Lurker > HanOfTheNekos

Eh, I don't like True Neutral as an alignment. To me, it fits with unaligned - that is, beasts and things too dumb to go a certain direction. There is no morality that guides them.

Unless they're just beasts that like killing, then they swerve into chaotic evil.

If Thanos was truely true neutral, then I don't think he would care about the universe at all. It rests as a "he wants to save the universe while killing half of everybody" midpoint, but I think there is an inherent copout in choosing neutral as a midpoint. It's not neutral. He's very much an evil dude that seeks to preserve society and life... hence why I call him lawful evil. If he wasn't evil, his initial solution to Titan's problem wouldn't have been the death lottery.

As for the Gamora thing - evil characters can have positive feelings, like love. The fact that he's willing to kill who he loves for his goal further cements him into evil, in my opinion
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

pichu; ivysaur
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Man, this topic has triggered me.

First of all, Gil, you know better than to use motivation singularly to determine alignment.

Second of all, I can accept the argument that Thanos is Neutral Evil. It's his way or the highway, so that strays enough from others where I can agree that he doesn't fit in entirely within existing boundaries. My thought with him as lawful is in terms of his goals - he wants to prevent the universe from dying by reducing the population. That is strict control. If you view the desolation of finite resources and problems that ensue as chaos, then he is directly opposed to that.

Now, what I absolutely cannot fathom at all, is anyone considering Thanos as not-evil. Like... murder is evil. He murders. A lot. This is even ignoring his whole plan... he just kills whoever is in his way. Even if you're making the argument that his goal is 'good', he would come up with some other plan. Disregard for the lives of others is evil. Flat out.

MariaTaylor posted...

guys it's literally "perfectly balanced as all things should be"

Here's where I break from D&D - I think balance is inherently lawful. Everything has a place, everything needs to be at a certain proportion to run, circle of life, all of that... that's totally lawful.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

We already know "half" is arbitrary. Why not just remove one third? Or, if youre expecting to have to do it again, 3/4ths?

The key part of this equation is that Thanos is indiscriminately killing. He can't not be evil. Basic morality concerning the value of life and innocence determines that.

Killing can be done for good purposes, but context is incredibly important.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Thanos cannot be above evil. Blatant disregard for the lives of others. He kills, and he doesnt care who, to accomplish his goals.
This is why I'm saying to examine his goals on the lawful-chaotic axis - it's limiting chaos and desolation, keeping the universe in order as it has been.

Although his final method being truly indiscriminate, is very chaotic, where I can see the argument for neutral evil

But still, that would be using chaos as the means to achieve order.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

"Selfish power" is not inherently evil. If he was evil because he just cant wait to be king, then... welp.

Scar is evil because he would kill his family to achieve his goals. His goal isn't to kill his family, though.

His goals don't extend beyond becoming king, which is why he's a bad king. Doesn't make him less lawful.

Thanos is another character I'd say fits lawful evil whose goal is not evil, but the process is.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

pichu;ivysaur
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Robin hood is the most obvious version of chaotic good you can find, and he operates on a code.

Lopen posted...

Chaotic vs Lawful is about the process

Good vs Evil is about the result

This is also not a good dichotomy.

Scar's goal in Lion King is to rule. He wants power in an established order - evil is his method to achieve.

Frollo in Hunchback fits your statement more - operates within an established order to achieve evil means.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

ivysaur;pichu
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Good spectrum is a little different... in those lines, I treat it more of where those people operate, since all good people tend towards a basic sense of order. A lawful good person operates within society and existing structures - they're more likely to be member to established organizations, allow justice to occur through the "proper" channels, stick to their word.

Chaotic good people stick to smaller groups, are more free-spirited, and tend to be more selfish. Chaotic good is usually the alignment of most adventuring groups, though an argument can be made for neutral good and chaotic neutral.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

I like to rename lawful to "order". Makes a lot more sense when you consider it on the evil side of the axis... lawful evil operates within a set order, a code, etc... the is order to the world and they will achieve their desires within the existing order. They also do evil to establish that order - if someone wants to become an evil king, they're lawful.

Chaotic evil acts in opposition to order and expectation. They do evil, almost with the purpose of taking down existing structures.

Most Disney villains are lawful evil.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

TLJ was meh because the conflicts were mostly hamfisted and then they say the main one doesn't even matter because both sides fighting just benefits the military- industrial complex.

