Lurker > KanzarisKelshen

MetalmindStats posted...

I'm absolutely not in a place to play but might try to occasionally vote and otherwise spectate.

On that note, even though I'm not new to quietly following along with Mercs, I still wonder - how much does it matter to have experience (whether by playing, watching, or both) with many games? Have frequently felt like my lacking breadth leaves me too uninformed to vote even after arguments or otherwise to understand characters' capabilities. Sorry if this is an unsuitable place to ask...

'It helps but it's not needed' is my stance. I game a lot and I mean A LOT but when I played and won a mercs, my tactic was to do a quick research on each merc that seemed good at a gameplay mechanics level (ie had a good ability) OR had really strong combat buzz and see what I found in 15 to 30 minutes, whether by asking someone who loved the merc and would chat my ear off or via internet threads. If they wowed me, I considered investing. If they didn't, I passed. And it worked! It takes a bit of time but you get faster and faster as you do it more too.

FFDragon posted...

this is how I know I'm still in hell

If it helps any, I think that the response to the last test run was pretty positive overall. Mercs is never gonna be an undemanding game, but I think the general sentiment was that the game was the most fun it's ever been and the admin handling was acceptable (not trying to toot the team's own horn here, if anybody thinks we need to fix shit call us out pls). Most of all, I think we've made good on the idea that you can just, do what you want and things will work. Mercs is never gonna be a game that fails to get people mad, but our hope is that it's going to be the kind of mad that comes from playing a tight game of any kind and barely losing and that goes away after a bit of time, and not the sort that comes from a total misery pit that never stops getting worse. I would welcome no one's advice more than yours, as someone who is (justifiably) super snakebit about this whole thing. If there is anything we can do to make it better, we want to hear about it. We're committed to making sure M5 is a mercs people truly can look back onto and say 'I had a lot of fun, when's the next one?' for a change.

If you're familiar with the game already, you know what to expect. Signups are open, go sign up!!

For everyone else, welcome to Mercenaries, the weirdest, wackiest, and best forum game in the world. It's a mixture of 'who would win in a fight?' debates, politicking, backstabbing, grand strategy, economic planning and weaponized shonen anime plot twists via game mechanics as players seek to claim supremacy by assembling squadrons of videogame characters to fight for them! The new iteration is very close at hand, and to finish fine-tuning some of its details, we are planning to run a brief test run to test things out. If you've ever wondered if you might enjoy this but were scared about the time commitment, don't worry! The test run is a short affair, lasting only a few months. We will be running an accelerated schedule, powering up players significantly and increasing the rate at which teams grow in power to test some new mechanics.

Some of the things we are going to be testing are:

-New mechanics! Bounty hunters and desperate measures, bulwarks and simplified mercenaries, oh my!
-Upgrade costs! You'll get to try out the shiny new toys that usually take some effort to grab. Explore some fantastic and silly ability combos today!
-Starting team funds to build teams with. The first Test Run had everyone fairly resource starved. We are looking to let players off the leash this time, giving them a solid extra influx of cash to work with.

If you'd like to join us, all you have to do is post your interest! We will be picking out (likely) eight players to test teams, and then get started soon after. We also have a discord where we discuss the game, which you can find here if you want to join us: https://discord.gg/MXbzSYwn

Addendum to the above: I also think pity breakers should be universal, like an item you buy and your next kill gives you all the loot it could drop. I also think 'Looter X' games do not necessarily need breakers, Diablolikes would be less fun with a guaranteed loot grind. The methods Last Epoch, the goat of diablolikes, uses, are the right implementation for that genre. But anything where the grind is a side dish and not the point needs ways to force drops.

UltimaterializerX posted...

For people who think low drop rates are bad game design, what would you prefer? 5%? 100%?

Not asking to be snarky, Im genuinely curious what you feel the magic number is. There has to be a compromise between Zod runes and I want everything handed to me for no effort and Ive spent too much time on various gaming forums trying to figure out what that magic number is.

Single digit plus a 'force the drop' pity breaker. Ezpz

I forget if its for drain or healing but it doesnt count for castorice's sake for one of them because cyrene's memosprite aint real. Its good but not as good as you'd think, cyrene's memo is a ghetto lightning lord

Cyrene's sprite mirrors her hp so cannot be chaindrained iirc

Fio. It's very close but I think she has it. I could see it going the other way too though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK1uyRibbU0

This is a pretty decent run of one of the more challenging levels of the second game, played on 'you die and you restart from scratch' mode without being a speedrun that just ignores everything. Shows off Isaac's space wizard gimmicks and the effectiveness of his improvised weaponry.

