Current Events > How many people did the Democrats kill by caving?

(+) Yeah! (+)

El_Dustino posted...

And people need healthcare or they will die.

Please read this chart until you understand it:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/6/6d16a198.jpg

It's called "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" if you would like to find more info to help.

El_Dustino posted...

You misunderstand. The Republicans are the ones doing the murdering. But due to this the dems have optically taken ownership of all the suffering during the shutdown and the results. How much you think that will affect them or the midterms is up to you, but they basically made themselves look pathetic at a time when they really need to not look pathetic.

Im only interested are you still claiming Dems take full responsibility for Healthcare or not. Effectively making Republicans blameless. Is this still your position?

DrizztLink posted...

Please read this chart until you understand it:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/6/6d16a198.jpg

It's called "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" if you would like to find more info to help.

Feels a little condescending.

Food is a more pressing need than healthcare yes.

But months of a lack of food will cause less death and suffering than years/lifetime of lack of healthcare.

The problem now is bad. But a much larger problem has been created.

asdf8562 posted...

Im only interested are you still claiming Dems take full responsibility for Healthcare or not. Effectively making Republicans blameless. Is this still your position?

In reality? No.

Optically? Yes, or that is how it will be seen.

Guess what unstable food supplies do to health outcomes.

Go on.

El_Dustino posted...

Feels a little condescending.

I wonder why.

Btw Im sure its more than just those 8. There are Im sure a few who would have voted yes if others hadnt gotten their hands dirty. I know at least one person changed their vote to no once the 8 required were guaranteed. Even so I still believe by and large those who voted no meant no and they are the same party too. And the Democrats in congress who will vote no when it passes are the party. And Democrats around the country saying this was a mistake are the party. And Democratic voters across the board angry with this decision including those on this board are the party.

DrizztLink posted...

Guess what unstable food supplies do to health outcomes.

Go on.

I wonder why.

Rude.

Garioshi posted...

Incalculably less, yes. I don't think you fully grasp how fucked a whole tenth of the population is now.

Because Republicans were elected. Garioshi, that is the main thing you don't seem to put out there. You spend MUCH more time attacking Dems for how they react to what the GOP do

El_Dustino posted...

In reality? No.

Ok.

Optically? Yes, or that is how it will be seen.

Optics only become a problem when you and a chorus of others pile on by regurgitating stuff like post #4.

If you understand the reality that Dems should not take full responsibility for something the entire Republican party did, and only 8 Democrats did.... maybe dont complain about optics while you actively and intentionally perpetuate said optics as the reality.

El_Dustino posted...

Rude.

If "explaining things politely" actually worked, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Answer the question.

asdf8562 posted...

Ok.

Optics only become a problem when you pile on by regurgitating stuff like post #4.

If you understand the reality that Dems should not take full responsibility for something the entire Republican party did, and only 8 Democrats did.... maybe dont complain about optics while you actively and intentionally perpetuate said optics.

CE will have no affect on the wider optics. My venting here because I am angry that 8 dems took the "more death" option is not going to seep out of these walls and infect people. This is a nightmare scenario already, and if the dems did not want it then the leadership should have kept their senators in line.

There is no good way to spin this and no point in trying to spin it good without looking bad by extension.

It's bad now.

DrizztLink posted...

If "explaining things politely" actually worked, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Answer the question.

Lack of food leads to worse health leads to death and suffering.

There is death and suffering in both options yes I am aware.

The chosen path leads to more death and suffering. That's the long and short of it.

And you're wrong.

Is the thing.

DrizztLink posted...

And you're wrong.

Is the thing.

Elaborate.

El_Dustino posted...

CE will have no affect on the wider optics

This narrative that CE has no affect on the wider optics has been and always will be a terrible defense.

Gamefaqs doesnt exist in a bubble. And the things said here, arent sentiments only seen here.

Its the similar argument that tries to defend not voting or going 3rd party. Such sentiments dont exist in a vacuum of thought. When a collective is going around spouting/doing this, it can most definitely resonate to have a consequence as a whole.

Those false optics you insinuated as reality in Post #4 can easily be found all across left and Dem leaning spaces. Nevermind swing voters who arent committed voters to one party or the other.

El_Dustino posted...

Elaborate.

You die from lack of food way faster than from lack of healthcare, for one.

asdf8562 posted...

This narrative that CE has no affect on the wider optics has been and always will be a terrible defense.

Gamefaqs doesnt exist in a bubble. And the things said here, arent sentiments only seen here.

Its the similar argument that tries to defend not voting or going 3rd party. Such sentiments dont exist in a vacuum of thought. When a collective is going around spouting/doing this, it can most definitely resonate to have a consequence as a whole.

