Board 8 > Inviso and AdmiralZephyr Rank Survivor Winners!

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Naye745 posted...

yeah this bottom tier isnt going to be that controversial i suppose. i mean, i am with the viewpoint that winning immunities when you have to, to win the game, isn't something to be discounted entirely (or viewed as a detriment even), but that is still only a small portion of the game and rarely a winning move

This is not a case of somebody winning a bunch of immunities at the endgame, or even someone winning immunities they NEEDED to win at the endgame. After all, you have plenty of winners that won three or more late-game immunities. Hell, some of them were big enough threats that, by the end-game they NEEDED those wins. But there is a difference between someone who got themselves into a good position and just reached a point late in the season where no matter how well they played, they would be the natural target...and players like Fabio/Mike. Both of them wound up in a bad position early in the season and needed to win a FUCKTON of challenges to survive. 5 and an idol for Mike, 3 and two quits for Fabio.

The thing about players that rely on immunity wins to make the finals is that you cannot guarantee that any given player will have the correct series of challenges needed for their success. Imagine that some of those challenges Mike lost popped up in the middle of his challenge streak. Maybe he loses and assuredly goes home. That's why it's tough to respect players whose strategic game lacked enough that they had to rely solely on challenges.
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Inviso posted...

3 and two quits for Fabio.

Well 4, but the first was before he was in any real danger of being voted out.
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The hard thing about ranking the "immunity run" winners is that winning immunity is part of the game.

Bob at least did something other than winning immunity. Fabio didn't.
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You're my boy, Bob!!!!
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bwburke94 posted...

The hard thing about ranking the "immunity run" winners is that winning immunity is part of the game.

Bob at least did something other than winning immunity. Fabio didn't.

The thing is though, when I look at winning Immunity (and even finding the HII), I sort of have two views on it. There's winning it because you'd go home if you didn't without question. And winning it so that your ideal boot target didn't. Like, I don't think Kim would have been in real danger of going home if she didn't have any of the Immunity wins that she did.

31. Bob Crowley (Survivor: Gabon)

Much like Fabio, Bob was a player that had little real control in the game, ended up in the lesser alliance at the merge, and only made the finals on the backs of three immunity wins. And I think some people don’t respect Bob as a winner for good reason. The guy couldn’t even answer a jury question asking why he deserved to win Survivor. However, Bob’s ineptitude just doesn’t quite measure up to the utterly terrible gameplay of Mike, or the good luck and good fortune Fabio had in Nicaragua.

For starters, even though Bob was just a number, he still played a good enough game to be in the majority alliance on both Kota and NuKota. His first time in the minority was after a second swap (something that hadn’t really happened outside of All-Stars), and even then, Marcus got targeted instead of Bob. And Bob’s alliance falling apart and ending up in the minority can at least PARTLY be attributed to that swap fucking them over. Granted, the alliance falling apart probably aided Bob IMMENSELY, but the point is he ended up in the minority through no fault of his own.

Bob’s alliance loses Marcus, then loses Charlie, and Bob COULD have gone next…but to be fair, I don’t think any of the Kotas really stood out as being particularly threatening in comparison to the others (aside from Marcus as their leader.) But still, Bob made his fake idol and played nice with Sugar, and this is the move that ultimately wins him the game. He played nice with Sugar, fucked over Randy with a fake idol, and this ingratiated him with Sugar. Yes, he started his immunity run at the final seven, but he MIGHT not have needed that immunity since he just helped the Fangs out, and Corinne is still there to take some of the heat off of him.

But yeah, Bob starts winning immunity and becomes one of the “good people” in Sugar’s mind, so once she starts picking off the “evil” Fang alliance, he’s still got that ace in the hole. Granted, if he loses immunity, I don’t think Sugar would have any say in anything because she’s just one vote. But regardless, Bob wins immunity at 7, 6 and 5, and he’s in the final 4 where he FINALLY loses immunity to Susie of all people.