Honestly my concern is how Isaac deals with Fio on foot. I think if he hits a stasis on the tank and nukes her while she's in it this is open and shut...but I legit don't know how he hits her if she does the classic metal slug maneuver of jumping out at the last second. When a necromorph breed that is significantly faster than Isaac (Twitchers) comes at him it's a real 'fuck saving, send ALL ammo' situation and Fio has deadly ranged weaponry to go with her speed. Feels like a super polarized matchup where one side is going to dominate the other but idk which. Real '10-10 matchup' stuff

Chaeix posted...

I view Isaacs weaponry as basically laser saws. Can these laser saws cut through metal the same way they do monsters?

Sometimes (TM). The plasma cutter for example has this lore:

The Plasma Cutter delivers a cohesive pulse-stream, or "bolt", of ionized plasma when fired. It is capable of firing bolts vertically (primary firing mode) and horizontally (secondary firing mode). The Plasma Cutter is very accurate, utilizing three blue laser pointers to indicate the desired cutting plane.
On impact with the target, bolt cohesion fails frontward first, penetrating the target with a focused jet of superheated matter. This causes intense localized shear effects as well as a tunneling thermal expansion. When used upon brittle, frozen rocks riddled with faults, it can split them open in one or two shots in skilled hands. Against pliable targets (Necromorphs), however, impact will cause minimal damage and thermal expansion will not so much cut as stress the area around the impact site, sometimes requiring several consecutive hits with the non-upgraded tool. Still, when presented with a less than effective alternative against dense organic matter, the 211-V Plasma Cutter retains its utility.

I would say 'yes, but with limits'. The Contact Beam likely can punch through a tank. The others would take a lot more work to do so.

Arguments for Isaac:

Isaac Adapts (TM).

That's his thing. He's not a soldier, not a badass action hero. Instead, he's a survivor, who uses everything available to him to win. And boy howdy does he have options here. Hell's Kitchen has turrets he can reprogram, cameras he can use to track Fio, and ample locales to prep a deathtrap at. And he'll find ways to do it with his kinesis module (basically a gravity gun), too. Better still, he has access to Stasis, a super severe temporal slowdown projectile. If it lands on Fio, she's just done, slowed to an absolute crawl. And it likely will, since that tank of hers is a nice big target!

In terms of weaponry, the standouts in Isaac's arsenal are his pulse rifle (an assault rifle weapon in futuretech style, equipped with a nade launcher in case it's needed to blow up the Slug), the Seeker Rifle (a sniper rifle, perfect for wiping things out from afar) and the Contact Beam, a mining particle accelerator that can fire a projectile at absolutely lunatic speeds, impossible for anyone to dodge once it's fired. All he needs is one clean shot to end things, and he's excellent at working under pressure. No reason he won't find it, and when he does, victory will be his.

Arguments for Fio:

This is pretty straightforward. Fio severely outclasses Isaac as a fighter, has the advantage of a tank to protect her, and even has the better ordnance too. Her guns are actual guns designed to defeat extraterrestrial entities and huge warmachines, not tools repurposed to defeat reanimated dead humans. Better still, if the events of Metal Slug's various games (which I'm assuming most people have played at least a bit) give any room for doubt, she's superhuman. The intro of Metal Slug 3D shows this (the various feats more or less apply to all of the playable members equally) and Metal Slug Attack's cutscenes corroborate it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMDBpc2VTzU

So she's way fast, has weapons that punch holes in building sized enemies, and a tank too to hide within. What does Isaac got? Hi-tech has proven to flop against her. This is an easy gg.

Fio Germi has challenged Isaac Clarke to a fight! Location of the fight: Hell's Kitchen - It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here. With martial law enforced, riots out on the streets and buildings boarded up, this New York neighbourhood has seen better days. All buildings and locales are accessible, and are as seen in the first visit to the location in Deus Ex if applicable, including the Warehouse district and NSF headquarters. Security systems are currently offline, but may be reactivated as appropriate, and cameras are online and active. No enemies or NPCs are present, though any medical and repair bots will be present and function as normal. Attackers will begin at JC's landing point after his visit to Battery Park, while defenders will begin at Paul Denton's apartment. Which side will win?

