Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi: SPOILER TOPIC Episode IV: A New Grievance

(+) Yeah! (+)

Who even was Snoke? He was a nothing character who is apparently just evil for the sake of evil. I hated that he was just... irrelevant.

I have the same complaint with Phasma but at least she looked cool.
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"Who even was Palpatine? He was a nothing character who is apparently just evil for the sake of evil." -Someone, somewhere, 1983
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I'm not going to look this up but I wouldn't be curious of Palpatines screen time in OT and Snokes in 7/8.

I don't feel like they would even be close.
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Jeff Zero posted...

"Who even was Palpatine? He was a nothing character who is apparently just evil for the sake of evil." -Someone, somewhere, 1983

Stop making this terrible argument.
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Also in the OT everything is new and I can accept that Palpatine was always there.

Now there's an established universe and a Sith coming out of nowhere and establishing an army with no explanation is poor writing.
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It's not a terrible argument. Palpatine has about the same amount of screentime as Snoke. He wasn't in A New Hope and was barely in Empire Strikes Back.

It doesn't matter where Snoke came from. It's been 30+ years since the OT - that's plenty of time for a new big bad to rise up. They'll probably add backstory to Snoke in supplemental materials, which is exactly what happened with Palpatine.

I think the real issue is that your storytelling standards have risen in the decades since you saw Star Wars 4-6 as a kid.
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It's not poor writing, it's poor worldbuilding. Very important distinction. Where Snoke came from or who he is simply isn't important to the story. Snoke is just a premise that the movie asks you to accept. It basically comes down to how much you care to suspend disbelief about the actual universe, not the story itself. And guess what, I bet most of the audience does not give a shit about being deeply immersed in the Star Wars universe, so it's a perfectly reasonable plan to not explain it at all in the movie and the people who care will get their explanation in the EU.
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Waluigi1 posted...

Jeff Zero posted...

"Who even was Palpatine? He was a nothing character who is apparently just evil for the sake of evil." -Someone, somewhere, 1983

Stop making this terrible argument.

Absolutely not a terrible argument. You wouldn't realize this considering you didn't watch the movies as they came out and grew up as the PT was coming out and thus had exposure to Palpatine.
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Yeah, I can understand both sides of that argument. In the 30 years since the OT, a lot CAN happen, but I'm personally not satisfied with the explanations they've given for the rise of the First Order and Snoke. Look at TFA's opening crawl:

Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister First Order has risen from the ashes of the old Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

Luke certainly hasn't been gone for 30 years. Between that description ("vanished") and what we can ascertain from two movies, it seems like he hasn't been gone THAT long (they felt no need to use a child actor for pupil Ben Solo in TLJ, so I doubt the time difference between Luke/Kylo's clash and TFA is that significant). So in the - probably - few years since Luke's been gone, the First Order has risen and established itself as a dominant force in the galaxy. Out of what, nowhere? Did they first appear after Luke vanished? Have they always been around as a fringe threat, but only made bolder moves in the time after Luke's disappearance? Has Snoke hid out in secret the whole time?

I'm sure, as has been said, most movie-going audiences don't care. I'm sure quite a few even think the way TFO/Snoke have been built up is great. I personally think it's kinda dumb.

The Sequel Trilogy is just that - a direct sequel to the events of the OT. It features all of the same characters in the same timeline and universe, and it's only set one generation later. If you're going in that deep with the continuity, you gotta make the connecting story more... connecting. You can't rely on fanservice alone.
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OliviaTremor posted...

Waluigi1 posted...

Jeff Zero posted...

"Who even was Palpatine? He was a nothing character who is apparently just evil for the sake of evil." -Someone, somewhere, 1983

Stop making this terrible argument.

Absolutely not a terrible argument. You wouldn't realize this considering you didn't watch the movies as they came out and grew up as the PT was coming out and thus had exposure to Palpatine.

No, it is a terrible argument. There is a huge difference between having a evil overlord in an original series and not explaining their backstory and bringing up a new evil overlord in a sequel series that takes place after all the other previous threats were resolved and not explaining anything about them.
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I'm not saying that The Last Jedi doesn't have writing issues, cause it does. I strongly disagree with the notion that it has more writing issues than the other movies. Every SW movie is schlock. Fun, endearing schlock, but still schlock.

