Board 8 > Inviso and AdmiralZephyr Rank Survivor Winners!

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I don't expect a TON of people to follow this topic because the Survivor fanbase on this board has seemingly diminished in recent years, but I wanted to do a new project with someone, and the recent RobHasAPodcast discussion of the best Survivor winners has given me reason to want to inject my own, far more correct opinions into the discussion. And who better to do that with than my old SurvivorSucks buddy, @AdmiralZephyr, aka Darkx? So yeah, I'll rank a winner on their gameplay as a winner. This will include a write-up as to why they're being ranked where they are. And then Darkx will provide a write-up of his own, with a number ranking that more than likely will not correspond to my own. I'll try to keep the list updated with combined scores to determine who our combined best winner is as well.

Without further ado, here are the 33 current Survivor winners up for ranking:

Richard Hatch (Survivor: Borneo)
Tina Wesson (Survivor: Australia)
Ethan Zohn (Survivor: Africa)
Vecepia Towery (Survivor: Marquesas)
Brian Heidik (Survivor: Thailand)
Jenna Morasca (Survivor: Amazon)
Sandra Diaz-Twine (Survivor: Pearl Islands)
Amber Brkich (Survivor: All-Stars)
Chris Daugherty (Survivor: Vanuatu)
Tom Westman (Survivor: Palau)
Danni Boatwright (Survivor: Guatemala)
Aras Baskauskas (Survivor: Exile Island)
Yul Kwon (Survivor: Cook Islands)
Earl Cole (Survivor: Fiji)
Todd Herzog (Survivor: China)
Parvati Shallow (Survivor: Micronesia)
Bob Crowley (Survivor: Gabon)
James "J.T." Thomas, Jr. (Survivor: Tocantins)
Natalie White (Survivor: Samoa)
Sandra Diaz-Twine (Survivor: Heroes vs. Villains)
Judson "Fabio" Birza (Survivor: Nicaragua)
"Boston" Rob Mariano (Survivor: Redemption Island)
Sophie Clarke (Survivor: South Pacific)
Kim Spradlin (Survivor: One World)
Denise Stapley (Survivor: Philippines)
John Cochran (Survivor: Caramoan)
Tyson Apostol (Survivor: Blood vs. Water)
Tony Vlachos (Survivor: Cagayan)
Natalie Anderson (Survivor: San Juan Del Sur)
Mike Holloway (Survivor: Worlds Apart)
Jeremy Collins (Survivor: Cambodia)
Michele Fitzgerald (Survivor: Kaoh Rong)
Adam Klein (Survivor: Millennials vs. Gen X)
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Ret 2 Go
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Probably going to have an opposite opinion, but....tag.
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First up for me...

33.Mike Holloway (Survivor: Worlds Apart)

I’m sure there is a certain personal aspect to this ranking, but at the same time, it’s kinda difficult to look at how Mike played in Worlds Apart and legitimately respect his win. There’s a reason why I have a bottom tier of three winners, and Mike epitomizes everything wrong with those three winners’ games from a strategic standpoint.

The short version of why I rank Mike as my worst winner is because he was on the outs and literally needed immunity for the final 9, final 8, final 7, final 6, final 5, and final 4. That’s SIX rounds where Mike would’ve gone home if he wasn’t immune, and he either won, or played an idol EVERY time. My bottom five are all people that needed to win two or more immunities just to reach the finals, but none of them had to win SIX immunities like Mike did.

But bagging on Mike for winning immunities doesn’t quite cover all aspects of why I consider him a bad winner. Like, on paper, I shouldn’t really hold it against him that he had to win six immunities just because he was targeted earlier. But it’s more the fact that he got himself targeted earlier and thus NEEDED to win six immunities that makes me hold it against him. Mike was the leader of the Blue Collars and made a series of shitty decisions that fucked him over, which makes him the only winner in my bottom 5 that directly fucked him/herself over and caused the need for multiple immunity wins.

