Current Events > Kotaku Article Believes Clair Obscur Should NOT Be Up for Indie Game Awards

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://kotaku.com/indie-game-awards-iga-igf-gdc-clair-obscur-expedition-33-2000644070

So I briefly skimmed the first like, 3 sentences. (Its 4:50 AM eastern time and I just took my pain meds before laying down. I am very lethargic, head in the clouds and my attention span is shot right now). Is their argument basically "because the game is too popular a indie game compared to the SMALLER, smaller indie games and that a ton of reviewers gave the game love already, this is why it should not count for these awards." Thats the gist right?

If so, that is pretty stupid.

Mad-Dogg posted...

If so, that is pretty stupid.

Par the course for Kotaku, to be honest

I read on Kotaku that it was better than Civ 5 with the Brave New World expansion pack.

Mad-Dogg posted...

If so, that is pretty stupid.

Kotaku!

Mad-Dogg posted...

Is their argument basically "because the game is too popular a indie game compared to the SMALLER, smaller indie games and that a ton of reviewers gave the game love already, this is why it should not count for these awards." Thats the gist right?

No, it's talking about how/how much the game was funded. They're pointing out E33 is a multimillion dollar game and actually has a publisher. They're arguing that at a certain point of success, even if a game has a small team like Silksong, they should withdraw themselves from consideration for indie rewards because they should be spotlights on smaller, less budgeted titles.

I'm not sure if I agree, but it's not a crazy opinion to have.

AuthenticZac posted...

Par the course for Kotaku, to be honest

We could read the article instead of making up a reason to be mad about it.

Ok thanks for the update

Personally, I believe Clair Obscur has every right to be included.

Ok thanks for the update.

Humble_Novice posted...

Personally, I believe Clair Obscur has every right to be included.

Ehhhh

I don't necessarily agree that a game shouldn't be included just because its previous game was successful, but I kind of agree that E33 shouldn't be on there. It has a publisher. It's not indie by any stretch of the imagination. Kotaku is right here, they're just a lower budget game from a smaller studio. Not indie.

Mad-Dogg posted...

If so, that is pretty stupid.

It's because it was developed by a huge team with a large budget, a publisher, and is what used to be called an "AA" game. It's a fair consideration and they acknowledge that "indie" is category that's a bit harder to definitively nail down these days.

> reading embracer slop in 2025

pegusus123456 posted...

Kotaku is right here, they're just a lower budget game from a smaller studio. Not indie.

"Indie" is a mixed bag. Dave the Diver is classified as indie, but it had a rather large budget and was published by Nexon (Technically Mintrocket, but that's a subsidiary of Nexon).

pegusus123456 posted...

It has a publisher.

Indie games have publishers. E33's developer (Kepler Interactive) has directly published 11 games. Last year's winner, Balatro, was published by Playstack. Who have published 22 games.

Why are you still reading Kotaku in the year of our lord 2025?

008Zulu posted...

Indie games have publishers. E33's developer (Kepler Interactive) has directly published 11 games. Last year's winner, Balatro, was published by Playstack. Who have published 22 games.

To reinforce this, Dredge won game of the year (IGN) in 2023, and it was published by Team17, who have been publishing games for decades.

Trelve posted...

Why are you still reading Kotaku in the year of our lord 2025?

Because TC seems to spend most of his time scouring Twitter for something to rage about.

AuthenticZac posted...

"Indie" is a mixed bag. Dave the Diver is classified as indie, but it had a rather large budget and was published by Nexon (Technically Mintrocket, but that's a subsidiary of Nexon).

008Zulu posted...

Indie games have publishers. E33's developer (Kepler Interactive) has directly published 11 games. Last year's winner, Balatro, was published by Playstack. Who have published 22 games.

AuthenticZac posted...

To reinforce this, Dredge won game of the year (IGN) in 2023, and it was published by Team17, who have been publishing games for decades.

I don't know why y'all think naming examples of other games that probably shouldn't be considered indie is supporting the argument that E33 is indie

OneSpookyGirl posted...

It's because it was developed by a huge team

33 people, later increased to 50. Anyone else in the credits is either an actor or a contractor.

OneSpookyGirl posted...

with a large budget

Budget is unknown but estimated to be less than $30 million predominantly from venture capital.