Guidelines

-The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
-The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of executing a prearranged battle plan.
-Unless stated otherwise, characters have access to their full arsenal of abilities and equipment. They may not always work at full power, however (e.g. a petrifying spell may have only a partial hindering effect not seen in gameplay or even fail outright against sufficiently powerful mercenaries). Use your own discretion.
-No mercenary can ever start in a location where they would die instantly, destroy the arena merely by existing in it, or end up ringed out of the terrain before abilities. If there's no room within a terrain to fit them, the terrain will stretch out until there's at least one yard of available, moving, safe space. Attacks may not damage the terrain enough to cause automatic deaths or ring-outs, save with a concerted effort.
-Mercenaries are considered 'downed' when defeated, unable to be roused except through a revival technique. A revival technique cannot affect a mercenary whose physical body has been completely destroyed and will not relocate them away from danger (ex. falling off of the terrain, being impaled, falling in lava), unless it would naturally do so in its own universe.
-There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

-Bold your votes.
-You do not need to justify for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
-Leaders cannot vote for their own teams, but they are free to argue their case.
-If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
-This match will end in 24 hours.

Fio Germi is as she appears in the Metal Slug series and King of Fighters: Maximum Impact 2 (so shes not necessarily dying in one hit). She is equipped with her Tonfa, Hatchet, Handgun, Big Heavy Machine Gun, Flame Shot, Laser Gun, Rocket Launcher, Enemy Chaser, Drop Shot, Super Grenade, and a healthy supply of Fire Bombs. She is piloting the SV-001 with Armour-Piercing Rounds equipped, and may embark and disembark from it as normal.

~VS~

Isaac Clarke is as he appears across the Dead Space series. He is in top mental condition and his RIG, modules and weaponry are all considered to be fully upgraded. He brings with him a Plasma Cutter, Pulse Rifle, Seeker Rifle, Contact Beam and Flamethrower, as well as abundant ammo, stasis cells, and two large medpacks.

Squall in general gets a lot of good showcases in Dissidia, yeah. The example of him straight up fighting his way out of a timestop is from there and it's likely to be canon compliant (since it's vs Ultimecia), and he's generally just portrayed as a very heavy hitter relative to the other warriors of light. If you want to say he's notably stronger than DK, hey, be my guest! He's way overdue for a proper update to FF8 that lets him show off his powers, tbqh

Chaeix posted...

slow to post this but according to mercs chat the calculus we are dealing with is

dk > squall > kiryu > dk

we're stuck in a time loop my friends, my head hurts

I can only speak for myself here, but the reason I hold that stance is that Kiryu mostly punches above his weight class by severely martially outskilling his opponents. He's not the actual strongest or toughest yakuza in his universe, but he's the most flexible and brilliant fighter. The issue is that I feel Squall severely outskills him. Kiryu has survived shit like getting shot at by a minigun, but Squall survived his archenemy putting him in a timestop and surrounding him with magical projectiles from every single direction and still escaped unscathed. Kiryu can't meaningfully blindside him if Ultimecia failed to do it with something so unbelievably abusive and broken. Instead the way to beat Squall is to overpower him, and DK is better at that than Kiryu is.

I have to emphasize btw: all of the above is just battle cutscenes in one fight. Gaiden Kiryu is his peak, it's not even worth arguing otherwise, and he also faces his strongest opposition there IMO. You can basically riff on that game and have everything you need. And I do think Kiryu gets enough of a power boost there to beat DK.

...Also man I forgot that the argument about 'he just gets tossed around' is literally seen in Yakuza Gaiden because Kiryu fights a guy who cuts him repeatedly with a katana, takes a three story dive through glass to a straight up fall to the hard ground below, THEN strings the dude who ragdolls him around so hard he ends up being tossed a story upward, and his response is to just go 'two can play that game' and beat him in a straight up fistfight. Like, no, Kiryu has dealt with absurd brute strength before. He still won in the end.

KamikazePotato posted...

Even if you take all of Kiryu's disparate weirdness across 8 Yakuza games and combine it into one super-Kiryu that doesn't actually exist, he's not beating DK. Spiderman threads just ends up with DK tossing him around. Explosive cigarettes are much less damaging than what DK deals with in his boss battles. DK is simply much stronger and tankier, and reasonably faster too.

