Lurker > Kenri

Not_an_Owl posted...

You're not answering the question. By your own morals, was owning slaves when it was legal to do so morally acceptable? Was fighting against the practice selfish?

he wouldn't even answer if he'd save the life of a guy who illegally cured cancer and that was a total softball question, you think he'll answer this? lmao
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MenuWars posted...

I think if you're actively advocating for bonuses for (group) then you should be honest about it when trying to say you're trying to balance the scales because you believe systemic oppression is responsible for the situation they find themselves in. Calling it equality, is, and yes I know semantics but honesty is a good thing, a lie... because just like there's lazy white people, there's lazy black people and adjusting scores and metrics can invalidate any progress.

Everyone is just as likely to be as intelligent as everyone else. I believe that. So cooking the books in exams merely feels like a slap in the face, you're basically saying hey, you're not as intelligent so you need the boost, but we want you anyway... and that's about as racist or sexist as you get.

I mean, I think it depends on if equality is the process or the goal (which, I guess is semantics like you said). If it's the goal, you gotta get there somehow. If you want two people to end a game of golf with the same score, you might have to give someone a handicap, you know?

Now, do you cook the books in an exam or hire people who are unqualified or whatever? Hell no, you address societal factors earlier than that so nobody's at a disadvantage going into an exam or interview just because of their skin color or gender or whatever.

(Our society doesn't really want to address inequality, though, so it's easier to do it the other way, which doesn't really solve anything.)
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Everyone in America has the right to life and freedom

are you sure you actually believe this
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Corrik posted...

Kenri, you are saying if someone just murdered 4 kids and if someone who just cured cancer are on a cliff, you would flip a coin to see who you save because the one person's life isn't worth more than the other????

Nope, I'm saying I'd save the guy who just cured cancer, even if curing cancer was illegal and murder was legal. What would you do in that situation?


Eddv posted...

Legalism is a legitimate moral philosophy - I understand that its not for everyone, but the idea that if something was agreed upon enough as bad to be illegal that is also immoral is an idea that exists and has for centuries.

There are lots of legitimate moral philosophies that are also abhorrent, so *shrug*
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MenuWars posted...

See I only believe in privilege on a case by case basis. That's somewhere me and the left don't align, the right attacks with it bs memes and rhetoric so I don't align with them either though, so I'm left in the middle going, how can you judge someone just because of their race and gender, isn't that the very definition of racism and sexism? You can attribute power to the powerful sure, systemic oppression because the courts are mostly ruled by old white wealthy guys. We agree. But trying to say someone who is white and homeless faces more oppression than someone who is black and homeless generally doesn't compute, they're both treated like shit by society.

Whereas I've led a pretty privileged life, I know those around me who are orphans, black people who have better lifestyles than me, indians who are rich beyond belief (those textile companies my dad used to sell to were dens of inequity, it was insane) none of it really computes when you just take a look around you.

If you go case-by-case it's not really about privilege anymore, I don't think. It's about societal power and probability and how e.g. a black homeless man is likely to be treated worse than the exact same person if he was white, even if the white guy is also treated like trash. Are there exceptions to all of it? Yeah but that's kind of missing the point -- the fact that there are "exceptions" at all is worrisome because it means there is a general trend.


MenuWars posted...

Equality is in providing someone the same chances as everyone else. Giving everyone the same thing is socialism.

I think we need something between "the same chances" and "just give everyone the same everything". But I'm also pretty much a socialist in a lot of respects so lol


Metal_DK posted...

Maybe the case now, but throughout the first 190,000 years of human evolution it was the case. Maybe in the last 10,000 or so its been changing, but not really even for most of the ~10,000ish years of civilizations.

Nah, even if we go back to hunter/gatherers, women were still providing (by... hunting and gathering) and protecting (part of being a mother and propagating the species, yes?).


Metal_DK posted...

Well first off, women's happiness has been declining overall fwiw. Also my argument is because men only get 2 options, they are more likely to be aggressive, fearful, etc, all which CAN be harnessed in many ways. I mean haven't studies shown that all these CEOs/inventors/etc all tend to have high neurosis? The become so obsessed with status and power that it consumes them to 80+ hour weeks. This seems way more common in men, probably because, like i said, men get 2 options. Work or prison.

I agree that this sounds like a problem even if I'm not necessarily on board with all the causality you're proposing here. Do you have a solution in mind?
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Corrik posted...

Kenri posted...

Drug addicts are just normal people like you and me who ended up with some problem (chronic pain, headaches, insomnia, depression, etc) and decided to self-medicate. There's absolutely no reason in my mind to dedicate less resources to them than anyone else, and maybe some reasons to dedicate more (e.g. if allocation is need-based).