And no, evil emperors don't get a backstory pass just because they were the first ones.
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banananor posted...

not giving up in the face of failure and adversity, and trying to help at all is now bland, hyper-arrogant, and one-dimensional? i think this part of your post is just a bad argument

Yes. How much do you need to destroy with your own hands before you start to question whether your "help" is a good idea? For one-dimensional superheros, never. For actual people, it's a difficult question.

Then there's the aspect of his time and the Jedi's time being over. It's like Toph in Korra. She had literally the same arc as Luke, minus the massive guilt over Kylo (though she did have a different guilt). But no one thought her character was ruined or incompatible with her ATLA self.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Luke certainly hasn't been gone for 30 years. Between that description ("vanished") and what we can ascertain from two movies, it seems like he hasn't been gone THAT long

The academy massacre was when Kylo was like 15 and he's 30ish now so it was probably around 15 that Luke has been missing, which makes sense
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Jeff Zero posted...

If the physical humor of The Last Jedi doesn't land, I don't necessarily suggest the evicted fans turn to Farscape

The physical humor was the only stuff that landed! Like, the toad nuns nearly being crushed was actually a well-timed sight gag, if that's the kind of muppet slapstick that Farscape dishes out it won't bother me none

Yeah all the jokes without dialogue were great

The naked Kylo scene for example was hilarious until Rey commented on it and ruined it
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I feel like we keep arguing about the same things over and over and over again.

What I really want to know is how Kylo flew out of the rebel cruiser after he blew up the hangar. Looked like a one way tunnel that he went through.
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I wanna know how Poe had never seen Holdo despite her being the Resistance's second-in-command and despite the Resistance seemingly numbering no more than a few hundred people. What kinda shoddy operation is that.
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OliviaTremor posted...

Waluigi1 posted...

Jeff Zero posted...

"Who even was Palpatine? He was a nothing character who is apparently just evil for the sake of evil." -Someone, somewhere, 1983

Stop making this terrible argument.

Absolutely not a terrible argument. You wouldn't realize this considering you didn't watch the movies as they came out and grew up as the PT was coming out and thus had exposure to Palpatine.

His name wasn't even Palpatine until Phantom Menace. Like novels and shit had it in there but in the movies he was only ever "The Emperor".

Snoke at least got a name right off the bat.
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Just saw it finally.

Liked it. Didn't love it. I have a lot of little problems with stuff in the film and a big problem with something the franchise has done as a whole. But it was okay. It felt more like Rogue One than The Force Awakens most of the time.

Luke was the bomb

Why is everyone crying about how the franchise sucks now.
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Well, you can read my post on the last page for some of my takeaways after a second viewing. This topic has long since reached the point where we're just talking about isolated bits of the movie and Star Wars as a whole.

Also, I think this board actually likes the movie more than other communities. Check out this poll:

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/227-movies-at-the-theater/76143736
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Well, you can read my post on the last page for some of my takeaways after a second viewing. This topic has long since reached the point where we're just talking about isolated bits of the movie and Star Wars as a whole.

Also, I think this board actually likes the movie more than other communities. Check out this poll:

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/227-movies-at-the-theater/76143736

The Movies board is extremely reactionary, for the record. I would not take that place as a decent barometer for most things.

The movie's reception is positive overall, especially among casual moviegoers. In general I think that the more someone associates them with the Star Wars 'fandom' the more they're likely to dislike the movie though.
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KamikazePotato posted...

CaptainOfCrush posted...

Well, you can read my post on the last page for some of my takeaways after a second viewing. This topic has long since reached the point where we're just talking about isolated bits of the movie and Star Wars as a whole.

Also, I think this board actually likes the movie more than other communities. Check out this poll:

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/227-movies-at-the-theater/76143736

The Movies board is extremely reactionary, for the record. I would not take that place as a decent barometer for most things.

The movie's reception is positive overall, especially among casual moviegoers. In general I think that the more someone associates them with the Star Wars 'fandom' the more they're likely to dislike the movie though.