Let’s recap: Mike had the option of taking out Rodney (which wouldn’t really had negatively impacted anyone since Mike seemed to hold the majority with Dan/Kelly), or Lindsey (which would piss Sierra off and render her an outsider), and he kept Rodney. This bit him in the ass later, because Mike then decided after the swap to piss Rodney off by targeting Joaquin for seemingly no reason (since the other option was Joe, who Mike had no interest in aligning with.) From that point on, Mike was dead to Rodney, and Rodney went around and gathered the numbers to build a majority alliance. But this isn’t even the part where Mike fucked himself, because he was still part of the core numbers.
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No, where Mike fucked himself was the final 9. At that point, Rodney had Carolyn, Tyler, and Will as four of nine. MAYBE Sierra was with them at that point, but Dan was still very much Mike’s buddy. It was basically a 4-4 vote with Sierra in the swing position. But Mike found out Rodney was plotting against him (again, having been excised from Rodney’s alliance as a result of his stupidity in targeting Joaquin too early) and realized he was in danger. In a panic, Mike realizes he needs to secure himself (although I should point out he has an idol at this point, so he’s not in IMMEDIATE danger) so he starts scrambling.

This all happens at the final nine, and there happens to be an auction. Mike knows that there are usually advantages available at auctions, so he holds his money for an advantage. Fine, perfectly fine. Then the letters from home come up. Shirin suggests everyone just spends 20 bucks and get their letter from home, and everyone agrees, including Dan/Carolyn, who were ALSO hoarding their money for the advantage. Everyone buys their letters except Mike, who decides to go back on his word at the last second. Mike actively tells the entire game “Hey, don’t trust a single thing I say.” And worse than that, after fucking everyone over, he then caves and takes his letter anyway, meaning he doesn’t even get the automatic advantage win out of the deal.

Mike of course compounds his self-destruction by interrupting the happiness of the letters from home by immediately launching into an attack on Rodney and his alliance. This guarantees that Dan and Sierra are driven away, ensuring that Mike’s only allies are outsiders like Jenn and Shirin. At this point, he HAS to win immunity, and he does, but he made the game a LOT harder for himself because he just couldn’t play it cool and he had to try and control each and every little thing. And worse than that, he actively pissed off a good portion of the jury. Were he up against Rodney in the final 3, I’m not saying Rodney wins hands down, but Mike might actually struggle because Rodney’s alliance did NOT want to vote for Mike (and Jenn might vote for Rodney.)

So yeah, there you have it. Mike was a winner that needed six immunities to reach the finals. Mike directly put himself in a position to need those immunities, whereas most other “immunity” winners just happened to be numbers in a losing alliance.
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30. Mike Holloway (Survivor: Worlds Apart)

Mike made some decent moves to get himself into a winnable F3 (regardless of the reunion poll, I still believe Rodney would have won against him), but that's really all he has going for him. Other than that he played a poor social game which he irreparably blew up at the auction in a way that few others have ever done before or since, then hid behind immunity to the finals where the fact that he wasn't a snobby rich lady or a shit-tier human being won him a million dollars.

(my write-ups are going to be fairly short compared to Inviso's)
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INVISO'S LIST

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33. Mike Holloway (Worlds Apart)
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darkx's tier list

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30. Mike Holloway (Survivor: Worlds Apart)
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Just making sure some people see this:

@The_Mana_Sword @Raka_Putra @Chaeix @YoRyanetc @GTM @Peridiam @Surskit @bwburke94 @ImTheMacheteGuy @eaedwards6400
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@Naye745 @StormTR @Xuxon @Mega_Mana @DoctorBIind @Nameless2000
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Thanks for the invite. Not sure how soon I can put something coherent togather. I still have a few seasons I feel I should rewatch before judging winners, but odds are I will jump in at some point.
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Wasn't an invite (but thoughts are welcome!). Just making sure people are aware of the topic so it's not me and darkx posting uninterrupted back and forth for about 80 posts.
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I'll tag this. I'm pretty confident who your #1 is, though I don't remember if I knew this before or after a certain season.

Mike is probably worthy of last though. Had he not fucked up so hard at 9 it might be a different story.
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Oh man I kinda forgot how bad the final cast members of Worlds Apart were.

Also ya go my Bob.
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michele too high
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Mike's "move" at the auction was so terrible. Glad he's last.
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ah haha lol
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Taagendaas
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Tag!

