Current Events > How many people did the Democrats kill by caving?

(+) Yeah! (+)

While no one holds Chamberlain responsible for the Holocaust, he and his actions are not remembered fondly by history.

He has become a byword for weakness and appeasement in the face of evil.

EPR-radar posted...

By the fucked up logic of some in this topic (and the topic title), Neville Chamberlain was to blame for everyone the Nazis killed in WWII and the Holocaust.

Everyone is absurd hyperbole, but he absolutely bears responsibility for an enormous chunk of the 70 million deaths from WWII. If he grew a spine and dug his heels in, Hitler wouldn't have gotten nearly as far as he did. While we're talking about the Nazi body count, I wouldn't be surprised at all if deaths from this cave reach Holocaust numbers.

Republicans proved yet again that democrats are easier to groom than an already groomed beard.

Republicans can just stand still, yell 'death to ___' and democrats will gladly pull their pants down on the matter. Every fucking time.

Sayoria posted...

Republicans proved yet again that democrats are easier to groom than an already groomed beard.

The GOPedos do sure seem to love grooming.

ai123 posted...

While no one holds Chamberlain responsible for the Holocaust, he and his actions are not remembered fondly by history. He has become a byword for weakness and appeasement in the face of evil.

And for some of these Democrats, being remembered like Chamberlain is the best they can hope for - they might instead find themselves likened to Ptain.

I think we can be mad at the Dems for their performance on Sunday, but still be "WTF" at this topic, because Garioshi seems to view the Republican party as a natural disaster with no agency. Like, the Dems are the ones responsible, not the Republicans.

LightSnake posted...

I think we can be mad at the Dems for their performance on Sunday, but still be "WTF" at this topic, because Garioshi seems to view the Republican party as a natural disaster with no agency. Like, the Dems are the ones responsible, not the Republicans.

TC's response to the Chamberlain analogy is telling. Very telling.

LightSnake posted...

I think we can be mad at the Dems for their performance on Sunday, but still be "WTF" at this topic, because Garioshi seems to view the Republican party as a natural disaster with no agency. Like, the Dems are the ones responsible, not the Republicans.

The Republicans have agency. They use it, to a man, to maximize human suffering. They cannot be reasoned with Everybody knows this. I expect them to be evil. The job of the Democrats is to not give them an inch and wipe them off the board so hard that they can never hope to hold power ever again. If you give them an inch, that blood is on your hands.

Republican lawmakers have been acting in bad faith since at least the Obama years, and attempts at bipartisanship by the Democrats have always left egg on the face of the latter; it's frustrating to see a select few moderates and/or establishment lawmakers shrug and announce "surely they'll cooperate with us this time" when you know for a fact that Republicans are intentionally sabotaging government.

Is it all Democrats? Obviously not. But it's just enough to break ties and enact policy in a time where the opposition is 99.99% united. Following such a strong election season Democratic leadership should be cracking the whip and rallying their own unified front, openly supporting their constituents and members facing scrutiny over this shutdown.

It's more than fair to criticize the few defectors and the lack of party leadership when the consequence of both is the continued decline of our nation. Republicans are immune to the same criticism so levying it against them is wasted energy better spent on strategizing, campaigning, and searching for figureheads for the party.

Garioshi posted...

The Republicans have agency. They use it, to a man, to maximize human suffering. They cannot be reasoned with Everybody knows this. I expect them to be evil. The job of the Democrats is to not give them an inch and wipe them off the board so hard that they can never hope to hold power ever again. If you give them an inch, that blood is on your hands.

Garioshi, you seem to believe this is a boxing match or a sword duel and not dependent on people voting.

We lost in November. That means bad stuff is going to happen. and it doesn't really seem you understand that. Yes, caving was bad, but asking the entire federal work force to go without being paid indefinitely when federal workers predominantly skew Democrat wasn't going to be permanent.

I keep hearing "The Republicans were feeling the heat!" ....what was going to happen?There's no uprising coming. Elections aren't for another year. What was the endgame?

LightSnake posted...

I keep hearing "The Republicans were feeling the heat!" ....what was going to happen?There's no uprising coming. Elections aren't for another year. What was the endgame?

Endgame was keeping the ACA subsidies. The republicans were being blamed for the shut down, the dems were asking for very little, there was no reason to cave.

El_Dustino posted...