I mean that's what it all boils down to right? Casual movie goers/fans are more likely to enjoy the movie because, for all its talk of "letting go of the past" it doesn't actually get into the past, mythology, world building. Instead, it relies upon the strength of its new characters: namely Holdo, Rose, Rey, and Kylo Ren. For fans of the original films and the franchise's outer world, it's disappointing because it doesn't really provide a satisfactory level of enmeshment within that world.

Also, casual movie-goers are dumb.

I mean they were the ones who made the Transformers series a hit.
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ClyTheCool posted...

Just saw it finally.

Liked it. Didn't love it. I have a lot of little problems with stuff in the film and a big problem with something the franchise has done as a whole. But it was okay. It felt more like Rogue One than The Force Awakens most of the time.

Luke was the bomb

Why is everyone crying about how the franchise sucks now.

What were your thoughts on Holdo's plan

This is the critical point to determine whether your taste is good
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwhLCFR5NJc

I found this to be a good video, points out all the easter eggs and hidden details of the movie.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I wanna know how Poe had never seen Holdo despite her being the Resistance's second-in-command and despite the Resistance seemingly numbering no more than a few hundred people. What kinda shoddy operation is that.

He is so obsessed with shooting stuff he has only actually met Leia and Finn. That's why he was so easily able to sacrifice those dozens of nameless people during the bombing run.
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this topic really subverts my expectations

And also worth pointing out that his only association with the name "Holdo" was her accomplishments in a battle. Without that she may as well not even exist to him
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I am now caught up with the rest of the world.

Awesome movie. Better than The Force Awakens because it at least played with the formula a little, instead of "Blow up Death Star (in this case it was a planet turned into one). Kill off major character." We did get the destruction of the bad guys' base, but it wasn't in the same fashion as before - a suicide mission - and it was almost repeated by Finn doing the same (and I thought he would, too).

I need to rewatch them all, but if I recall correctly... I'd rank 'em:
5 > 8 > 6 > 4 > 7 = R1 >>>>>> 3 >>>>> 2 > 1

But 8 being that high might be that I just saw it. That said, I wasn't THIS high on TFA...
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Something unrelated but what in the blue hell is this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmOPXhFensg
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Calmax Film2 days ago
OK guys let's make a petition to make this canon!
This is AWESOMENESS and NECESSARY
Reply 553
View all 19 replies

this is why I don't do the star wars fandom
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also I want to adopt a Porg
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BlueCrystalTear posted...

also I want to adopt a Porg

It's weird how I was mostly indifferent towards in the film but then everyone I talked to loved them and I'm like "yeah, I guess I kinda liked them."

They never felt obnoxious or overbearing in their scenes, they're just largely there.
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Porgs are whatever, I want a pet vulptex (crystal critter)
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AquaArcane posted...

Porgs are whatever, I want a pet vulptex (crystal critter)

Everything you've been saying in these topics is me
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AquaArcane posted...

Porgs are whatever, I want a pet vulptex (crystal critter)

Apparently Crait was in the Alola region.
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SaveEstelle posted...

Everything you've been saying in these topics is me

^5 bro, glad to know there's another me

Grand Kirby posted...

Apparently Crait was in the Alola region.

I had the hardest time saying vulptex at first
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wait

they're really fucking called vulptex?

ya

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vulptex
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Divergent question, but has anyone here rewatched Rogue One? I remember general fan consensus being that it was almost "surprisingly" good, with many preferring it to TFA, and some even calling it their favorite Star Wars movie. However, I never see people actually discussing it, unless it's that random "Rogue One was good, and in fact better than [other Star Wars movie]" post.

I liked it in theaters but have had almost no desire to sit down and rewatch the whole thing since then.
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I've rewatched Rogue One several times. I still love it. I even like the first act although I acknowledge that it's a bit weird at times (mind tentacle monster wtf), but everything with Jedha city and onward is nonstop entertainment.

New movies definitely do space battles correctly, makes me so happy
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Aqua and I continue to be on almost the exact same wavelength, lol. I like the movie a lot from Jedha onward. Especially once Act 2 kicks up. I see it said often on the net that the film is "saved" by Act 3, but nah, it doesn't need saving. It's good almost the whole way through.