Sure I'll watch this. Though I do think "won on their first time" winners have to be ranked above the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time ones just by process of doing it in less tries. But hey.

Is this incorporating all iterations of a winner, or just their win?
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I'm also guessing the next two are Fabio and Bob.

Kinda surprised Jenna isn't included in that bottom tier.
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Tina is still the hottest

mike should be higher on the list

not that much higher, but still...better than jenna, better than bob, probably comparable with fabio
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I didn't watch Worlds Apart and I can understand the criticism of somebody's actions necessitating challenge wins, but I also think challenges are part of the game and dominance in them should be considered a strong asset when rating the quality of someone's game. "Outplay" is just as prominent as "Outwit" after all. I don't see how you can rate a person like Mike low for pissing people off and surviving off immunity when someone like Tony did the same thing and is an absolute top tier winner.
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I'll take a read.
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So I'm always gonna go with someone who controls their Destiny more. At least Mike was able to succeed because of his challenge prowess. It's better than a couple winners who's only move is a win at the end your Fabio or your Jenna. And worse than both of them is Bob who was literally only there because he reminded Sugar of her dad.
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I don't want to give away too much of my write-ups for Tony/Fabio/Jenna/Bob/etc. but I will say that the big black mark on Mike's game that no other winner has (at least not to that degree) is that he actively made destructive decisions that should have completely blown up his game, and after making arguably the worst social move in the history of the game by anyone not named Colton, he was safe straight through to the end and pretty much won because he was sitting next to the only two people in the entire season that the jury liked less than him.

As for the alternative Mike/Rodney/Will final 3...

Rodney gets Sierra, Dan, Tyler, Jenn, and Hali.
Mike gets Shirin and Joe; Carolyn is a toss-up but it doesn't even matter.
Will gets what he deserves.
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I would put Jenn and Hali in the toss up category just because he was close with them towards their under but hot Rod is a fun low ranking winnee
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Tag

I always enjoy reading Survivor-related things.
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I will say that another black spot I put on Mike is that he only survived F7 because he used the Idol, making him essentially the only winner that was in a sense "voted out" in the season they won.

StormTR posted...

I will say that another black spot I put on Mike is that he only survived F7 because he used the Idol, making him essentially the only winner that was in a sense "voted out" in the season they won.

Didn't Bob get voted out? I didn't watch his season either but I know about him making the fake idol in Exile Island which I assume means he was voted out. Could be why he's universally considered a bad winner because from what I've heard about him he doesn't seem like a bad player.
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Tim, which seasons haven't you seen? I'd thought you'd seen all of them.

Bob only received votes at the F4, where it was tied 2-2. They went to fire, he won the challenge and made it to FTC. Bob did make a fake idol from all kinds of things he found (some at exile island), which he then gave to Randy to pretend to use. However he gave it to Randy not to help Randy, but to appease Sugar. Randy never knew the idol was fake, and he resented Bob for that move.

btw you might be mistaking Exile for Redemption Island, which aren't the same. Exile was just banishment with a chance to find the real idol (which Sugar found).

Bob was not a good player, but he was a decent, likable human being. Also the jury was super bitter (one of the most bitter ever) at Susie and Sugar (the other two finalists) and they voted as a bloc to give Bob the win. I don't remember the exact words but when asked why he deserved to win more over Susie/Sugar, Bob said something along the lines of "I don't".
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JetJaguar posted...

StormTR posted...

I will say that another black spot I put on Mike is that he only survived F7 because he used the Idol, making him essentially the only winner that was in a sense "voted out" in the season they won.

Didn't Bob get voted out? I didn't watch his season either but I know about him making the fake idol in Exile Island which I assume means he was voted out. Could be why he's universally considered a bad winner because from what I've heard about him he doesn't seem like a bad player.

No, Bob didn't get voted out/use an Idol or anything. Though he did need a couple of Immunities. Bob gets heralded as a bad winner because he legitimately was only in the Final 3 because Sugar thought he reminded her of her late father, and she decided that her entire game strategy would be to make sure that she lost to him (intentionally, might I add) in the Final 3.

StormTR posted...