Endgame was keeping the ACA subsidies. The republicans were being blamed for the shut down, the dems were asking for very little, there was no reason to cave.

again, what does "being blamed" mean? There wasn't another election for over a year. The entire federal workforce isn't being paid and SNAP isn't being funded so the pressure is very asymmetric.

Was this done well? No. But at a certain point, the Republicans can keep refusing and being blamed isn't stopping that. They're always doing ridiculously unpopular things and hoping for the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3ywuv8lJMs

It means the dems have no reason to back off. The Republicans would be the ones having to answer for the pain and suffering that THEY are causing. The dems had no hand in any of the consequences.

El_Dustino posted...

It means the dems have no reason to back off. The Republicans would be the ones having to answer for the pain and suffering that THEY are causing. The dems had no hand in any of the consequences.

Here's a question: What does "being blamed" mean? What avenue was available to hold them accountable for it?

This also doesn't change a bit part of the equation: pain and suffering is happening and some don't want it to. Kaine has been a civil servant his entire career, I don't doubt he was at leaat partially motivated by a lot of federal workers in Virginia starting to reach the point of going into foreclosure

It means that they would have to answer for any consequences. More important, the dems were not being blamed, which means they would not have to answer for them, which is good because the dems have been in an optics black hole and need every win they can, or, to avoid every loss they can.

I feel for everyone suffering, my parents would have been in trouble had my state not stepped in with snap and I was prepared to have to financially support them (more than I do now), and I know this sounds callus and I don't want it to be but: sometimes you need to suffer a little in the short term to avoid massive suffering in the long term.

The SNAP recipients and federal workers were unfairly having to suffer for the Republicans and that is terrible, but now some 50K per year will be dying because the dems caved. By helping these people in the short term they have sentenced countless more to death.

And at the day the ddemocrats will be blamed for it. Which means they will suffer the consequences. Will this tank the midterms in 2 years? It's way too early to say that, but this is going to depress the hell out of Dem voters and potential dem voters and embolden Rep voters, as well as teach Senate Repubs that all they need to do is wait the dems out and they will cave, giving them less incentive to work with the dems.

El_Dustino posted...

It means that they would have to answer for any consequences. More important, the dems were not being blamed, which means they would not have to answer for them, which is good because the dems have been in an optics black hole and need every win they can, or, to avoid every loss they can.

Again...specifically.

What does this mean? An explanation. Let's agree the optics were awful (they were). When you say "Republicans will be blamed," what does this mean at all? What avenue is used to hold them accountable? Will the government be shut down until November 2026

I feel for everyone suffering, my parents would have been in trouble had my state not stepped in with snap and I was prepared to have to financially support them (more than I do now), and I know this sounds callus and I don't want it to be but: sometimes you need to suffer a little in the short term to avoid massive suffering in the long term.

Americans hate to suffer in any term. Which is now the great difficulty Trump has had, is many people are suffering.

The SNAP recipients and federal workers were unfairly having to suffer for the Republicans and that is terrible, but now some 50K per year will be dying because the dems caved. By helping these people in the short term they have sentenced countless more to death.

Personally, I'm blaming the Republicans more, myself. If they were not in power, this would not be happening. Something that, again, Garioshi has left out of the equation entirely. Also, it wasn't just "suffering," but there were very real chances that people would also be doing without SNAP, losing homes, etc.

And at the day the ddemocrats will be blamed for it. Which means they will suffer the consequences. Will this tank the midterms in 2 years? It's way too early to say that, but this is going to depress the hell out of Dem voters and potential dem voters and embolden Rep voters, as well as teach Senate Repubs that all they need to do is wait the dems out and they will cave, giving them less incentive to work with the dems.

I am not of the opinion this will be remembered much next year. But I keep hearing "People were blaming Republicans!"

Democrats literally shut the government down for the longest period in US history and. it didn't change much at all. There was no mechanism to remove Republicans from power or stop them being evil. That is what I simply don't get: we weren't on the cusp of victory and "people were blaming Republicans" just doesn't seem to end with anything becaue the election wasn't for over a year. At some point, we need to say concretely what we expect to happen, because "GOP caves on the ACA subsidies" wasn't happening

LightSnake posted...

Again...specifically.