That is, admittedly, much higher budget than most indie games, but some order indie favorites have had pretty big budgets before.

Hades 1: $15 million budget.
Palworld: $6.7 million

The word indie though is vague as fuck. I think strongbad has the right of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjwlrvcKcfI

Tyranthraxus posted...

That is, admittedly, much higher budget than most indie games, but some order indie favorites have had pretty big budgets before.

Hades 1: $15 million budget.

FWIW, this article does mention Supergiant as one of the devs they think should bow out of indie game awards.

pegusus123456 posted...

I don't know why y'all think naming examples of other games that probably shouldn't be considered indie is supporting the argument that E33 is indie

"Shouldn't" according to who? Because those other games were nominated by a collection of industry experts (a panel of over a hundred in Keighley's award show). So if they can be nominated and win indie game of the year, there's no reason E33 shouldn't as well.

dont really care what kotaku says, but theres an easy way to determine if its indie or what

what was the budget, what was the size of the development team, and who were the developers employed by

dave the diver is not classified as indie

Rika_Furude posted...

dave the diver is not classified as indie

2023
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/b0c4fc28.jpg

AuthenticZac posted...

2023
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/b0c4fc28.jpg

The CEO and director disagrees with the Indie tag. It's not Indie just because it's 2D and had only a few people working on it.

Its a loaded term. Some people think it simply means creative freedom from a publisher. Others think its about budget. Theyre both right.

But once you have a 30+ person dev team then youre talking a pretty sizable budget that usually is funded externally somehow. At that point youre usually not independently operating. Even if its crowd sourced

Rika_Furude posted...

The CEO and director disagrees with the Indie tag.

The creator of GIF also says the format should be pronounced gif instead of gif, and I think most people ignore him >_>

Again, judgement by council. The people running the awards shows have also said that they have a broader definition of what makes an indie

So, I think its a fair debate and discussion about is that game truly independent or is it not. You can argue it either way. Its independent in spirit and that its a small game with aI dont know what the budget isrelatively small budget, but its from a larger entity whereas there are other games on that list from much smaller studios. ~ Keighley

AuthenticZac posted...

The creator of GIF also says the format should be pronounced gif instead of gif, and I think most people ignore him >_>

Again, judgement by council. The people running the awards shows have also said that they have a broader definition of what makes an indie

The main reason I don't consider dave the diver indie myself is because it had the backing of a big, established development firm. I'd say it has the "spirit" of an indie game, but the dave devs are part of a developer firm thats just too big.

This is like the P2W argument all over again, everyone has their own definition and will die on that hill.

Indie is getting harder to define these days. Like Baldur's Gate 3 is technically an indie title but that had a AAA budget.

Ultimately, I don't agree with Kotaku (as usual), I think E33 ticks enough indie boxes to count.

Tyranthraxus posted...

33 people, later increased to 50. Anyone else in the credits is either an actor or a contractor.

Regardless of where E33 lands on someone's personal spectrum for an "indie game", it is wildly disingenuous and misleading (speaking in general, not at you, specifically) to tout this game as being made by a small team of 30 people framed as one of its great virtues, when hundreds of other people worked on it. And not just token outsourcing, like QA or whatever, but whole animation and music teams and more. The media do this with other games too, like Balatro (much to Localthunk's chagrin), and pretend that hiring people for whatever reason, doesn't "count" and push the narrative of the helpless underdog fighting against all odds and the world. It leads to detrimental misconceptions and expectations for consumers (I'm sure some publishers, too) and a lot of these devs don't actually like these myths being spread around.

I remember people saying Dave the Diver shouldn't be indie back when that was a thing, for what it's worth.

It feels like we need more categories at this point. The budgets and development teams of AAA games have grown so large that a single category encompassing everything else simply covers too broad a spectrum. I would like to see something like a AA game award so that titles like E33 can get recognized for being made without AAA resources without crowding out the super small-scale projects.

Ivynn posted...

Indie is getting harder to define these days.

It always has been. It has been a vibes-based thing for decades.

For instance, Sonic Adventure 2 didn't have a budget, and it had a permanent development team of ~10 guys. Even for the time it would have been considered an indie game by any metric if you stripped away the "Sonic" from the title. That title, however, has pulled some pretty extremely heavy work and I doubt you could find a single person who would call it an indie title sheerly because of the name.

pegusus123456 posted...