At the end of the movie, who are you rooting for against who? And why?
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

pichu; ivysaur
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

pichu;ivysaur ,.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

pichu;ivysaur
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

pichu;ivysaur

.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

pichu;ivysaur
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Rey not being a Skywalker is such top-tier storytelling. I mean, they'll be writing about that one for decades. Vader being Luke's father is cool, but Rey not being Luke's daughter is EVEN COOLER

I dont know why they even make any more movies at all. No movie will ever beat Rey not being a Skywalker. Shakespeare is trash compared to that.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

pichu; daisy
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

pichu; ivysaur

.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

pichu; ivysaur
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Hbthebattle posted...

Han, IS ed still a scumread for you?

Read my posts this topic. They give you that answer.

masterplum posted...

If Reg flips town we kill Han tomorrow. Easy enough

masterplum posted...

Oh vanilla claim.

Im going back to bed then

Anyway, I'm likely dead tonight,so pay attention to votes and trains, everyone.

Plum saying this is possibly very important.

I feel a lot better about Terra now.

Sorry I couldn't get full list of reads out, too busy all day.

Bye for real

<3 you all
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Sheep007 posted...

Sheep007 posted...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

masterplum posted...

Thinking right now that Han is scum with Ed. Han is running the play where he suspects ed, then makes it seem like ed is the sure thing and railroads someone else, hoping that people forget about the early vanilla claim when a b8 town player inevitably says something that sounds bad but isnt inherently scummy

Seen it a million times

I'll make you a deal then - we're 100% lynching eaed today, and in the penultimate hour of the game (I'll be gone for final hour) I'll scream and shout at everyone who says anything otherwise.

That way, you can keep your paranoia and eat it too

Reminder that this happened AFTER HAN VOTED REG AND SAID ED WAS SUCH OBVIOUS SCUM HE WASN'T WORTH SPENDING MORE TIME ON

Omfg you neanderthal

Reg didnt even claim until just now. I was keeping pressure on him. I never said j didnt think eaed was scum. I have repeatedly still said he is.

You're fucking scum or illiterate.

And since I think you're scum, I'm staying on Reg.

Rent is starting. Bye
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

masterplum posted...

Fell asleep

Whats up everyone

Hi. Plum, will you be upset if I leave my vote on Reg instead of eaed?

I do not like that Scare, Sheep, and now Reg are all on eaed. Makes me prefer Reg's lynch.

Still think there's a good chance both are scum.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

htaeD posted...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Sheep007 posted...

Hey, Han, I remembered again and you didn't answer earlier. Why is Ed no longer even on your radar?

This right here is why I think Sheep is Scum. He's defending himself by attacking me with a strawman he created.

Why not just answer the question though?

It's not a real question. Its like me asking you death, why you think Chris is Scum thiis game.

I literally even said I didn't say I preferred reg to eaed
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Reg, Scum wouldn't shoot you unless you were 100% right with reads.

Rent starts in 8 minutes.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Shaduln posted...

Han you never answered me why Reg > eaed in scumminess.

I also never answered you why 2+2=7
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

If eaed and Reg are both Scum, who is trying to win points based on pushing eaed over Reg?
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Dark Young Link posted...

I'm still on IGCD?

##Unvote: IGCD
##Vote: eaed

Much stronger read here.

DYL is Scum protecting Reg
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Sheep007 posted...

Hey, Han, I remembered again and you didn't answer earlier. Why is Ed no longer even on your radar?

This right here is why I think Sheep is Scum. He's defending himself by attacking me with a strawman he created.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Corrik posted...

Scare just said hey I think sheep is scum too but I won't vote who I think is scum because I am too egotistical to do it because someone else said to do it.

That sounds like a town statement to me.

You're not being sarcastic, right?
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

ScareChan posted...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Important point:

I spent all of this day saying both Reg and Eaed are Scum.

Neither has outright said they accuse me. And both have acted as though they believe I'm Town (especially eaed, who said "I want you to see how wrong you are")

Town usually think people are suspicious of them for pushing them... after all, they're Town, why would someone push them?

But Reg and Eaed have entirely put weak suspicion towards me using other people (which red is facilitating) like crazy.

Not sure if only one of Eaed or Reg is Scum, but if I had to make a list right now...

Scum
Reg
Eaed
Sheep

Probably Scum
Scare

Chance of being Scum because he hasnt said anything I've really agreed with all game and is helping my scumspects to look better
Red

Odds make me really hesitant to say both Red and Scare are Scum, but him saying "one of you and Scare has to be scum" SCREAMS of red being a scumbuddy with Scare.