What does this mean? An explanation. Let's agree the optics were awful (they were). When you say "Republicans will be blamed," what does this mean at all? What avenue is used to hold them accountable? Will the government be shut down until November 2026

So what I mean specifically is that democrats won't be seen as accountable for the suffering of the shutdown as they try to ensure that the ACA subsidies go through. Republicans are immune to the consequences of their action, so them being blamed unfortunately does not mean much outside of maybe turning a few of their voters against them, but it means the dems are able to continue the shutdown without the bad optics.

Americans hate to suffer in any term. Which is now the great difficulty Trump has had, is many people are suffering.

Personally, I'm blaming the Republicans more, myself. If they were not in power, this would not be happening. Something that, again, Garioshi has left out of the equation entirely. Also, it wasn't just "suffering," but there were very real chances that people would also be doing without SNAP, losing homes, etc.

I am not of the opinion this will be remembered much next year. But I keep hearing "People were blaming Republicans!"

Democrats literally shut the government down for the longest period in US history and. it didn't change much at all. There was no mechanism to remove Republicans from power or stop them being evil. That is what I simply don't get: we weren't on the cusp of victory and "people were blaming Republicans" just doesn't seem to end with anything becaue the election wasn't for over a year. At some point, we need to say concretely what we expect to happen, because "GOP caves on the ACA subsidies" wasn't happening

I don't think the GOP would willingly cave on the ACA subsidies. But in the face of a united Dem front, I do feel that the GOP's masters would push them to cave eventually because this shutdown going into the Thanksgiving/Holiday season would cost them a lot of money.

But they might get to vote on it now. Maybe the Republicans will finally see reason and bend the knee...

El_Dustino posted...

So what I mean specifically is that democrats won't be seen as accountable for the suffering of the shutdown as they try to ensure that the ACA subsidies go through. Republicans are immune to the consequences of their action, so them being blamed unfortunately does not mean much outside of maybe turning a few of their voters against them, but it means the dems are able to continue the shutdown without the bad optics.

The problem is "continuing the shutdown" puts it as no end in sight as Republicans dweren't going to cave. There is a point where things with a shutdown were bad and unsustainable and frankly, we were hitting it. I'm not sure accountability here means much a year before the actual election. Ar eoptics here back? Yes.

I don't think the GOP would willingly cave on the ACA subsidies. But in the face of a united Dem front, I do feel that the GOP's masters would push them to cave eventually because this shutdown going into the Thanksgiving/Holiday season would cost them a lot of money.

The GOP has one master and that's Trump. And he was telling them, repeatedly, not to cave. Indeed, he was pushing them to kill the filibuster for that.

Also, it's not 2012 anymore. The GOP aren't just corporate owned. Ideology is very important to them now. Especially when some of Trump's measures they champion are godawful for the economy and hurt everyone.

If Dems dont help reopen the govt then Trump will just illegally pay whoever he feels like paying. Hes already indicted hell do this with the military. Its a faster slide to totalitarianism.

bfslick50 posted...

If Dems dont help reopen the govt then Trump will just illegally pay whoever he feels like paying. Hes already indicted hell do this with the military. Its a faster slide to totalitarianism.

He was already doing that.

LightSnake posted...

The GOP has one master and that's Trump. And he was telling them, repeatedly, not to cave. Indeed, he was pushing them to kill the filibuster for that.

The GOP's master isn't Trump, it's the people who tell Trump what to say. I'd also say to let them nuke the filibuster. If they're gonna do what they want anyway, there's no reason for Dems to be complicit in it. Voters are morons and this is sadly good ammo for those trying to smear the party.

Despite this (so far) being a few Dems, not the party as a whole. I also think it's insane for one to say the Dems "assume full responsibility" when the GOP is literally the group pushing these cuts. The Dems that voted for this are complicit, but not totally responsible.

So right now the option in the poll that is winning is that the Dems killed at least 100 million people by caving? Really CE? LOL! I had a good laugh when I saw that. Hopefully most of those people were trolling.

But yeah. Dems needed to ensure at some point government workers get paid while Republicans don't give a f*** about government workers, so Dems probably had the weaker hand in this honestly. Probably for the best this didn't become a prolonged shutdown.

EPR-radar posted...

By the fucked up logic of some in this topic (and the topic title), Neville Chamberlain was to blame for everyone the Nazis killed in WWII and the Holocaust.

After all, as some would have to tell the tale to be consistent, Hitler and the Nazis were animals with no agency, so their (nonexistent) minders were really responsible.

To hell with that shit.

Exactly. The fact that some are actually defending "Dems take full responsibility" which would mean Republicans are blameless is a big part of the problem.