Those false optics you insinuated as reality in Post #4 can easily be found all across left and Dem leaning spaces. Nevermind swing voters who arent committed voters to one party or the other.

How should we react to this?

El_Dustino posted...

You misunderstand. The Republicans are the ones doing the murdering. But due to this the dems have optically taken ownership of all the suffering during the shutdown and the results. How much you think that will affect them or the midterms is up to you, but they basically made themselves look pathetic at a time when they really need to not look pathetic.

TC never seems to hold the Republicans accountable, because he gets his sources from ostensible progressives that work for right wing billionaires and do nothing but spread "Dems Suck" messages to help them

LightSnake posted...

TC never seems to hold the Republicans accountable, because he gets his sources from ostensible progressives that work for right wing billionaires and do nothing but spread "Dems Suck" messages to help them

Which progressive sources?

El_Dustino posted...

How should we react to this?

Ive already exhausted where I stand on how I think people should react to the 8 Democrats and 52 Republicans.

At this point, Im more invested in those saying, "the dems assumed full responsibility for the deaths that will be taking place."

If you agree in reality that original statement isnt true/reality, but want to critique optics.... intentionally ignoring reality to say the quote above is perpetuating said optic as if it was reality.

El_Dustino posted...

Which progressive sources?

Klippenstein, Grim, the Intercept, etc.

asdf8562 posted...

At this point, Im more invested in those saying, "the dems assumed full responsibility for the deaths that will be taking place."

This seems like an odd place to put your investment. I have already admitted that I am simply crestfallen beyond belief with the dems.

El_Dustino posted...

Less than the number of people who will die due to the ACA subsidies lapsing.

It's not good. It's terrible. But caving is going to do far more harm than good.

The thing is there's a longer delay in losing healthcare to death than there is in losing food to death. As bad as losing healthcare is, there's a hope that Democrats can retake the government and bring it back healthcare. I don't think the number to die in the next year without healthcare is as high as the number to die without food support in the next year. If Democrats can't retake the government then there is no scenario in which ACA is still in place in 5 years even if they hold strong now, so we have to plan on a strategy where we can retake the government.

LightSnake posted...

Because Republicans were elected. Garioshi, that is the main thing you don't seem to put out there. You spend MUCH more time attacking Dems for how they react to what the GOP do

Christ, what do you want from me? Do you want me to preface every single thing I say with "the Republicans are evil and they hate life and they want you dead" just so you know that I know that? How many times have I said this to you? If I had a pro-GOP agenda, do you think I would be criticizing the Democrats like this? What kind of master plan do you think I have to make the Democrats unpopular? They're already as unpopular as they could possibly be!

Also, I'd like to leave this here:
https://x.com/emrwilkins/status/1987896392849748040?s=20
It's not just 8 Senators. Stop saying it's just 8 Senators.

So now you take the guy at his word?

Garioshi posted...

Also, I'd like to leave this here:
https://x.com/emrwilkins/status/1987896392849748040?s=20
It's not just 8 Senators. Stop saying it's just 8 Senators.

This was glaringly obvious to anyone that bothered to actually pay attention to the vote.

Funny enough, this is also the thing asdf was just yesterday saying was fake and vibes.

DrizztLink posted...

So now you take the guy at his word?

Do I need to hold your hand and go through exactly why lying is advantageous in some circumstances and not others?

...so do I just post an Uno reverse card here, or what, because this fruit is hanging pretty fuckin' low.

Garioshi posted...

Christ, what do you want from me? Do you want me to preface every single thing I say with "the Republicans are evil and they hate life and they want you dead" just so you know that I know that? How many times have I said this to you? If I had a pro-GOP agenda, do you think I would be criticizing the Democrats like this? What kind of master plan do you think I have to make the Democrats unpopular? They're already as unpopular as they could possibly be!

I don't think you have a pro-GOP agenda. I think you listen to people who do too much and don't relize it because it's being couched in progressive trappings. You do much more attacking the Democrats than the GOP, whether you realize it or not

Garioshi posted...

Do I need to hold your hand and go through exactly why lying is advantageous in some circumstances and not others?

So you just pick and choose based on what you want to hear, then go "He was lying all the other times, but not now!"

LightSnake posted...

I don't think you have a pro-GOP agenda. I think you listen to people who do too much and don't relize it because it's being couched in progressive trappings. You do much more attacking the Democrats than the GOP, whether you realize it or not

I genuinely do not know what to say to you aside of "the highest order of contempt for the GOP is implied". If the Democrats fail to adequately fight back against an administration that wants to usher an era of unparalleled suffering into the world, they deserve to be criticized for it. I'm not some unwitting tool of propagandists and it's frankly insulting that you think I have no agency in what I do. If you have a problem with what I'm saying beyond "you're attacking Democrats too much", then say it.