I still prefer TFA, though.
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Rogue One is bad in Act 1

And is bad in Act 2 and 3 as well

Reg posted...

ClyTheCool posted...

Just saw it finally.

Liked it. Didn't love it. I have a lot of little problems with stuff in the film and a big problem with something the franchise has done as a whole. But it was okay. It felt more like Rogue One than The Force Awakens most of the time.

Luke was the bomb

Why is everyone crying about how the franchise sucks now.

What were your thoughts on Holdo's plan

This is the critical point to determine whether your taste is good

Seemed like a good rebel trick for evading star destroyers. In fact, her plan is basically exactly what I imagine when I picture what kind of tactics the old rebels used to use to survive the empire. Keep your eye on the birdy and all that. Keep the star destroyer focused on the big cruiser while slipping out some smaller ships out right under their noses. In fact, I kinda liked the strategy of keeping out of range of the star destroyers. It does make sense, and if it wasn't for stuff like that, the rebels would never had a chance against the insanely superior empire.

The only reason it's kind of dumb is the entire premise of this being the last remaining group of resistance. This is the "big problem with the franchise" I alluded to earlier. I really dislike this setup they've made that the First order is huge and overwhelming and there's only a small force of rebels to oppose them. They started this in TFA and really pushed it forward here. It's been thirty years or whatever. The Republic should be stronger than this. They should not be the underdog like this. They are in an even worse position than the rebels were in the original trilogy. It just doesn't make sense. The only reason they set it up that way was to engineer a sense that our heroes are the underdogs and give them this sense of hope they can overcome an overpowering enemy, just like last time. It's stupid as hell. And it set up the entire premise of this movie, which is the last remaining rebels are fleeing a powerful force of First Order ships. I really dislike the status of the rebels in the new trilogy in general, so I really dislike the premise they based this entire movie around. Holdo's solution is the solution to this dumb premise, so it must be dumb too, right? WRONG. It's fine.
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Yeah Holdo's plan was fine in and of itself

It's just stupid she never told Poe instead of letting a mutiny start. And then its doubly stupid that after the mutiny did happen, they just laugh it off by going 'oh that Poe, always starting mutinies, what a scamp'.

I'll say it again, any issue I had with Holdo was completely washed away once I saw that hyperspace kamikaze
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I really enjoyed TFA, but I never understood when people said they liked Poe. He was generic rebel fighter pilot heroman. I've seen a million characters exactly like him in the games and novels and stuff. He was just soo generic. He had literally nothing to his character in that movie except being a rebel. But it was fine I guess because he was just a background character who set up the plot for actually good characters like Finn and Rey.

But they pushed Poe to the forefront in this movie and... he's exactly what I thought he was. Generic rebel fighter pilot heroman. He jumps in his X Wing and he blows stuff up. Leia points this out and it's meant to set him up for character growth later, but instead he just starts a mutiny and sends some people on a foolish mission. That mission actually caused all the ships to get revealed too. i'm kinda annoyed they glossed over the fact that Finn and Rose got the rebels killed like that.

But Poe's character arc is kinda meaningless. Maybe it'll pay off in the next movie if they suddenly figure out how to write him well, but it didn't happen in this movie. I didn't care for the "we'll be the spark that ignites rebellion across the galaxy" stuff he was spouting at the end because the entire rebellion thing annoys me, and he annoys me. Who knows what'll happen next time though.

All of those rebel tactics for surviving the chase were what made this feel like Rogue One. Rogue One is an interesting story that tells it's own one off story within the Star Wars universe. This random set of characters has a problem that they gotta deal with and they deal with it. This whole rebel cruiser story felt a lot like that. It didn't really feel like "main star wars storyline" material. It was a neat setting but I didn't really understand why they put us here.