Are they really much less damaging? The big question mark for DK is his durability now, because he dies in four hits with a maxed out healthbar against serious opposition, and like one or two otherwise. I don't think he can really soak as many blows as you feel he does. Dish em, yeah, but when was the last time DK took something on the chin and didn't sell?

KamikazePotato posted...

Like punching through concrete is crazy for a human to do, sure. DK has an entire new game where he effortlessly destroys the entire environment for funsies. No Yakuza character is going to be as tanky either. This is just a general power mismatch.

The counterpoint is that Kiryu has spy supertech at his peak, including shit like jet boots, spiderman threads, drones and explosive cigarettes. He's not really at 'for a human' anymore, he pushes a bit past it. And that's really all that's needed when he severely outskills DK

Kamekguy posted...

Kiryu would surrender the instant he saw DK supporting a small child.

They would then decide it based on if Pauline or Haruka is a better singer.

This is the actual fight. Could Haruka outsing Pauline? And could Kiryu back her up better? Imo yes

LiquidOshawott posted...

Wait are we theorizing Sans is only Uber powerful against evil people

I dont think its that, hes just not motivated unless they are bad.

but the former does make it fun against your favorite evil character

It's not really theorizing. Sans' KARMA speeds up its draining the more it stacks and it cannot stack past the max of a person's soul integrity, in pure mechanic terms. A pacifist will have less HP (representing determination to keep on fighting in Undertale) as a rule than someone hardened to violence and with a will to kill, and so they will stack up a lesser max amount of karma. It's complicated but the gist of it is if you're a goody two shoes and get hit by ten lasers you will end up at 1 HP and so will someone who's rotten and vile...but the second guy will end up there quicker, as their racked up karma will be more corrosive.

Mewtwo59 posted...

This Donkey Kong isn't the Donkey Kong from Donkey Kong, is it? Because Sans is a lot more effective against that one.

Should be DK Junior I assume. So he's rather more decent Cranky 'Original' Kong

KamikazePotato posted...

I don't think Sans' attacks do damage based on karma. He's just hitting you.

They certainly do. 'You feel your sins crawling on your back' is not metaphorical there. Sans is using the misdeeds you committed to hurt you.

DK smashes.

Can he deal with Sans' karmic barrages? No. But DK's karma is really quite clean. He has done some mischief but I don't think he has ever done something that would really raise his LoVE. Put Sans up against Luca Blight and I vote Sans without a second thought. Not so with a more heroic character.

Yeah, I'm not SUPER confident but I feel DK wins here, probably. Basically I see it this way:

-If Magus is at his PC power levels DK stomps. Way way way stronger than that version.
-If Magus is at his peak before the succ beam, I think he does way better, but the issue is he needs space to cast and DK can get in on him and overpower him. Magus has to kill him very quickly and IDK if I think DK sells that hard. He's dealt with magic before.
-Magus' arsenal can potentially not function outside of his big guns. If he leads with elemental spells it buys DK time to close in as he heavily mitigates their damage.

It's close, but I think the issue is DK has a lot of intangibles and Magus doesn't. Magus needs specific things to go right for him to win, and his chances get rickety if they go wrong.

OK, that makes sense. That makes me wonder how good Magus' physical defense is relative to the rest of the party at 99 now. It should be high if that's the idea, I think?

Magus has the firepower to leave a dent in Lavos, who is pretty damn tough. On the other hand, DK has clothes that actively grant major elemental resistances to I think all of the elements Magus uses except shadow (but not all at once). On the third hand, Magus has Black Hole, which probably helps slow DK down even if it doesn't kill him, but I don't know if he can just send it and keep casting, or has to channel it for as long as he wants it to exist. I feel like this is decided pretty quickly, because Magus is no melee master so if DK closes in he just breaks his back, but Magus does have genuinely beefy spellcasting.

Leonhart4 posted...

He loses to a Frog with a magical sword

On the other hand though, this also happens in his sanctum, where he is fortified and much more powerful. It's very likely Magus had rituals prepped within his middle ages lair that he lost once taken from it, and I don't think they would apply here at all. They sure don't in the Zeal-era rematch where you can permanently kill him, IIRC.