Sure I'll watch this. Though I do think "won on their first time" winners have to be ranked above the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time ones just by process of doing it in less tries. But hey.

I can't reasonably dock points from returnee players JUST because it was their second time playing. A good winner is a good winner. That's not to say I don't look favorably on CERTAIN returnees...but it's not an automatic disqualification for me.

Peridiam posted...

Is this incorporating all iterations of a winner, or just their win?

JUST the winning game.

JetJaguar posted...

I didn't watch Worlds Apart and I can understand the criticism of somebody's actions necessitating challenge wins, but I also think challenges are part of the game and dominance in them should be considered a strong asset when rating the quality of someone's game. "Outplay" is just as prominent as "Outwit" after all. I don't see how you can rate a person like Mike low for pissing people off and surviving off immunity when someone like Tony did the same thing and is an absolute top tier winner.

One, I'm not ranking players here. I'm ranking winning games against each other. And when you have winners that NEEDED immunity for upwards of SIX rounds in order to survive, that's a MAJOR negative when you have winners that DIDN'T need to do that to win. Two, Tony DIDN'T do the same thing. Tony played a social and strategic game and never won a single individual immunity challenge.

eaedwards6400 posted...

So I'm always gonna go with someone who controls their Destiny more. At least Mike was able to succeed because of his challenge prowess. It's better than a couple winners who's only move is a win at the end your Fabio or your Jenna. And worse than both of them is Bob who was literally only there because he reminded Sugar of her dad.

I don't understand this post. Why are you giving Mike a pass for challenge wins and then bashing Fabio/Jenna for doing a similar thing?

StormTR posted...

I will say that another black spot I put on Mike is that he only survived F7 because he used the Idol, making him essentially the only winner that was in a sense "voted out" in the season they won.

Jeremy needed the idol to survive too...kinda. That one's a weird situation given the tiebreaker rules and two idols at play.

JetJaguar posted...

StormTR posted...

I will say that another black spot I put on Mike is that he only survived F7 because he used the Idol, making him essentially the only winner that was in a sense "voted out" in the season they won.

Didn't Bob get voted out? I didn't watch his season either but I know about him making the fake idol in Exile Island which I assume means he was voted out. Could be why he's universally considered a bad winner because from what I've heard about him he doesn't seem like a bad player.

No, Bob was never voted out. He just made a fake idol because he was able to do so.
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Peridiam posted...

Tim, which seasons haven't you seen? I'd thought you'd seen all of them.

Bob only received votes at the F4, where it was tied 2-2. They went to fire, he won the challenge and made it to FTC. Bob did make a fake idol from all kinds of things he found (some at exile island), which he then gave to Randy to pretend to use. However he gave it to Randy not to help Randy, but to appease Sugar. Randy never knew the idol was fake, and he resented Bob for that move.

btw you might be mistaking Exile for Redemption Island, which aren't the same. Exile was just banishment with a chance to find the real idol (which Sugar found).

Bob was not a good player, but he was a decent, likable human being. Also the jury was super bitter (one of the most bitter ever) at Susie and Sugar (the other two finalists) and they voted as a bloc to give Bob the win. I don't remember the exact words but when asked why he deserved to win more over Susie/Sugar, Bob said something along the lines of "I don't".

Oh no, I haven't seen a ton of stuff.

I watched Borneo, Australia, Amazon (I think), Pearl Islands, and All-Stars as they aired and remember very little. I didn't watch again until Heroes vs Villains because Russell piqued my interest along with the all star cast. Watched Redemption Island for Russell again. Skipped to Blood vs Water and then luckily stayed on for Cagayan. Skipped again to Cambodia and have watched every season since. I've picked up DVDs for Amazon, Pearl Islands, Micronesia, Tocantins, and Samoa to go back and watch though as those have the most intriguing casts for me.
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I honestly can't remember if I watched Amazon or just saw Jenna and Heidi's playboy because I don't remember Rob. I'm excited to watch him play.
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Wow, yeah, that's a lot you've missed.

