted...

Dr. Madnar is the one who made Raiden a cyborg. He's still alive by the end of MGS4.

Huh. I did a little fact checking and it looks like Dr. Madnar is in fact in MGS4.

I thought it was Doktor who performed his conversion, though.

Otacon is a horrible character

Just the one?

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

I thought it was Doktor who performed his conversion, though.

Doktor performed his conversion to a full body cyborg after Rising's prologue.

It's like this:

-Unknown Patriot scientists are responsible for turning Raiden into a cyborg initially.
-Madnar help maintained and worked on Raiden's body after he escaped the Patriots. In the original Solid Rising story, he'd have been responsible for creating Raiden's white MGS4 body, but now it's unknown if he made it or not since Solid Rising was cancelled.
-Doktor maintained Raiden during his time working for Maverick, including the creation and conversion to his new black body.

Kaldrenthebold posted...

I assume for the "symbolism" of her being a surrogate mother to Big Boss?

It was about her being a mother figure in general. Not just to naked Snake. She's referred as a mother many times throughout the game. Such as being "the mother of special forces", her relationship with Snake, and her being ocelots mother.

UnfairRepresent posted...

They decided that Otacon for no particular reason had sex with his step-mom causing his dad to commit suicide and try to murder his sister along with him?

I get that they wanted trauma between the siblings and to continue the Metal Gear tradition of never having a good relationship with you dad.

Probably the number 1 thing I will always remember about metal gear solid 2 to this day.

Just the fact they made that plot-line, introduced the emma character, and then kill her off just that quick.....almost like they are punishing her for being in that whole mess and to make otacon suffer even more.

Out of all of the deaths from the metal gear games emma's in particular just hits more cruel to me, lol.

IcyWind14 posted...

Doktor performed his conversion to a full body cyborg after Rising's prologue.

It's like this:

-Unknown Patriot scientists are responsible for turning Raiden into a cyborg initially.
-Madnar help maintained and worked on Raiden's body after he escaped the Patriots. In the original Solid Rising story, he'd have been responsible for creating Raiden's white MGS4 body, but now it's unknown if he made it or not since Solid Rising was cancelled.
-Doktor maintained Raiden during his time working for Maverick, including the creation and conversion to his new black body.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised a minor Metal Gear plot point is overly detailed, lol.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

I guess I shouldn't be surprised a minor Metal Gear plot point is overly detailed, lol.

"Hey Snake, what do you want for dinner tonight?"

"12 years ago in Sudan...."

Initial reaction reading the title

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/3/36d26258.jpg

Tbf, MGS2 came out when Jerry Springer was popular. And since Kojima was a huge fan of American cinema, I'm sure there were a few shows he also latched on to.