For me Hysilens worked OK if a bit rushed just off the story, but I feel her AIW did the exact opposite of Cerydra's. Instead of sinking her, it elevates her, because it's just really well written and shows off the rapports she can have with other characters (frankly excellent chemistry with Aglaea in particularwe get to see just how different young Aggy was with being blunt as a sledgehammer about Hysi's drip being godawful, compared to the much more mature ruler we met in 3.0!). I ended up wanting to see more of her, whereas I feel any time spent on Cerydra is just, a waste of space as you said.

I think your take is basically what Hoyo wanted to do. Cerydra does in fact suck incredible ass as a person, is vain, egocentric and megalomaniacal, and basically wants to do things her way and drag everyone else down with her. It's why her ultimate fate is a pathetic death as Hysilens finally after countless cycles rejects her hot mess and walks away, denying her the theatrical backstab or loyal retainer mercy kill she wanted, forcing her to ignominiously kill herself and have no one left to witness her demise, and thus proving that she could not subjugate the world as she wanted, and particularly not the person who most trusted her and whom she most cared for. But I think they just wrote it absolutely terribly, with profoundly dull segments like the front chunk of the banquet (we are given zero reason to care for her retinue because the baseline writing in the MSQ is too rushed, and the segments that actually got me to give a fuck came after it was done in sidequests that should have been unskippable and integrated), and the fact the game fed us two completely contradictory thesis statements at the climaxes of the MSQ and her AIW. The game wants us to sympathize with Cerydra enough to roll for her, with some utterly unbelievable things like her Redditor-ass geopolitics reaction to witnessing our memory of Belobog (you cannot convince me she is politically savvy enough to grasp that the IPC's capitalism sucks rancid ass off just a couple lines by Cyrene yet doesn't see that she's being manipulated by Lygus and the Destruction at all, or how nonsensical her final line to Cyrene is. The clash between 'I want to be forgotten' and 'I want to serve as a cautionary tale' is just, bad writing. You categorically cannot have both. There's a really compelling character idea within Cerydra, and it will never bloom because she was executed like complete ass and deeply incoherently. I think the best way to think of her is that the Cerydra we see in the MSQ is an abortive attempt and her AIW is basically what they actually wanted to do, and just kinda move on from her. She's too damaged goods to bother with expanding on her in the future.

PS: Also, she's just...deeply uncharismatic? Like it's not clear why people would die for her. I can believe her being a genius strategist, but the fact she has the respect and admiration of the other Chrysos Heirs is nonsense because she's clearly painted as an Alexander-type figure (who conquers and wins but never builds anything so it's up to her successors, specifically Aglaea, to pick up the pieces and go 'holy shit NEVER AGAIN') but she's no Alexander in terms of personal charisma and appeal. It's...really super duper halfbaked, to be truthful.

DeathChicken posted...

Because he can stab through your frontline party in-game to kill your backline, even if you're bodyblocking them with a massive griffin. That's a thing he does

That's a valid explanation and does change things. I don't think Luca can beat DK by default if the latter can stay in Bananza form, but Pauline is a much easier point of failure, and base DK is good but not Luca good.

My question is, how does Luca even hurt Pauline? DK is twice his height and Pauline is behind him, and it's not like DK is going to let her get hurt.

Chaeix posted...

so i still view sharp things as an obstacle for DK

is the argument here that he grabs on to luca before he gets slicey sliced or stabby stabbed

No, my thought process is moreso as follows:

A) DK has life refills as a baseline effect in Bananza, that just restore him to fighting fit condition when he'd die. If you think they apply, then he can close in on Luca pretty recklessly and crush him.

B) If you think they don't (you might say they're too game mechanicky for you), consider that DK is big. Like, way big. When in Kong Bananza, Pauline reaches up to like, his knee if that. Even if you apply Mario size to her (so she is like 1 meter tall as a teen before becoming a tall and svelte grown up), DK is a four to five meter tall gorilla while powered up. A sword stab is going to hurt, but Luca has a ton of raw meat to cut through before he does DK any lasting damage. I can try finding a pic if this is in doubt, but for now assume DK is Very Large (TM) and that means he gets to control the terms of engagement.