Or we could all follow the teachings of Jesus who I'm pretty sure said "yeah you should just let drug users all die lmao fuck 'em" verbatim.

You are rationalizing. Also wrong in many instances.

Drug addicts are wrong. Not debatable. Does not matter how you got there. There is correcy methods to dealing with your pain. You are choosing illegal methods which also basically support drug dealers and give them incentive to continue to peddle drugs moreso to others.

If no one bought illegal drugs, they wouldn't sell it. It wouldn't propogate. The fact is anyone using heroin has done something illegal and has helped contribute to the drug state of society. It is basically an endorsement and monetary support of the illegal crime cycle.

No.

These people should not be worth more than others who do not commit crimes. You are responsible for your actions. These people are making the wrong choices, knowingly.

I literally do not give a single shit if something is legal or illegal, that factors 0% into my morals and beliefs about saving people's lives. Why does it factor into yours?


charmander6000 posted...

The sad thing is mental health is rarely cared about in our society. If it were these people would be placed as a top priority among patients without a current life-threatening illness/injury

Yeah it's truly depressing (uh, no pun intended). It seems like even the mental health care we do have is more about getting someone functional enough to work again, not helping or curing them.
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Metal_DK posted...

The male gender role throughout history has pretty much been the same thing. Protect and provide. Primarily for women and children, but also for your fellow man

That's very very simplified, to a point where I think it's just a human role and not a man's.


Metal_DK posted...

Women, at least post WW2, now have 3 options. Work, prison, stay at home wife/mother. Men still only get 2.

Well, by your own argument, isn't this partially because they wouldn't be happy staying at home? You can pretty much rule out prison for the same reason.
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MenuWars posted...

Yet men's mental health has been abandoned for decades, cultural appropriation is a one way street, diversity without qualification can have a negative impact to those who have the qualifications and are shunned.

It's a very one sided argument, and the opposite is just as bad. So why are we not looking for middle ground where everyone benefits?

Do you not think there's a duality to the mob mentality? Do you think it is all progressive and good? There is no room for improvement?

Our mental health care in the US (and likely lots of other places but I'm not as informed about the rest of the world) sucks for everyone, yes including men for sure.

Cultural appropriation is a one way street because it's power related, though I think it could be two way if we were talking, like, Chinese culture and Mexican culture in the US or something? If white people are involved it's one way because of power dynamics. This is, like, central to cultural appropriation, so maybe you just disagree with the whole concept.

Diversity without qualification I haven't seen evidence for.

Yes, we should make a road where everyone benefits. If we want equality, the people with less with have to benefit more until they're caught up, though, right?

I'm not sure how this relates to men's careers being more relevant to their happiness but good talk anyway.
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Metal_DK posted...

Don't legislate anything, but stop lying to men about the whole "once women have the good jobs women who are doctors will marry these low income men!" (i linked the assortative mating article as well which kinda explains this tbh). I see fewer leftists actually saything these type of things now after, oddly enough, Trump winning. Small sample size of only a few months, but still I have noticed it.

Okay, sure, I guess. If this is all about the dating scene it's way way less interesting to me. I will also tentatively agree with you about not telling men this lie (which I do think is a lie, though I haven't actually heard it told ever I don't think). I don't see any reason anyone should date someone who isn't good enough for them, and income can be a part of that, though it's not the only one.

Metal_DK posted...

Its this lying that has created the false illusion that the male gender role is as flexible as the female one, when the vast amount of evidence points to otherwise.

This though, idk about this. It's not like gender roles are static. Do you think it's just the current one that's less flexible for men than women? Because I could get on board with that, maybe, though I'd say maybe that they're inflexible in different ways. But if you think there's only been one across all of history then uh you've lost me.
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MenuWars posted...

Actually I think that'd be very indicative of the current situation as most current arguments for lgbtq rights are absolutely about happiness. Using the correct pronoun, accepting the state of or lack of transition, supporting them despite science heavily insinuating it's a mental condition, forcibly making your workforce more diverse in spite of qualifications to meet a quota. Disallowing the expressing of certain opinions, but openly embracing others.

Don't get me wrong there's tons of finesse and nuance to this, but as a whole isn't it all about happiness?

Uh, no. Most of that is about health and equality, not happiness, and you'll notice that most of it hasn't actually been a subject of legislation either (advocacy, though, yes is frequently about happiness).
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Drug addicts are just normal people like you and me who ended up with some problem (chronic pain, headaches, insomnia, depression, etc) and decided to self-medicate. There's absolutely no reason in my mind to dedicate less resources to them than anyone else, and maybe some reasons to dedicate more (e.g. if allocation is need-based).