Those DVD's are some of my favorite seasons though. Throw in China and you're good.
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Was thinking about adding China, Panama, and Cook Islands to watch before Micronesia to get better acquainted with the Black Widows (Parvati is probably my favorite ever) and see some other highly regarded players like Todd, Terry, Shane, Yul, Ozzy, Aras etc in their primes. Would you recommend the latter two?
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JetJaguar posted...

Was thinking about adding China, Panama, and Cook Islands to watch before Micronesia to get better acquainted with the Black Widows (Parvati is probably my favorite ever) and see some other highly regarded players like Todd, Terry, Shane, Yul, Ozzy, Aras etc in their primes. Would you recommend the latter two?

Panama is top 5 material.

Cook Islands is eh.
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I would definitely recommend them too. My favorite era of Survivor are the middle seasons. Panama is really good. I think you'll like Cook Islands too. I really liked it my first watch, though parts of it are slow and the cast is pretty bloated (although it has a lot of all-stars).

Panama has probably the best tribe (for unintentional comedy) of any season though.
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Darkx, you ready for another write-up?
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I'm actually headed out the door right now. I have a gut feeling one of two people is next, so if I'm right I can post from my phone in about half an hour, otherwise I'll be delayed a bit.
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32. Judson “Fabio” Birza (Survivor: Nicaragua)

While Mike is one hundred percent the worst winner Survivor has had (from a strategic standpoint, mind you), second and third worst are very close and I ultimately pick Fabio as the lesser winner because while both winners needed to win multiple immunities to reach the end, Fabio’s win is JUST slightly less impressive to me because he outright NEEDED every one of his three wins (PLUS two quits from the majority alliance) and the winner just above him didn’t. Also, Fabio was NEVER solidly in the majority alliance, whereas the winner above him WAS.

Fabio wasn’t a huge player in the season. First tribal council, Fabio was one of the three votes in the minority alongside Shannon (voted out) and Alina (dirt squirrel.) From that point on, he was only ever in a majority position by default. He managed to avoid the hatred of his minority status because apparently he was just too much of a doofus and thus Kelly B. took the blame. But then he joined an all-male minority alliance and lost Marty almost immediately. From then on, Brenda went out in a case of the majority cannibalizing themselves, then Na Onka/Kelly S. BOTH quit, and then Benry was targeted over Fabio because Fabio was too dumb to be a threat.

Fabio went on to win three immunities at that point and made the finals, where he narrowly beat Chase for the win. I will give him credit for making himself less threatening than Marty and Benry, but everything else was beyond his control. If Na Onka/Kelly S. don’t quit, then he needs to somehow survive two additional tribal councils that could’ve easily left him without immunity. And it’s important to note that the two quitters both voted Fabio to win, which turned a 4-3 vote into a 5-4 vote in the other direction. I know Alina/Brenda said they voted Chase to keep it close, but still. Fabio lucked out with the circumstances of this season.
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31. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Survivor: Nicaragua)

I love Fabio. He was by far my favorite character in Survivor: Nicaragua, and I was super happy when he won, especially over the other two finalists. But I still don't know how it happened. We joke about Keith bumblefucking his way to the end, but Fabio bumblefucked his way to the win. I don't know this for a fact, I'd have to research it, but off the top of my head I believe Fabio has the worst voting accuracy of any winner. I will cut him some slack and say maybe his social game was better than the edit gave him credit for, especially since the deciding vote came from the person I least expected to vote for him.
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darkx's tier list

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Average Rankings Thus Far:

Judson "Fabio" Birza - 31.5
Mike Holloway - 31.5
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yeah this bottom tier isnt going to be that controversial i suppose. i mean, i am with the viewpoint that winning immunities when you have to, to win the game, isn't something to be discounted entirely (or viewed as a detriment even), but that is still only a small portion of the game and rarely a winning move
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Just to cover some things. I do understand not holding being a returnee against people who win, but I do feel like there's a certain line. Like, for instance, saying Boston Rob was the "best winner ever" seems pretty off to me, since you have winners like Kim who essentially did what he did in RI on their first try.

As well, I consider the Jeremy needing an Idol at F6 thing a bit of an oddity, since he only technically needed one because Kelley had one/needed that, and she was only there to get to the point where she could play that one to make him "need" his because she had/needed the one earlier in the season to vote out Savage.