C) If you think DK's sheer size doesn't indicate any concomitant durability, then it's safe to assume DK himself knows just how bad sharp things can hurt, because he does face stabby and spiky things in his journey. He has Elephant Bananza's vortex to extend his reach beyond punching range, as well as just being able to fling explosive chunks of terrain at Luca, basically without limit. It's on Luca to approach, as he has no ranged offense, not on DK.

D) And if you think better ability to play footsies with longer limbs, ostrich form egg bombs, and explosive gold chunks are not enough...DK can also insult Luca to death. I'm not kidding here, if he has Pauline with him, she can fling exclamations at Luca that actually cause damage. Imagine someone yelling POW! and you get POW'd in the face. Luca could cut these down, but the point is that DK doesn't even have to do an unguarded approach if you think he absolutely, positively MUST get into punching range to do anything, you can see here that Pauline can extend the reach of his strikes: https://youtu.be/5GCuwwcXrzk?t=105

So yeah, like...what's a raw bruiser like Luca going to do here? Genuine question. There's so many different angles DK has to just ruin him. You don't have to just accept one of them. Pick whichever you think makes the most sense. The only way you vote Luca IMO is if you think he just statchecks DK so hard that the lack of options doesn't matter, and I think THAT requires a much harder sell than the reverse, IMO IMO IMO.

Hbthebattle posted...

does luca have any resistance to timeslow

Not AFAIK, so DK should be able to outspeed him.

DK.

He has the reach advantage, a massive speed advantage, and utterly dwarfs Luca in terms of strength. Less durability, but I would also argue he outskills Luca, who is rather a brute, whereas DK could keep up with a superhumanly skilled boxer while clowning around. I don't see how Luca wins at all, he's gapped here.

Kafka takes it. I think she has too many small advantages in her favour. Coming from a much stronger universe, her path specifically deriving from a being that goes against the currents of time so time slows may not affect her, relying on an energy that has allowed for superhuman feats...I think DK is very good, but Kafka probably has his number between a range, agility, and countergimmick advantage.

Thorn posted...

is the battle with dk in elio's script? because if it is she might know exactly what she has to do to win

...or lose if the script calls for it >.>

(Elio is basically the boss of the group she's a part of and can basically see all possible futures and assigns "scripts" for the group members to follow to try and guide the universe to a particular future)

I would say that it's a strange interlude the script said 'this is gonna happen' and little else about, tbh. makes it more fun to argue.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

I think this is incredibly difficult because lore power versus what's been shown on screen for HSR is such a vast chasm of difference with very little exception.

Like, supposedly this is Kafka

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/3/3ace1f0b.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/d/d7a67ff0.jpg

But what does that actually mean.

She certainly doesn't seem like a planet buster in the game yet. But maybe she is!

We saw what this means. Kafka doesn't destroy a planet by blowing it up, she destroys it by plunging it into a massive civil war and making all the inhabitants kill each other in a massive orgy of violence (see the Jepella Rebellion short, that one's all her). There's characters who can blow up planets by main force, Kafka is not one of them. She's just dangerous enough to ruin a planet if she's allowed to use her Spirit Whisper.

Making a somewhat more detailed writeup of Kafka, since people may not be familiar with her:

-She has a degree of either bullet control, or bonkers precise aim. At one point, while fighting the protagonists of HSR (and really, really not tryingit's explicitly clarified that she's sandbagging because she wants to lose the fight but has to make it interesting to avoid raising suspicions), she raises her guns up into the air, straight up, and seemingly fires them wildly. This forces a precognitive character to reveal herself and quickly alter the trajectories of the bullets mid flight so they collide into each other harmlessly, as otherwise they would've killed everyone confronting Kafka (she immediately gives up after, as her entire goal was to get said character to show up and take her prisoner for a scheme). I don't know a lot of gunners who can make upwards gunfire into a huge threat.

-Her uzis are not basic uzis. Aside from Path Energy (the thing pumping up the characters of HSR to do special feats, which scales up hard. Like, really hard. Like, the people with the most path energy have cleaved planets in half super casually) making any attacks stronger, they pack enough power to cut through solid ground and steel and leave laser trails behind. This is likely the way her Path Energy manifests in combat, as she can also supercharge simple silken strings to turn them laserlike in turn. In other words, the actual major threat is that she's channeling the energy of the end of all things into her strikes (as that is what the Finality path is about).