Or we could all follow the teachings of Jesus who I'm pretty sure said "yeah you should just let drug users all die lmao fuck 'em" verbatim.
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Metal_DK posted...

I think that a career is more important to a man's happiness than a woman's. It does not mean defund planned parenthood, harass actresses in ghostbusters movies staring women online, or vote for Trump, or that women shouldnt be allowed to be in stem fields. I get labeled this way by my left friends. Yet i support mostly leftist ideas about economics (trickle down is bullshit) and social topics....

I just think the one thing (or maybe the one thing i observe) the right gets correct more often than the left is they are more likely to acknowledge that a man's career is more important to his happiness.

Serious question (and maybe I just missed where you mentioned it earlier, sorry if so) but what are the implications of this? Like say the left accepts it -- what happens then? We don't usually legislate based on people's happiness (whether we should is a different matter) so I'm curious what you see the end game here as being.
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MenuWars posted...

The worst thing about this is, the leftists are now saying it's absolutely fine to fire people based upon differing opinions at work.

pretty sure leftists (and everyone else) have been saying that for as long as there have been jobs. there just tends to be disagreement on A) what counts as an opinion and B) which opinions should be fireable offenses
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Kenri posted...

especially because other countries have unarmed police so I'm not sure why you're acting like it's a ridiculous idea?

"other countries" also don't allow women to drive. "other countries do it too so it's great" isn't the best argument >_>

Good point. Disarming police would be a good idea even if no other countries were already doing it, you're right.


Forceful_Dragon posted...

Okay but you need to understand that your anecdotal experience is not representative of the vast majority with regard to paper placement.

Granted but unless anyone has actual stats on this it's all anyone's going off of.


Forceful_Dragon posted...

If he were in a situation where he could not safely proceed before back up arrived then that's all there is to it.

But like... he wasn't... in a situation like that...
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StealThisSheen posted...

So you're saying that you know multiple people who just toss their insurance cards somewhere on the floor of their car

I don't believe that for a second.

I know zero people with a gun anywhere in their car and many, many people with important documents randomly strewn about. Feel free to not believe me.


StealThisSheen posted...

So you're basically the left's version of Seph/Corrik/etc.

well this is rude

especially because other countries have unarmed police so I'm not sure why you're acting like it's a ridiculous idea?
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StealThisSheen posted...

But if there's even a chance somebody could be reaching for a weapon, a cop absolutely should point their gun at them until they hold their hands up/whatever. Otherwise, if somebody actually is reaching for a gun, you're now saying them and the cop should have an old-western draw to see who can raise theirs quickest.

My dude I don't even believe that cops should carry guns, so I guarantee that's not what I'm saying.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Important papers like title/insurance/etc. that you may need to be able to get to easily? You really think people are going to go "Nah, I have too many other less important papers in my glove box. I'll just toss these on the floor?"

Absolutely, especially insurance. Title maybe less so.
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StealThisSheen posted...

I don't know anybody who keeps papers under a seat, where they could potentially slide out and get stepped on, get dirty, etc. That's usually a glovebox kind of thing.

not if your glovebox is full of other papers

idk man I've been in some dirty ass cars with papers everywhere
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StealThisSheen posted...

To be fair, somebody is more likely to keep a gun under a seat than papers. >_>

I really really doubt this is true but then it is America we're talking about...

Anyway you don't point a gun at someone unless you're okay with them being dead so the cop still probably deserves to be fired.
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Heard about this, very disappointing even though I don't really follow any of his content.
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Tales of Symphonia

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Alpha/beta discussions

Also this, and it was the Absolute Worst
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SmartMuffin posted...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/08/03/no-building-permit-for-australian-synagogue-it-might-draw-isis-supporter-terrorist-attacks-and-endanger-neighbors/?utm_term=.ab0bdc2f2adb

Australia bans the construction of a synagogue because they don't think the owners will be able to take sufficient measures to stop Muslims from blowing it up, which would endanger the community.

Small racist brain: Muslims are terrorists
Expanded racist brain: You can't build a synagogue
Cosmic racist brain: You can't build a synagogue because Muslims are terrorists
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Nixon's "I am not a crook" is possibly the most famous lie in history so something tells me it wouldn't have helped her to draw parallels there.
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Turns out the bad part of "Washington insider" is "insider", not "Washington".

Obvious to anyone who's paying attention, but unfortunately that precludes 99% of Trump's voters.
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SmartMuffin posted...