All the Luke stuff and the Rey/Kylo Ren stuff felt like main star wars material though and it was great. I'm pretty happy with all of that stuff. The only thing I'd like to have seen a bit more of there was a little more solo Rey stuff exploring herself on the island that might have led us to believe she might turn to the dark side a little more. I didn't *really* believe she would join Kylo Ren, even though his pitch was actually pretty good.
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Okay, I just read through the last 500 post topic quickly before it purged. Here's a bunch of thoughts on random things that popped out at me:

The Knights of Ren - These guys might still exist. TFA indicated that Kylo Ren destroyed the academy with the Knights of Ren and there's a vision of them standing looking all cool. TLJ Luke mentions that Kylo Ren massacred most of the students and left with a few of them. This is consistent. Those guys could still be out there and show up. Or they might just get forgotten. They might have been part of those lightsabre ninja guards of Snokes that got killed, but that seems unlikely to me.

Phasma - lame pointless character made to sell toys that did nothing in both movies. She could have been an interesting foil for Finn. Instead she's a pointless boring foil for Finn that shows up for a pointless and boring fight. She's a big disappointment

Snoke - I think he was fine. He was cool in this movie. Fit the bill for evil sith lord / galactic emperor 2.0 to a T. I'm completely okay with him dying like he did though. I thought they were building him up now for us to overcome in Ep 9, but instead he's just a cool sith lord they brought out of the wood work to facilitate Kylo Ren's rise to power. I've seen a lot of people complain about where he came from, but it honestly doesn't matter. It's not a plothole that he was around during the Empire's time. Obviously Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda survived off the grid. There's absolutely no reason that other Jedi or powerful dark side users couldn't have survived as well. Just because the movies told you there were no other force users left alive doesn't mean it's true. Palpatine could have known about Snoke, or he might not have. It really doesn't matter either way.

Wigs being confused on Kylo Ren's betrayal - For some reason Wigs kept talking out to himself about why Kylo Ren flip flopped on his allegiences. That's just a fundamental misunderstanding of what happened. Kylo Ren never flip flopped at all. He was always 100% loyal to Kylo Ren. He followed Snoke until it was no longer convenient to keep Snoke around (when Snoke wanted to Rey dead) so he killed Snoke. It's classic sith apprentice supplanting the master backstabbing and it was done wonderfully. The movie presents it to us as if he's face turning and joining Rey because of the relationship they've built (which was developed pretty decently well), and Rey genuinely believing Kylo Ren could be turned to the light side. However, Kylo Ren's plan the entire time was to kill Snoke, assume control of The First Order, and convince Rey to join him as his partner. He really believed it would all work, too. He never once changed his mind here or intended to "join the light side" . As conflicted and immature as he is, he's dark side for life.

Mary Poppins Leia - for some reason literally everyone is hating on this scene. No idea why. It's a cool scene. We know in the OT that Leia is force sensitive. The force protecting you from the void of space temporarily is absolutely within the realm of possibility of the force. It's not like it protected her from death... She still ended up in intensive care. It was just a cool inspiring moment for the rebels. She's a hero of the resistance. She's already a larger than life figure to them for what happened in the OT, but they literally watched her get blown into space and fly back in. It's great.
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Finn and Rose's Excellent Adventure - I wanted to like this, but... it just didn't deliver. I thought the idea of going on a whirlwind adventure to some planet when the star destroyers were RIGHT THERE seemed weird, but w/e I was on board. The casino planet was cool and showing the people who profit from the war between the First Order and the Rebels is cool. But they didn't really do anything cool or interesting there. Avoiding guards was boring and I didn't like the stampede scenes. They didn't feel like they were taking their extremely time sensitive mission that seriously either. They even left without finding a codebreaker. They just lucked out and BB8 brought that dude to bail them out. Speaking of the codebreaker - he was just one interesting speech pattern away from being a cool character. I couldn't understand him half the time though so he was kind of a miss.

comedy - I've seen people say this is a Marvel quipfest or something but I don't get it at all. A couple characters like Finn make jokes but for the most part this movie was played pretty damn straight.

Lopen - he's just a big dumb stupid head
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Star Wars has always had some comedy and some of the comedy worked in this one and some didn't.

What comes to mind for one that didn't was Luke saying "no one is from nowhere" to "yeah, jakku is basically nowhere". It felt directly lifted from a marvel quip and felt out of place to me.
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