-Pathstriders are tough. Like, real tough. The baby-ass Trailblazer (protagonist of HSR) who was legit 'born' (its complicated but tl;dr a body was made for them and they got punted into it when the game starts) maybe a week before what I'm about to discuss, gets impaled by an enormous lance in combat in their first real scuffle after becoming a Pathstrider that is basically the size of their chest, and then proceeds to pull said lance out of their chest, get up and continue fighting against the enemy who sent it. Said enemy then basically pulls a Sephiroth and drops an enormous meteor on top of the Trailblazer and their allies, and just bracing their guard is enough for TB to facetank it. This is not something that happens just in gameplay, mindthe fight is a forcible tutorial where you HAVE to use a damage mitigating skill to survive. Various lore collectibles corroborate that this is just a standard feature of all Pathstriders, as the energy that circulates within their bodies allows them to withstand thing that would kill normal people like extreme temperature variances or dangerous attacks without issue.

-She possesses the ability of Spirit Whisper. This is an effect that allows her to utilize her voice to manipulate others into doing her bidding, a sort of psychic domination. However, this isn't the only effect it has. Spirit Whisper is also an extremely strong mood neutralizer. One of Kafka's allies, Blade, is an immortal (as in he regenerates from any wound he takes) who has been driven hopelessly mad by his regenerative powers. At baseline, he is a senseless berserker. However, Kafka's ability to Spirit Whisper lets her calm him down, allowing him to be functional enough to perform complex tasks, such as driving a car or infiltration, for prolonged periods of time. Range is not a meaningful limitation, and neither does it have to be selective. Case in point from one of her lore tidbits:

"...This woman's name is Kafka, a new Hunter without any information on file, and belongs to no particular organization. She has an ability called Spirit Whisper that allows her to hypnotically manipulate others through language. Recently, she has appeared in Riverland, New Babylon. She was seen communicating with its overchief, Shilde, and absconded with him in witness of 143 people. She then made an appearance at a clothing store and stole a black jacket, two white shirts, and a red dress with 6 witnesses. After that, she was seen by 28 people at an old music record store where she purchased nothing. Before she emerged at the Riverland Guard Station to claim her rewards, she was spotted at the central park with 2695 citizens present. We want Kafka's head, as her lethal crimes cannot go unpunished."

Why does this matter? Because it's likely she can shut down DK's Bananzas by psyching him and Pauline out of a singing mood. If you can't sing well and get in the mood, you can't Bananza. This means Kafka doesn't have to deal with a lot of DK's gimmicks at all.

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There's a bunch of other stuff to cover but this is probably enough to start setting the stage. If anybody has any questions I'm all ears. I think this is a weird matchup but also kinda, uh, lopsided against DK, knowing both characters. I'm not sure how he deals with someone who can just shut down his best tricks and actually take his punches while ranging him really hard.

Bossman_Coolguy posted...

I'd suggest that a human or I guess a dead human or whatever the fuck plan man is smarter than an ape

Combat skill isn't really a function of smarts. I don't think anyone would argue Sora from Kingdom Hearts has way better combat instincts than Alucard. Sora is also way dumber than Alucard is.

UF8 posted...

while it is still a fair point, arguing with being able to react to little mac in a fight he's also supposed to lose to mac from a gameplay standpoint is an interesting defense lol

I picked that example precisely because he's supposed to lose it. DK starts that fight giving None Fucks (TM) and grandstanding, and when he dials it up, it's still at barely the level of 'he's annoyed'. He still gives Mac the fight of his life at that level. We see what DK looks like when fully tryharding in Bananza's home stretch and it's way above that in both how he adapts to complexities and how much he brings to the table. If DK giving few fucks can still make a super technical fighter sweat that hard, why would he not use his full breadth of skill and fighting instincts in a fight to the death?

Chaeix posted...

real question is DK smart enough to immediately react to alucard going into mist form and trying to do that before alucard just like, moves elsewhere and reforms? DK is a monster strengthwise but imo he's nowhere near a split-second-reaction strategist.

even in cloud of bats form, would DK's first instinct be 'oh there's bats now i better suck them up'

DK has great fighting instincts, yes. He is a an overwhelmingly good boxer just off them, adjusting quickly to the tricks of Little Mac, and Bananza requires he quickswap to complete multiple objectives. Nothing really indicates he'd be bad at using the tools he has (and he has Pauline to remind him of them if you think that's not enough, for whateve reason). Basically let me pose you this question: what showing does he have that suggests he can't fight adaptively? Being a big silly oaf doesn't diminish his battle prowess.

