Lurker > KanzarisKelshen

Lopen posted...

No magic, no weapons or armor, and only strikes (including but not necessarily limited to punches) imo.

...Yeah, fair

Considering that if we keep the rest of the SPO ruleset the targeted merc can win by stalling instead of having to straight up beat Mac, and buffs/heals/debuffs are still go, I think that seems like the right middle ground between Mac winning against everyone for free and him losing to any random 2/week. Yay for community discussions!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

I think allowing all unarmed attacks is pretty much a necessity (otherwise people get really, really anal about 'DOES THIS GUY HAVE SPECIFICALLY BOXING FEATS OR I VOTE MAC' which is just, so dumb), but we can probably ban magic and weapons. I'm pretty certain that people without good martial arts feats won't be able to beat Mac even if they're otherwise superhuman, so that seems like a decent compromise that keeps the ability valuable without it just being an autowin.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Drakeryn posted...

Eddv posted...

Well you have to understand this is Macs ONLY value.

In actual matches he contributes NOTHING he is basically just a free kill of anyone 4 or lower with only a few exceptions once every 5 weeks which works well

I agree with this. If all unarmed combat is allowed then Mac just loses for free against everyone who isn't Crash or a trash gunner and he has no value as a merc.

idk about that, if offensive magic is banned mac would still murder kuja for example

(and also a bunch of weapon-based melees. Like Lloyd Irving limited to unarmed attacks vs Mac, who ya got? I might take Mac there)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

(also yeah, 'should offensive magic be allowed' is something that's open to discussion too. Buffs/debuffs should totally be good because they're entirely in theme for Punch Out but I can see merit in letting Mac bully mages who are crappy cqc fighters.)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Remember cds are going the way of the dodo though

When you can spam it every week title bout goes from being pretty good to absurdly busted, as it was in m4. I'm fine with trimming some power off it in exchange, so long as the ability is worth using still (change it to a Pool of 5 random effect maybe? Possibly shrinkable to Pool of 3 on upgrade?)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Also, considering how this match went, this seems relevant:

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/vonkaisermp40_2026.png
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

So you guys think the rules should be more like 'unarmed attacks and magic are go but weapons are verboten'? Cause I can agree with that so long as we don't go back to the absolutely asinine situation where everyone who isn't Balrog or a High Tier mercenary loses for free to Mac in the ring. Home field advantage is one thing, but autowinning against most of the mercs cast is an entirely different matter.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Same

Kiryu is like Mac if he had tons more power and insane durability on top of the preexistent reflexes, speed and skill. He could fight fair (in fact I sorta feel like he would - dude's pretty honorable) and still have enough tricks up his sleeve to eke it out.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Kazuma Kiryu

I'm not gonna lie, this match was inspired by me playing the Yakuza games for the first time and having my head kinda blown by how badass Kiryu is in them. I felt like he should win but wanted to see what everyone else thought instead of voting early. Glad to see everyone else respects the Dragon of Dojima's fighting skills too!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

banananor posted...

I'm so confused by the punch out rule that says "there are no illegal moves or punches"

hi, welcome to punch out where Dragon Chan kicks you in the jaw and Hoy Quarlow beats the shit out of you with a stick

shits wild like that and not at all like a real boxing match
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

He also has a lot of experience fighting a really wide variety of dudes with similar gimmicks to Mac's enemies too

Like, dude who clones himself? Yeah, that's Kiryu's archrival and he beats him every time. Dudes who punch down walls? Yeah multiple ones. Huge dudes you can't stun? Yep. You get the idea. He has very few weak points to exploit.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

He also has his own versions of the Star Punch (plural), too

Like so



(not the only one, but a good example of how brutal and quick he's on the punish if Mac fucks up even once.)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Yes, and also a dude who suplexes bears, and a lion, and...you get the picture.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Mewtwo59 posted...

Does Kiryu have any boxing experience?

He's been trained by multiple boxers and his fighting style incorporates tenets of it, so yes. Honestly this is like, a brutal match for Mac IMO because Kiryu is straight up insane in how skilly he is as a barehanded fighter. He also is not restrained to punches or anything of the sort because Super Punch Out rules are loose as fuck, too.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Little Mac has challenged Kazuma Kiryu to a fight! Location of the fight: WVBA boxing ring - The standard ring for fights in the Punch-Out series.. Which side will win?

Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The fight will operate under Super Punch-Out rules, as seen here, minus the rematch rule: https://imgur.com/spx2dXr
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

- Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
- You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
- Leaders cannot vote for their own teams, but they are free to argue their case.
- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
-This match will end in 24 hours.

Little Mac is as seen in Punch Out!! for Wii and the Smash Bros series (minus game mechanics and Final Smashes). In the context of this fight, he can use his Star Uppercut technique as freely as he wants, so long as the opening presents itself.

~VS~

Kazuma Kiryu is as he appears in Yakuza Kiwami, with access to all of his fighting styles seen throughout the entire Yakuza series, as well as all Heat Actions and Ultimate Heat Mode. He has a Zap Gun, New Flak Jacket, Red Bicycle and six doses of Staminan Royale, and will start the fight at maximum Heat.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Ulti_PCA posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

...man what

like I get not liking TWEWY controls even though I absolutely love them, but Richter handling bad? His inputs were dead simple, I'm pretty sure I beat galamoth in under six hours with him on my second playthrough (first was obviously Alucard). It's not like he asks for Soul Steal stuff all the time, as I recall the two inputs to memorize are his airdash and highjump. I'm terrible at inputs but I'm pretty sure I can record myself blazing through SotN with him.

You do not understand how difficult that dash input is with how massive my hands are. I wish I was even kidding.

https://twitter.com/Ultimaterializr/status/1075959420587307009

I bet you if my fight stick still worked and I played the game on that I would actually like the character. But fuck em.

Weird, our hands are similar size and I had no issues. I think I have leaner fingers though. That might be the issue - stocky thumb probably makes controlling him harder.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Ulti_PCA posted...

Lopen posted...

Also Richter has one of the best controls in gaming in SotN.

This is bullshit and you full well know it. Liking him is fine. "Best controls in gaming"? Come on bro, don't insult my intelligence.

FWIW, Hollow Knight has bar none the best controls in any Metroidvania...but Richter would be a top 3 pick for sure. Like compare with say, the Axiom Verge MC and it's no contest imo.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

...man what

like I get not liking TWEWY controls even though I absolutely love them, but Richter handling bad? His inputs were dead simple, I'm pretty sure I beat galamoth in under six hours with him on my second playthrough (first was obviously Alucard). It's not like he asks for Soul Steal stuff all the time, as I recall the two inputs to memorize are his airdash and highjump. I'm terrible at inputs but I'm pretty sure I can record myself blazing through SotN with him.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

trdl23 posted...

Kanz, now that the contest is over, can we get this moving again?

Sounds like a plan to me

The sooner this happens, the better!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Thats because there was no coopting. I'd appreciate if you engaged me on this man. I'm asking you seriously because I hold a measure of respect for you. Are you gonna pretend I said nothing and not respond to a personal request?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

@Ulti_PCA

I'm late, but this is important: Cultural Marxism did NOT have 'good origins' or anything of the sort. It's a term directly descended from Cultural Bolshevism, used by the nazis to censor thoughts opposed to their genocidal beliefs. I can explain this in more detail if you need to be convinced, but it is not a term that is worth using and it cannot be salvaged. It comes from a completely poisoned well and its intrinsically linked to said well. We can disagree on a lot of things, but I think we can agree that nazi buzzword terms under a new guise can fuck right off. Please do not use them.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

You're making me want a favorite book character contest now

wonder who'd win it?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

DeathChicken posted...

Jackie from The Darkness games would be a really neat merc. Too bad he's probably ineligible because comic

Ehhh

On one hand this is true

on the other, I am a comics turbonerd and I tell you, Jackie Estacado is way better known by The Darkness games than his own comic series

and we DO allow Strider (and, much more importantly, GERALT) into mercs so I feel we can probably make room for him. Maybe try making a build, see what you come up with?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Get over yourself. Everyone celebrates when they win and attacks the enemy when they lose in these things.