Its no wonder Republicans are shameless. Why have any when you can easily get even Dem leaning voters to put "full responsibility" (as several in this topic defend) on Democrats. Nevermind swing voters.

Hundreds of thousands.

Charged151 posted...

So right now the option in the poll that is winning is that the Dems killed at least 100 million people by caving? Really CE? LOL! I had a good laugh when I saw that. Hopefully most of those people were trolling.

the poll was created by one of the "republicans can do no wrong, because its the democrats fault for losing the election" kind of people. the kind of person who also shat on democrats during election season and said nobody should vote for them due to palestine.

the topic was never about accurately associating blame with the right people.

Charged151 posted...

So right now the option in the poll that is winning is that the Dems killed at least 100 million people by caving? Really CE? LOL! I had a good laugh when I saw that. Hopefully most of those people were trolling.

But yeah. Dems needed to ensure at some point government workers get paid while Republicans don't give a f*** about government workers, so Dems probably had the weaker hand in this honestly. Probably for the best this didn't become a prolonged shutdown.

Right now, with the worst health insurance system in the industrialized world, we have around 50,000 annual deaths due to a lack of adequate healthcare. About 20 million people are on Obamacare. What do you think is going to happen when those prices double or triple or quintuple? What's going to happen to their families? What about the knock-on effects? You simply do not comprehend the catastrophic scale of effect this is going to have for generations to come.

Garioshi posted...

You simply do not comprehend the catastrophic scale of effect this is going to have for generations to come.

you were told this was gonna happen during the election but at the time it was all about slacktivism protest voting

Rika_Furude posted...

you were told this was gonna happen during the election but at the time it was all about slacktivism protest voting

What the fuck are you talking about bro I voted for Kamala because she was clearly the better option

Garioshi posted...

Right now, with the worst health insurance system in the industrialized world, we have around 50,000 annual deaths due to a lack of adequate healthcare. About 20 million people are on Obamacare. What do you think is going to happen when those prices double or triple or quintuple? What's going to happen to their families? What about the knock-on effects? You simply do not comprehend the catastrophic scale of effect this is going to have for generations to come.

Yea its bad, but 7 Senators breaking ranks to let things return to how they were 2 decades ago turning into this is completely Democrats fault is absurd. Nor are you quantifying how many will die from the shutdown continuing for months.

bfslick50 posted...

Yea its bad, but 7 Senators breaking ranks to let things return to how they were 2 decades ago turning into this is completely Democrats fault is absurd. Nor are you quantifying how many will die from the shutdown continuing for months.

"Return to how things were 2 decades ago" is not accurate at all, people are in a much worse place economically since then, everything is way more expensive. This will kill many, many more than it would have 2 decades ago.

The shutdown continuing probably would kill people. That number would be far lower than Obama care basically being destroyed. We aren't going to get those subsidies back.

Garioshi posted...

What the fuck are you talking about bro I voted for Kamala because she was clearly the better option

were you one of those "fuck the dems, im gonna hold my nose and promote third parties while writing an entire paragraph about how much its the dems fault that the republicans are being evil and then just quietly say i voted for kamala to try and avoid criticism" people?

LightSnake posted...

The GOP has one master and that's Trump. And he was telling them, repeatedly, not to cave. Indeed, he was pushing them to kill the filibuster for that.

Also, it's not 2012 anymore. The GOP aren't just corporate owned. Ideology is very important to them now. Especially when some of Trump's measures they champion are godawful for the economy and hurt everyone.

I do not entirely agree. While Trump is a wild card, he is not the master of the Republican party. And while there are now way more ideological nazis, white nationalists, and other fascist demons than there were back in the neocon days, they all get their money from the same corporate donors and their ideology is accepted by the ruling class so long as it is profitable.

I simply do not believe that the Republicans would have just never backed down, and the damage that will be done as the result of this caving will be far worse than the damage that would have happened even if the shut down lasted into the new year.

El_Dustino posted...

I simply do not believe that the Republicans would have just never backed down, and the damage that will be done as the result of this caving will be far worse than the damage that would have happened even if the shut down lasted into the new year.

If the shutdown lasted til January youd see Trump effectively reopen the parts of government he cares about and a handful of Democrats would still be the ones to cave.

Trump has veto power and the Speaker of the House can ignore Senate bills if they want. A handful of Republicans breaking ranks isnt enough to reopen the government.