KamikazePotato posted...

Leaning Alucard because of how slippery he is. Mist Form feels like a direct DK counter.

DK specifically has a counter to mist form in Elephant form. The elephant form vortex disperses gases, including poisonous mists, and it's powered by the Banandium Root's energy which has mystical and supernatural properties, so should work just fine against him. It's unclear if it would harm Alucard, kill him, or just CC him for however long it takes for him to recompose himself but I don't think it does anything at all here.

This is a much tougher match than Red IMO. Maybe DK can win, maybe he can't, it's pretty tough. I think his physical might dwarfs Alucard's and he won't be able to escape very easily if grabbed, but IDK if DK can get his hands on Alucard without getting absolutely chopped up. I'm gonna wait for some arguments here.

DK stomps.

Not a lot to say here. Literally nothing the Pokemon can do saves them from DK slowing down time with Snake Bananza and then yeeting them off into the sky like Team Rocket.The only argument is Pikachu saving Red's bacon by using Charm and making DK think of bananas, but DK historically can tell the difference between the genuine article and things are only kinda like it.

I'm definitely interested in how this continues because from my own experiences, wiki options suck ass. There's alternatives (pbworks comes to mind) but they're soooooo clunky to work with. Here's hoping we find a decent place to put everything in that isn't subject to a big corp's bullshit too much.

I would concede Squall has better reflexes/faster strike speed, but DK is 100% faster on the move than Squall by any metric. He is not outrunning the big guy, which is a problem because DK doesn't need to overwhelm Squall's guard with too many strikes to defeat him, he can just go elephant and give him the succ for example

I feel Squall hitting Pauline implies a level of coldbloodedness he is not going to go for at all. He doesn't know she's invulnerable and he's not a child killer.

Chaeix posted...

is vitality the same as HP

No, Vitality is physical defense. It's not an instant kill, only a 'take more damage' effect. DK's selling point has never been sky high defense though. Moreso being an HP tank.

MajinZidane posted...

How does DK handle magic? Does he have any way to prevent being absolutely peppered by Squall with Debuffs and magic from a distance?

You cite his endgame durability, but how's his durability after Mercs Squall finally has Meltdown available to him?

Meltdown Drops enemy Vitality to zero, amplifying physical damage.

As mentioned, he can literally just absorb most of the magic Squall dishes out, and has cutscene feats for shaking off status effects. Pauline can also help him break out of them with her singing, too.

Chaeix posted...

Can I get a more clear idea of how DKs general parameters have increased?

Sure! Let's go over them rq with a couple examples:

-Strength: One of the mission series you get is demolishing buildings made of brick and concrete. The last of them (before the postgame, at any rate) involves destroying an entire three-story building, plus enemies within, in 40 seconds. DK pulls it off (it's required for 100% completion). As mentioned above, one clean punch from Super Saiyan DK (which is a form he does have access to here) sends King K. Rool, who is like twice the size of Super Saiyan DK (who is in turn like twice as big as DK himself, and he's not a tiny baby) flying off into the horizon. He's got punching power in spades for sure.

-Speed: DK's Zebra Bananza is fast enough to run on water without sinking. The speed required to do this isn't an exact science, but Zebra form is also bigger than base DK. Keeping this in mind, a normal human would need to run at 60 MPH to keep themselves from sinking. I think that's a perfectly reasonable conservative estimate for what we see him doit could very, very easily be higher, because a giant-ass zebra-gorilla is way heavier than a person by orders of magnitude, but 'DK can run as fast as a car' has a nice ring to it I think.

-Durability: This is probably the hardest one to quantify, as DK doesn't really take hits on the chin that manage to keep him down in Bananza. Anything that knocks him out is moreso weird magic like a petrification attack (he breaks out of it dw) than anything else. For whatever it's worth though, a big part of Bananza's endgame is (spoilering just in case) That DK's past foes come back to the scene and hit just as hard now as they did way back when. An unupgraded baseline DK gets oneshotted by them. A fully maxed endgame DK can take about 3-4 times that much punishment and is bing chillin, even without counting HP refills.

Hopefully this helps clear things up a bit? I can go find videos if any of this needs to be substantiated, of course.