I guess this is what happens when you believe that gender is a social construct and men and women are basically the same except for social conditioning.

i think the social conditioning probably plays a big role here, actually?
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Hillary becoming mayor of NYC is the sort of pettiness and negativity I live for.
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Wanglicious posted...

frankly anything to get them out of it is okay but it's still funny to see more "true communism has never been tried!" type of rhetoric out of it.

I don't see why those comments are relevant at all, so if that's the funny thing then yeah -- but if your point is "Venezuela is/was communist" then you don't really have a strong grasp on what communism is.
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Cordelia sucks
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The Mana Sword posted...

Kenri posted...

but at least it's not stolen from Reddit!

you might want to double check that

not intentionally at least

i have no doubt other people have suggested the same
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I loaned one of my best friends about a grand in rent money (we were living together at the time) and she paid it all back as soon as she could. That was back when I had disposable income though, can't do it now.
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Part of me still thinks Scaramucci was a double agent trying to undermine the Trump administration from the inside. According to that line of thinking, he was fired because he got too reckless going after Priebus so early and they caught on.

...it's not Vlado-level fanfic but at least it's not stolen from Reddit!
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Yep, but not as much as a dine-in order unless it's something that required extra work (like a Japanese place packing a bento box to go).
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Traditional conservatism == neoconservatism? Language is dead.
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Jakyl25 posted...

At what point do they start thinking maybe President Pence isn't such a bad idea?

And alienate all the swing voters they picked up this last election? They have to at least wait until after the midterms for that.
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Delaney, who is a former banking CEO
Pass.
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Like episode 16 or something.

I forget if that's the exact one but I know the first half of the series is basically filler before it gets good.
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shocking that a webcomic about science and love would be anti-trump

and it's not even anti-trump, it's about the health care vote?
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very much so

Time to repeal 17th Amendment. Founders had it right-Senators chosen by state legislatures. Will work for their states and respect 10th amid

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Also fuck Mike Huckabee: https://twitter.com/burgessev/status/890837608162623489

"Waaah! Waaah! My already-rigged system isn't rigged enough!"
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Also big props to all of the Senate (+House) Dems, none of whom broke ranks to vote for any of these monstrosities regardless of how red their states were.

I'm legit surprised by this, though not nearly as much as by McCain actually doing something worthwhile for the first time in a decade. I'll give you props for calling that one, too.
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TheRock1525 posted...

I mean, mental illness is present in cisgendered people as well. If both groups have these problems, why is one more likely to commit suicide than the other? Maybe societal pressures.

Yup. Not to mention that societal forces can cause/worsen mental illness in the first place.

Edit: I somehow missed Bowser's post where he said effectively this but more elegantly -- whoops!
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NFUN posted...

No, gender dysmorphia can cause a lot of anguish independently of other people. Society's views certainly don't help, but they aren't the sole cause of issues.

Gender dysphoria is not an inherent part of being trans either but yes related mental illnesses can indeed cause issues.
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Johnbobb posted...

The Expendables (starring Michelle Rodriguez in every role)

needs Sigourney Weaver too tbh

and Lucy Lawless

and Carrie Fisher :(
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Wanglicious posted...

about 40% of trans people try to commit suicide and 40-50% have issues with depression, anxiety, or both. that's both MtF and FtM. from that aspect alone, would military reject people based on those figures or would they ask for more data and have more scrutiny on any trans applicant? basically is this stat alone something that would make recruiters balk or would they still listen?

You realize that trans people are more likely to be depressed/be anxious/commit suicide because they face widespread discrimination in society, right.

Like it's not some inherent part of being trans, it's literally because of policies like this one.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Kenri posted...

Idk man the national guard has done some pretty horrible shit too

I'm arguing in theory. Congress does horrible shit no matter who is in charge but that doesn't mean it's bad to have a Congress

You're talking to someone who believes in abolishing at least the Senate so we may not see eye to eye on this one!
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Idk man the national guard has done some pretty horrible shit too
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HashtagSEP posted...

I'm not quite sure how the ENTIRE military is a waste

Because war is like, bad, man
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Ideally the military would just ban everyone from serving.

And cut its entire budget (because it's all waste).

Only way to not be a hypocrite!
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Jakyl25 posted...

Also any talk about mental capacity ignores the fact that the issues upon which Trump has discharged trans people are "the tremendous cost" and "disruption," neither of which is really an issue of mindset at all

It's pretty obviously setting a precedent for later policies. Those are the same two arguments used by "reasonable conservatives" to justify bathroom bills. The "they'll rape our kids" fearmongering doesn't work for the military, and "it weakens our military" doesn't work for civilian society, but there's overlap with these two.
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Wanglicious posted...

i doubt this is a thing Trump has against trans people

i don't lmao

maybe you've been ignoring the things trump does and says and the person he is for the last two years?
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