Rika_Furude posted...

were you one of those "fuck the dems, im gonna hold my nose and promote third parties while writing an entire paragraph about how much its the dems fault that the republicans are being evil and then just quietly say i voted for kamala to try and avoid criticism" people?

No? I was calling for Biden to drop out as early as February because he was obviously senile and apocalyptically unpopular and said I would take literally anyone else. Kamala was dead last on my list of replacements, but she was still an improvement and her picking Tim Walz genuinely got me excited for her. She was still inextricably tied to the genocide in Gaza and that can never be forgiven, but I felt much better about her ability to win and even got swept up a little bit in the hype. I criticized her plenty, especially when she refused to distance herself from Biden and caved to right-wing framing, but I was firmly in the camp that Kamala was the least worst option because it was blindingly obvious. For the record, I still would have voted for Biden if he wasn't replaced because he would still be the least worst option. I have never voted for a third party for any national election because I'm not stupid.

bfslick50 posted...

If the shutdown lasted til January youd see Trump effectively reopen the parts of government he cares about and a handful of Democrats would still be the ones to cave.

Trump has veto power and the Speaker of the House can ignore Senate bills if they want. A handful of Republicans breaking ranks cant reopen the government.

I think at a certain point the courts would step in regarding this, they already were, and that could actually potentially possibly make the Republicans face some of the consequences of their actions if they brazenly and repeatedly ignore court orders over and over again.

At this point it feels like people believe the dems should just always vote for the budget no matter how bad the bill is.

El_Dustino posted...

I think at a certain point the courts would step in regarding this, they already were, and that could actually potentially possibly make the Republicans face some of the consequences of their actions if they brazenly and repeatedly ignore court orders over and over again.

At this point it feels like people believe the dems should just always vote for the budget no matter how bad the bill is.

Republicans are already brazen enough to ignore court orders and the Supreme Court is content to rubber stamp everything Trump does.

The courts providing a pathway to keep some parts of the government effectively open helps Republicans outlast Dems because Trump is in control of which parts stay open.

So should the dems just vote for every Republican budget bill no matter what since shutdowns seemingly will not work?

El_Dustino posted...

So should the dems just vote for every Republican budget bill no matter what since shutdowns seemingly will not work?

The dems largely aren't voting for this. You can't blame the entire party for the actions of the most right-leaning Democrat Senators. But yea, some are going to prioritize keeping the government open because everytime it shutdowns the pain and problems for a lot of Americans multiply.

El_Dustino posted...

I think at a certain point the courts would step in regarding this, they already were, and that could actually potentially possibly make the Republicans face some of the consequences of their actions if they brazenly and repeatedly ignore court orders over and over again.

At this point it feels like people believe the dems should just always vote for the budget no matter how bad the bill is.

What about the past 10 months makes you believe that was anywhere in realm of possibility? They've been ignoring court orders since day one.

I swear, if Mario were a Democrat, CE would blame him for letting Peach get captured.

bfslick50 posted...

The dems largely aren't voting for this. You can't blame the entire party for the actions of the most right-leaning Democrat Senators. But yea, some are going to prioritize keeping the government open because everytime it shutdowns the pain and problems for a lot of Americans multiply.

Should those dems have caved or not?

El_Dustino posted...

Should those dems have caved or not?

Should federal workers be paid and SNAP benefits disbursed?

Unknown5uspect posted...

Should federal workers be paid and SNAP benefits disbursed?

They should be. But that is not what I was asking them.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

I swear, if Mario were a Democrat, CE would blame him for letting Peach get captured.

You forget to add the usuals would also make Bowser blameless for kidnapping Peach.

Eight Senators are not The Democrats.

El_Dustino posted...

Should those dems have caved or not?

I don't know. How many are going to die, especially children, in the next 3 months if SNAP recipients need to go 3 months without any support? If I knew that I'd have an easier time deciding. My gut is they shouldn't have caved but I see why they caved. Once it's gone it'll be harder to get them back health insurance, but at the price of getting people food for months... that's a steep price.

El_Dustino posted...

They should be. But that is not what I was asking them.

Okay then how long are you personally okay with those two things not happening? 3 months? 6? Till midterms?

Unknown5uspect posted...

Okay then how long are you personally okay with those two things not happening? 3 months? 6? Till midterms?

How many people are you okay with dying due to lack of healthcare?