Ehhhh

I don't necessarily agree that a game shouldn't be included just because its previous game was successful, but I kind of agree that E33 shouldn't be on there. It has a publisher. It's not indie by any stretch of the imagination. Kotaku is right here, they're just a lower budget game from a smaller studio. Not indie.

using this logic, no indie game with a publisher is an indie game

this means that, y'know, games developed by a single person, so stardew valley or balatro or vampire survivors...aren't indie games.

I actually kind of agree with them on that. Like imagine something small time like Balatro having to compete with something like expedition 33 as an indie title (yes I know they released in different years). They're night and day in terms of production levels. There should be more of a distinction.

NoxObscuras posted...

I actually kind of agree with them on that. Like imagine something small time like Balatro having to compete with something like expedition 33 as an indie title (yes I know they released in different years). They're night and day in terms of production levels. There should be more of a distinction.

But according to the writer's criteria Balatro doesn't qualify as a indie either.

MNThunder posted...

But according to the writer's criteria Balatro doesn't qualify as a indie either.

Because of the publisher thing? They clearly said that's what it used to mean, but not anymore

NoxObscuras posted...

Because of the publisher thing? They clearly said that's what it used to mean, but not anymore

Throughout the article he makes it clear that if a game isn't self published he doesn't think it's a true indie.

I could possibly see their argument for not including Clair Obscur shouldn't be included. It's budget and team do far outsize their competition. I'm not sure I agree, but I can see the argument.

I think him looping in Team Cherry at the end though falls super flat and undermines his argument as a whole. Like yes, Hallow Knight and Silksong are extremely successful, but the games are explicitly indie. And when you start saying they shouldn't be part of the awards it comes off less that you care about the game's development and more that you are just subjectively ruling out games because they are too successful.

Indie is a hard term to define, and I don't envy those who have to come up with one, but I think we should all agree that an Indie award that looks to invalidate success rather celebrate it is a bad idea.

And we really got to stop treating game publishing like it's the same as music publishing and using it as part of the definition. They are completely different mediums and publishing works very different ways.

Compsognathus posted...

I could possibly see their argument for not including Clair Obscur shouldn't be included. It's budget and team do far outsize their competition. I'm not sure I agree, but I can see the argument.

I think him looping in Team Cherry at the end though falls super flat and undermines his argument as a whole. Like yes, Hallow Knight and Silksong are extremely successful, but the games are explicitly indie. And when you start saying they shouldn't be part of the awards it comes off less that you care about the game's development and more that you are just subjectively ruling out games because they are too successful.

Indie is a hard term to define, and I don't envy those who have to come up with one, but I think we should all agree that an Indie award that looks to invalidate success rather celebrate it is a bad idea.

Supergiant games as well. Just because Hades was a success doesn't automatically make them not a indie studio.

I think the Indie title should be for actual Indies. Just because a game wasn't made by one of the huge, AAA studios does not make it Indie. Clair is too big.

Compsognathus posted...

I could possibly see their argument for not including Clair Obscur shouldn't be included. It's budget and team do far outsize their competition. I'm not sure I agree, but I can see the argument.

I think him looping in Team Cherry at the end though falls super flat and undermines his argument as a whole. Like yes, Hallow Knight and Silksong are extremely successful, but the games are explicitly indie. And when you start saying they shouldn't be part of the awards it comes off less that you care about the game's development and more that you are just subjectively ruling out games because they are too successful.

Indie is a hard term to define, and I don't envy those who have to come up with one, but I think we should all agree that an Indie award that looks to invalidate success rather celebrate it is a bad idea.

And we really got to stop treating game publishing like it's the same as music publishing and using it as part of the definition. They are completely different mediums and publishing works very different ways.

Yeah, I get where they're coming from, but you don't want to make an implicit distinction that indie means "games that don't have mass appeal" because that just makes it sound like indie games are expected to be lower quality, which clearly doesn't have to be the case. It's not Sandfall's fault that E33 cooked too hard that it can stand with products from major developers. They were recruiting people from Reddit and Soundcloud, that's as "indie" as you're going to get.

Broken clock syndrome for Koaku.

Clair Obscur isn't an indie game, it is an AA game. If you are going to include Clair Obscur as an indie game that basically means everything besides the big bloated AAA games are indie games.