This is one of the key things that puts him above Fabio for me. Yes, he won three challenges to keep the heat off his back, but he didn’t win that crucial immunity to guarantee his place in the finals. No, instead, he played up that alliance with Sugar (which, admittedly, was brought about by her own daddy issues, but still), and he got her to force a tie, allowing him to dust Matty in the fire-making tiebreaker. From that point on, he had four allies on the jury, and that was enough. Yeah, Randy was a swing vote, but Randy voted with his alliance, so there you go. Bob’s not a great winner by any means, but he’s good enough to avoid the bottom two.
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All good, @AdmiralZephyr
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That's who I was anticipating but my phone is being a jackoff so it will still have to wait
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Is it fair to say that Fabio is the least strategic winner ever?

Like, yeah, Mike had a BAD strategy, but at least he engaged that portion of the game
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Jakyl25 posted...

Is it fair to say that Fabio is the least strategic winner ever?

Like, yeah, Mike had a BAD strategy, but at least he engaged that portion of the game

I dunno. I think Fabio and Bob both had the issue where they were at the bottom of their alliance early on (if they even had a majority alliance), but they were also JUST threatening enough to need immunity wins, so they couldn't really strategize no matter what.
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33. Bob Crowley (Survivor: Gabon)

I actually picked to win after the first episode when he was highlighted as a likable, useful old guy. To this day I'm still not sure how it actually happened. He didn't do anything strategic, and even when he was in the majority he was the lowest on the totem pole. He only won a few crucial immunities in the middle, and he actively and needlessly pissed off Randy. The only reason he got to the final three was because Sugar wasn't content pissing off 6/7 jury members, she needed to stab Matty in the heart and complete the set, and the only reason he won was because Marcus/Charlie/Randy's preference went Abstain > Bob > Suicide, Corinne of all people being the lone juror who was genuinely happy to cast her vote for Bob.
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Aww I liked Bob haha. Though yeah he was probably not very good competitive-wise.
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those damn onions man

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PURE CHALLENGE WHORE TIER:

31. Bob Crowley (Gabon)
32. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Nicaragua)
33. Mike Holloway (Worlds Apart)
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darkx's tier list

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30. Mike Holloway (Survivor: Worlds Apart)
31. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Survivor: Nicaragua)
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33. Bob Crowley (Survivor: Gabon)
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Average Rankings Thus Far:

Judson "Fabio" Birza - 31.5
Mike Holloway - 31.5
Bob Crowley - 32
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Also, darkx, I would argue that what Bob did to Randy wasn't "needless". He's at the bottom of his tribe and is a likely target moving forward. What he did may have appeased Sugar so that he didn't NECESSARILY need immunity over Corinne the next round. Plus, Sugar deciding to pity him at the final four, regardless of her own daddy issues, may have also stemmed from him earning some brownie points by following her orders with regards to Randy.
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I would put Jenna next. Not sure who also fits into that tier.

Edit: Oh wait, Amber.
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@AdmiralZephyr

Whenever you're ready for number 30 (maybe 29 too today), just PM me on Discord so I hear the notification.
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30. Michele Fitzgerald (Survivor: Kaôh Rong)

My bottom tier of winners is really a group of five, but I feel it’s important to separate my bottom 3 (4+ immunity wins at times when there were far more competitors to potentially outlast them) from the other two in the bottom group. Both Michele and my number 29 also fall under the category of “needed multiple immunity wins at the end of the game to reach the finals”, but it’s not QUITE the same as the story behind Bob, Fabio, and Mike’s wins. Those three guys, in addition to their extended immunity streaks, had little to no agency in the strategy of their seasons. This cannot be said about Michele and my number 29, both of whom were involved in strategy and played decent games…but they just happened to be outmaneuvered by stronger players.

In Michele’s case, the thing I will ultimately knock her for is the fact that she lucked out with Joe’s medevac. Much like Fabio lucking out with the Na Onka/Kelly S. quits, I don’t know if I can say with 100% certainty that Michele makes the finals and wins the season if Joe doesn’t leave early. She made it to the final five with a target on her back as a threat, but up to that point, she was in a solid enough position. She had been in the core alliance up until the Scot boot, and even then it was just her being left out of a blindside on someone outside of her own alliance. So I’m not gonna trash Michele for being in the minority. She did a decent job, but Cydney/Aubry were just playing super hard.