Red and scare dunked you last game

I have town read you most of the game

Red I'm unsure of because I dont think that sleeping thing is very townie but we will see

Red didnt do shit last game.

I will say, red being so in opposition to me this game is really weird and definitely influencing my read on him.

benjamin3740 posted...

Han I reaallly think Scare is town. And we have an eternal mason buddy connection

I really dont like what hes been doing.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Shaduln posted...

Shaduln posted...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

After HB's last game, it seems weird to me that Scare, who was his Scummate, is calling him Scum here. And it seems odd that Scare is using his position as vocal player to say that Reg will not be lynched.

I really dont like this play from Scare.

So is the desire to lynch Reg over eaed based on Scare's play instead of eaed/Reg's play?

Han could you still answer this please.

I have expressed no desire to lynch Reg over eaed.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Red, what do you think of my thoughts on Reg/Sheep/Scare?
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

I really dont like Reg being so "Han will resolve later" either.

Why be so hands off? It's so scummy.

htaeD posted...

Still looking back. I do think half the votes on Reg are pretty bad.
I can even see Regs counter argument towards Terra.. Half of it. It does sound like he was piling on arguments to call Reg scum even though two of them were contradictory. And Terra's explanation of this was just a 'if you dont get it, dont even try'

Also I dont find sheep to be rude up there.
If anything, Ben is periodically far ruder than I remember his townself being.

Hes not rude so much as aggressive. And it doesn't match with what I expect from him.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Important point:

I spent all of this day saying both Reg and Eaed are Scum.

Neither has outright said they accuse me. And both have acted as though they believe I'm Town (especially eaed, who said "I want you to see how wrong you are")

Town usually think people are suspicious of them for pushing them... after all, they're Town, why would someone push them?

But Reg and Eaed have entirely put weak suspicion towards me using other people (which red is facilitating) like crazy.

Not sure if only one of Eaed or Reg is Scum, but if I had to make a list right now...

Scum
Reg
Eaed
Sheep

Probably Scum
Scare

Chance of being Scum because he hasnt said anything I've really agreed with all game and is helping my scumspects to look better
Red

Odds make me really hesitant to say both Red and Scare are Scum, but him saying "one of you and Scare has to be scum" SCREAMS of red being a scumbuddy with Scare.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Ok yeah Sheep is def Scum.

This attitude is way too rude to be Town Sheep.

Sheep007 posted...

Johnbobb posted...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Reg/MZrro/Sheep/Scare scumteam?

...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Book of Confirmed Scum
Eaed

Thanks, John. I was kinda wondering if anyone else was going to bring up the fact that Han said he would probably go back to Ed and that he seems to have completely forgotten about him now.

This is way too aggressive of a defense. Sheep is mad I fingered him. No reason to get this ready in arms about a simple placement on a list.

Which means Scare is likely Scum with Reg and Sheep.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

As soon as I mention Sheep possibly being Scum, he goes on attack mode instantly.

Scare has been acting in a way I really don't like. That set me to think of him working on things as if he is Scum playing set-up... ends up with Sheep being on that list.

Was going to say I didn't like JB, especially with how quick he was with that quote of me. But Sheep got aggressive real quick as soon as I mentioned him.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Driving, give me a few.

Sheep probably Scum.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Reg/MZrro/Sheep/Scare scumteam?
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

After HB's last game, it seems weird to me that Scare, who was his Scummate, is calling him Scum here. And it seems odd that Scare is using his position as vocal player to say that Reg will not be lynched.

I really dont like this play from Scare.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

eaedwards6400 posted...

benjamin3740 posted...

Sooo what's scummier? Hiding it or not hiding it?

Hiding it may be scummier but there are more things that HB is doing that makes him scummier than you.

Hmm eaed outing Ben as Scumbuddy here?

Anyway, I want to lynch Reg atm over eaed. Just to see what Scare will do.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

ganon;ridley
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

htaeD posted...

Sorta
But I'd say his activity is sad even compared to the last game where his rooftop got damaged.

True. But he was also scum, that game.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Corrik would afk day 1 as either alignment. If he doesn't participate, hes not going to. And even though we certainly have an argument for "not meaningful content", there's a few players ahead of him on that list atm
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

I even have that one, with 303 days
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Oh no I broke the game
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Hey Death, I don't feel good about you at the moment.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Aww snake

pichu;ivysaur

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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic

Yes. I am saying that you should never, ever, go after Corrik. Ever.
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"Bordate is a pretty shady place, what with the gangs, casinos, evil corporations and water park." - FAHtastic