Nah. Mario lost today but I'm OK with it. Losing to Samus would've been an embarrassment, losing to Cloud just sets up an awesome runback next contest. There's no reason to get mad about a loss that makes things interesting - because I'm p sure if he hadn't beaten Samus a couple days ago, Mario takes this match in a close one.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

ZeldaTPLink posted...

Guys stop quoting Interwebuser thx.

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

KamikazePotato posted...

Gonna set the vote limit that Cloud needs to keep the match at to have a comeback chance at: 250 votes.

Seems about right to me

I don't think anyone has turned a bigger difference around yet?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sighs

TWEWY is one thing me and Ulti will never, ever agree on. I could write an enormous thesis on why TWEWY is an absolute triumph and Final Remix was the game that first made me seriously consider grabbing a Switch, but would it even be worth the effort? I feel like it's a very 'gut reaction' kinda game. People love it from the get-go, or hate it and there's rarely any in-between.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

This early result is pretty ungood for mario

cloud will rise throughout the day so he needs a pretty high percentage at the end of the power hour

55% and I'd feel safeish, 53% and he should be favored, 52% and it's a coinflip
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

ZeldaTPLink posted...

The Wii was launched at ~1300 dollars here.

And where I'm at, a 200 USD monitor goes for quadruple that price, yeah

Context matters guys, gaming prices are set to first world standards and if you're not living in such a country you get super gouged
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

TheKoolAidShoto posted...

Encouraging piracy

Has it really come to this

Try being a gamer in a country where your average game costs 1500 bucks and we'll talk imo
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Link versus Cloud posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

Mario>Samus is the most villainous result we've had in like, forever. Samus was reversing a 40-60 loss from 12 years ago, overcoming the Nintendo Hierarchy, overcoming bracket votes, and overcoming the Registered Voter Bonus which I will remind is equivalent to 400+ stuffed votes, overcoming rabid Mario ralliers literally going door-to-door asking people to vote. She came one update away from overcoming all that through raw strength alone. It's like an anime ending except the cheating villain won.

Good plotline tbh. I would love to watch an Anime where the hero gets destroyed by the villain in embarrassing fashion and then spends the next 13 years growing to finally get her re-match, only to narrowly be defeated this time due to being unable to unleash her full power. Then in the final arc, she finally unleashes her full power and gains the upperhand on the villain for the first time, but the crafty villain finds a way through devious tactics to bring the fight to a last hit situation and picks up that 3rd W in a fade to black. Would be a pretty refreshing story.

I'm pretty sure a boxing manga has done this before, on that note

I know Ashita no Joe ends with the hero losing, for instance

KamikazePotato posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

How can you say the person with less raw vote intake SFF'd the one with more?

It's called rSFF and the Samus/Mario matches this contest basically confirmed that it exists

I'm still skeptical. RSFF doesn't flip 15% around. Would sooner believe Mario is a bit stronger than Samus and runback wonkiness let her come closer than expected. Guess we'll see if this theory holds with Mario flipping the result on Zelda!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

KamikazePotato posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

It's just...I'm not alone you know? Mario won and that doesn't happen if people just don't like him. There's a lot of people who really care about Mario, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense to neutrals.

You're trying to convince the neutrals here. The people who were already going to vote for Mario>Zelda may be 'emboldened' after this result but what does it matter? Their votes were already locked in.

I think this match was as removed of SFF as you can possibly get and he managed to pull off a miracle.

>_________________>

It's like you said man

samus was ahead in raw vote intake

How can you say the person with less raw vote intake SFF'd the one with more? That doesn't even make any sense, the gamefaqs core userbase just likes Mario in general
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

KamikazePotato posted...

Kanz, you are looking at this from the perspective of a mega Mario fan who always wants him to win. I can tell you that as someone who is ambivalent towards both Mario and Samus, that my vote for Zelda>Mario next round was made 100% in stone due to how this match played out.

Yeah I get what you mean

It's just...I'm not alone you know? Mario won and that doesn't happen if people just don't like him. There's a lot of people who really care about Mario, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense to neutrals. I think this match was as removed of SFF as you can possibly get and he managed to pull off a miracle. I can't write him off after this - I just can't. If he goes down, so be it, but I'll go down with the ship then!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Hi5, Ulti! I'm gonna see if I can't get my friends to vote for the fat man if he gets to Zelda. If ever there was a time to put in effort for a contest match, that'll be it. Let's make something happen!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

KamikazePotato posted...