But yeah. Joe gets medevaced at the final 5 and saves Michele directly. I say this because the next challenge is one Aubry won, and Michele had no idol to protect her at that point. Now is it a guarantee this challenge would’ve been for immunity? No, but given the layout of the rest of the season, it’s a very strong possibility. If Joe doesn’t go out here, Michele more than likely gets eliminated and isn’t even on this list. Then she wins the final immunity challenge (and the jury challenge), which puts her in the finals with a jury that’s very much in her favor.

I’m not gonna bash her for call it a bitter jury. How they vote is their decision. I’m just saying that Michele, by virtue of not calling the shots that got Debbie, Scot, Julia, Jason and Cydney voted out, gets their five jury votes. And that’s fine. I liked Aubry more as a character, but Michele deserved to win for getting those five votes. I just think Michele lucked out in making it that far in the first place. Also, she benefitted from the whole “jury removal” twist which took away one of Aubry’s strongest advocates (AND prevented a final two, which might’ve worked in Tai’s favor.)
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29. Michele Fitzgerald (Survivor: Kaoh-Rong)

Michele played JUST enough of a better strategic game than Bob, (redacted), and Fabio and JUST enough of a better social game than Mike to outrank them, but don't get me wrong, Michele's win was, for me, a very sour ending to an otherwise above-average season. She faded into the background for a lot of the season in a way that was different than some of the other UTR female winners - without spoiling too much of my list, they were aligned with big-target men who they could have easily thrown under the bus at any given moment but didn't and that was better for their game. They were thinking. Michele just sort of disappeared for large segments of the game, especially the first half where she didn't even have to go to tribal before the merge (a big black spot because she was the weakest physical player on both her original and swapped tribe, so had either gone to tribal she likely would have been given the boot). She made a couple of decent moves toward the end in voting out her closest ally in Julia, securing Sydney's jury vote, and taking away Aubry's most locked-down jury vote in Neal, but other than that she was a totally average player who won in a season where a great player game in second.
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30. Michele Fitzgerald (Kaoh Rong)

PURE CHALLENGE WHORE TIER:

31. Bob Crowley (Gabon)
32. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Nicaragua)
33. Mike Holloway (Worlds Apart)
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darkx's tier list

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29. Michele Fitzgerald (Survivor: Kaoh Rong)
30. Mike Holloway (Survivor: Worlds Apart)
31. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Survivor: Nicaragua)
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33. Bob Crowley (Survivor: Gabon)
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Average Rankings Thus Far:

Michele Fitzgerald - 29.5
Judson "Fabio" Birza - 31.5
Mike Holloway - 31.5
Bob Crowley - 32
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No major disagreements so far. I expect that to change slightly as we go higher, but never super drastically.
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AdmiralZephyr posted...

No major disagreements so far. I expect that to change slightly as we go higher, but never super drastically.

I think that, unless you're someone who's actively looking to defend the people in our bottom 5 (I'm assuming that your 32 and my 29 are one and the same), it's pretty easy putting those five at the bottom. After that, it's more a matter of preference, but these five are pretty weak overall.
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Inviso posted...

(I'm assuming that your 32 and my 29 are one and the same)

Yeah I'm assuming the same thing. I was actually expecting them to be your 30 and was taken aback for a second when Michele popped up instead.
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You ready for one more write-up now then? It's easier to explain the order of this bottom five once they're all revealed.
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Sure let's go.
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I wouldn't have had Mike quite as low but most of these guys are such bottom feeders that it isn't worth that much
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29. Jenna Morasca (Survivor: Amazon)

As the last winner I would rank in the “only won because they got two or more clutch victories at the end of the season” tier, I think Jenna has the least baggage attached to her. She was in the core alliance at the Amazon merge, successfully positioned them as the majority with three outsiders, and really, she only fell from power because Alex fucked up and spooked Rob. If not for that, there’s a very real chance of Jenna making the finals. Now, whether she wins in that scenario is a different story. I don’t know if she could beat Alex or if people would’ve respected a 21-year-old bikini model enough to vote her to win.