Garioshi posted...

I'm not some unwitting tool of propagandists and it's frankly insulting that you think I have no agency in what I do.

You certainly do a great job of giving that implication, and that's assuming the best case scenario for why you post how you do.

Garioshi posted...

I genuinely do not know what to say to you aside of "the highest order of contempt for the GOP is implied". If the Democrats fail to adequately fight back against an administration that wants to usher an era of unparalleled suffering into the world, they deserve to be criticized for it. I'm not some unwitting tool of propagandists and it's frankly insulting that you think I have no agency in what I do. If you have a problem with what I'm saying beyond "you're attacking Democrats too much", then say it.

Here's the problem that you seem to be missing.

It's fine to criticize Democrats for their fallings. The problem is when criticism of Democrats is all you do. A big part of why Trump won was that people just didn't talk about criticism towards Trump. Everything was focused on the faults of Biden and Harris. Then you have a media also wrapping things up to downplay the things Trump was saying while overanalyzing any possible critique you could have about Biden or Harris.

This is what the average voter sees. They see people are upset with Democrats and have no issues with Trump and then proceed to vote Trump. Then we're in this mess of Trump and the republican party attacking rights and trying to take away people's safety nets and we're back to complaining about Democrats when none of this would be happening in the first if Republicans were not put into power.

And as I said earlier, it's weird that you would make a poll about how many people Democrats are going to kill as a result of ACA subsidies being removed which is only happening due to Republicans are in power, but did not have the same energy when Trump was fighting to not pay out SNAP.

Garioshi posted...

Also, I'd like to leave this here:
https://x.com/emrwilkins/status/1987896392849748040?s=20
It's not just 8 Senators. Stop saying it's just 8 Senators.

Who other than the 8 voted to end the shutdown?

havean776 posted...

Who other than the 8 voted to end the shutdown?

Does it matter when no matter who it was there was always going to be 8? The ones that actually pulled the trigger were just the safest.

Garioshi posted...

I'm not some unwitting tool of propagandists and it's frankly insulting that you think I have no agency in what I do.

Erm...
Didn't you just post a twitter that said "MANY PEOPLE are saying that more dems where secretly planning to end the shutdown! No evidence just trust us. Lots of peopl! Big people! Believe me!"

A_Good_Boy posted...

Does it matter when no matter who it was there was always going to be 8? The ones that actually pulled the trigger were just the safest.

Yeah if you are saying that many Dems where planning on voting to end the shutdown it does matter who these Dems where. But I suspect they do not exist.

havean776 posted...

Yeah if you are saying that many Dems where planning on voting to end the shutdown it does matter who these Dems where. But I suspect they do not exist.

Not certain they do not exist?

A_Good_Boy posted...

Not certain they do not exist?

Who are they?

havean776 posted...

Who are they?

I'm not sure. Do you think it's noteworthy that time after time there's always a convenient amount of dissenters on the Dems side that enables Republicans to get away with whatever they want but that issue never seems to occur on the Republican side?

havean776 posted...

Erm...
Didn't you just post a twitter that said "MANY PEOPLE are saying that more dems where secretly planning to end the shutdown! No evidence just trust us. Lots of peopl! Big people! Believe me!"

If you had the ability to read, you'd see that that is a direct quote from Tim Kaine. Is HE a GOP propagandist I'm unwittingly falling for?

Garioshi posted...

If you had the ability to read, you'd see that that is a direct quote from Tim Kaine. Is HE a GOP propagandist I'm unwittingly falling for?

You ever think he might just be saying whatever to try to take some of the heat off of himself?

You ever think?

"democrats are all ratfucking liars unless they say one thing that confirms my preconceived notions"

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/e00e7c9c.jpg

DrizztLink posted...

"democrats are all ratfucking liars unless they say one thing that confirms my preconceived notions"

And they're also above reproach unless someone says something I don't like.

A_Good_Boy posted...

I'm not sure.

Interesting.

Garioshi posted...

If you had the ability to read, you'd see that that is a direct quote from Tim Kaine. Is HE a GOP propagandist I'm unwittingly falling for?

Who are the Dems that where secretly planning to end the shutdown?

havean776 posted...

Interesting

Sure is. Why do you think that keeps happening?

A_Good_Boy posted...

Sure is. Why do you think that keeps happening?

I'm not sure why you beleive any lie that comes out as long as it's anti-dem. Only you can answer that question.
Who where these secret Dems that where planning on voting to end the shutdown?

havean776 posted...

Who are the Dems that where secretly planning to end the shutdown?

I dunno, ask him. Am I supposed to have perfect knowledge on this?