Nanis, please don't quote Ulti posts.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Mario clutching it out against Samus reminds people who love him of WHY they love him.

Yeah, that only works if you're not the villain. First example I can think of is Sephiroth holding back Missingno in 2010. That did NOT turn out well for him.

As a counterpoint, look at the people here cheering for the plumber. He's not universally reviled in the slightest for this. People want to see Mario redeem himself. This match was an incredibly long time coming after Mario/Vivi. I know I fucking yelled when I saw he'd won because after seeing downer after downer with my favorites stinking up the joint all over, my biggest contest favorite doing something magical was a huge redemption. Mario has just as much to prove as Zelda here - he's been doubted as the #2 since 2010, and if he can flip the result against her when she's on infinite steroids, it'll finally confirm it. I'mt not saying he's guaranteed to win here. Only that you shouldn't count him out.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

KamikazePotato posted...

Samus closed the distance because she wasn't kneecapped by having to field her sprite against Mario's. And Mario winning a last update match doesn't matter - Mario's isn't capable of catching a bandwagon. For a bandwagon to happen, you need to start punching above your weight class and causing shocking results. Mario needing cheating his way over a character he should be clearly beating isn't worthy of a bandwagon. It's embarrassing.

Zelda is going to get like 53% on him and then get stomped by Link again.

It's not a bandwagon, it's a reinforcement. Mario clutching it out against Samus reminds people who love him of WHY they love him. That might be all it takes to drop the hammer on Zelda and get the flip.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Mario 2k2 > Undertale > MM > Snake 2010 > Zelda I think

Zelda has yet to have a balls to the wall crazy match that is close. She's been dominant, but not exciting like the ones above her were. If she has a match that ends close before this contest ends though, she enters the conversation.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Averia posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

TheKoolAidShoto posted...

KP

Stop

When you don't care about any of the remaining characters, you have to pick a side and run with it to get enjoyment out of things

And I never side with the villain

Think of it as Mario's good karma after the Vivi match being shackled down by Ganondorf and having an endless small rally powering Vivi !

Alternatively, think of it as Mario pulling a HULKAMANIA straight outta the 80s, his own decade
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

KamikazePotato posted...

Mario is fucked against Zelda next round.

Don't be so sure. Mario just won a last update match and Zelda's about to take a mauling. If he can keep things interesting with Mario/Cloud, who's to say Mario can't get hot and flip the result from the winners' bracket? We just saw how Samus came within striking distance of flipping a bigger difference. Why can't Mario do the same?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

_SecretSquirrel posted...

XIII_rocks posted...

Also it looks like lukejalil is now favourite for the contest, if he picked Mario to beat Cloud next round and for Link to win the whole thing.

All the sudden, that last part isn't a gimme though. If Zelda is doing this now, what is she going to pack for the grand finals?

0 because Mario gonna RUN IT BACK SON
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

omg omg omg

HE DID IT HE DID IT THE SON OF A BITCH DID IT

I LOVE YOU MARIO! YESSSSSSSSSSS!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

C'mon Mario c'mon

One last bit of magic! YOU CAN DO IT!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Oh right

Make that wishing I had more than two votes then!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

_SecretSquirrel posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Would that I had more than one vote to give

I want mario to win so badly

Soooo badly!

Technically, you do have two votes.

Hm? Whatcha mean?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Would that I had more than one vote to give

I want mario to win so badly

Soooo badly!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

No way is zelda getting a clean win vs whoever wins here

The hype is too real and she'll be coming off a doubling at the hands of Link

Whoever wins this goes to the grand finals, BELIEVE IT
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

OMG MARIO WITH THE CLUTCH UPDATE

CMON MARIO, HOLD ON A LITTLE LONGER!

(caps)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Not a player but I agree that d1 assassin is a completely solved meta on b8. I think I've assassinated chris every single time I've been scum and its dumb that I have never failed to get away with it. If assassins are in the game, set them to night 2 imo. Two days is enough for players to actually do something and it's a less braindead, punishing play to kill the chattiest, smartest townie.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.