End of the day, Jenna got on the outs and she successfully painted herself as the least threatening member of the new minority (despite having won immunity twice by the final 4.) She had to win immunity twice to reach the finals, and she did so. That’s not necessarily a knock against her, but it’s harder for me to respect a winner that NEEDED immunity twice in a row just to reach the finals. That’s not to say there aren’t winners that needed multiple immunities at the end…but in those cases, that was much less “this person is on the outs with the majority, better vote them out” and more “okay, we’ve eliminated the outsiders…maybe we should target a threat next.” Either way, Jenna’s my 29th best winner.
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32. Jenna Morasca (Survivor: The Amazon)

This is one of those jury votes where I actually have to piece it together and see HOW this happened. Heidi and Alex were friends with Jenna so okay. Deena was never going to vote for a man if a woman was sitting up there, fine. Rob was a swing vote, he felt betrayed by both and didn't especially respect either of their games. It's been widely speculated over the years that Christy didn't understand the jury vote and thought she was voting Jenna OUT for Matt to win. And I guess Dave was just satisfied with Jenna's answer to his question? I've never had to go through that win a jury vote before and say "Man, I can't believe ALL of that fell together well enough for the spoiled brat who hardly made any moves and wanted to quit multiple times to win."
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The jury vote isn't hard to explain.

Butch aside and Christy aside, none of the jurors liked or respected Matt, and in fact thought he was anti-social and weird. Christy probably fucked up, but it was still 5-2 without her vote.
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SEMI CHALLENGE WHORE TIER:

29. Jenna Morasca (Amazon)
30. Michele Fitzgerald (Kaoh Rong)

PURE CHALLENGE WHORE TIER:

31. Bob Crowley (Gabon)
32. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Nicaragua)
33. Mike Holloway (Worlds Apart)
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darkx's tier list

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29. Michele Fitzgerald (Survivor: Kaoh Rong)
30. Mike Holloway (Survivor: Worlds Apart)
31. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Survivor: Nicaragua)
32. Jenna Morasca (Survivor: Amazon)
33. Bob Crowley (Survivor: Gabon)
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Average Rankings Thus Far:

Michele Fitzgerald - 29.5
Jenna Morasca - 30.5
Judson "Fabio" Birza - 31.5
Mike Holloway - 31.5
Bob Crowley - 32
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I totally forgot about Michele.
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Peridiam posted...

I totally forgot about Michele.

Thus why Kaoh Rong will end up woefully underappreciated in Survivor history.
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In some respects, I feel bad for Jenna.

She was done no favors in her edit whatsoever. She was a villain post merge until the final two episodes, and the creative storyline was all Matt and Rob (and Deena and Alex). Not saying she was a good winner, but there was a lot of weird mood whiplash and unsatisfying payoff of storylines.
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Mega Mana posted...

In some respects, I feel bad for Jenna.

She was done no favors in her edit whatsoever. She was a villain post merge until the final two episodes, and the creative storyline was all Matt and Rob (and Deena and Alex). Not saying she was a good winner, but there was a lot of weird mood whiplash and unsatisfying payoff of storylines.

Oh yeah. In terms of the WINNER edits, I would say that Jenna has the worst winner edit ever. Susie's probably worst runner-up edit ever.
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Now I wonder who's the last person dark put in his bottom tier since apparently they're on the same level as the bottom five, obviously.

But tiers are pretty arbitrary anyway, so.
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Probably Amber.
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tag read later maybe
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Inviso I gotta say from your write ups alone it seems to me like you think Fabio is worse than Mike
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JetJaguar posted...

Inviso I gotta say from your write ups alone it seems to me like you think Fabio is worse than Mike

Eh, ultimately it comes down to two things:

Mike had to win one more round's worth of immunity than Fabio.

Fabio, while an inept follower, never actively sabotaged his own game to put himself into the bad position he ended up in.
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this seems correct. really hard to drum up much controversy so far. michele should be ahead of jenna though, i think. the one argument you could make for putting michele at least a decent bit higher is that unlike many of these "weaker" winners, she actually went up against the person that "should've won" in the final vote and won anyway, rather than just taking them out before ftc
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The reason my bottom 5 are my bottom 5 is not that they were necessarily weak players. It's more than each of them got into a position of weakness where they needed two or more rounds of immunity. Mike had 6, Fabio 5, Bob 3 or 4, Michele/Jenna had 2...but in Michele's case, she had the added downside of benefiting tremendously from Joe's medevac, given that Aubry won the very next challenge after his elimination, implying she would've won immunity there instead.
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Whenever you're ready, Vis.
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Next page, I'm thinking.
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Boobs
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