Board 8 > We need to come up with a name for the "Souls-like" genre.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Team Rocket Elite posted...

I should probably figure out what Rogue is like some day instead of just assuming it like a Roguelike.

It's not a Roguelike

Team Rocket Elite posted...

I should probably figure out what Rogue is like some day instead of just assuming it like a Roguelike.

I imagine they must be pretty hard, since they felt the need to make a Roguelite genre.

Lightning Strikes posted...

Nintendo, Jeff Gerstmann, and SHINE, thats good enough for me!

But lets be real, Metroidvania was always a terrible name and Im glad its gone forever.

Nintendo didn't, they just used the Japanese term that has been in use forever in an article about Dread and someone translated it. I don't think they ever used "search action" in English

NFUN posted...

It's not a Roguelike

is it a Rogueis?

NFUN posted...

It's not a Roguelike

it is a roguelike

that being said, most roguelikes people play are actually not roguelikes but roguelites

i have nostalgia for rogue because it was the first video game i ever played- on an old computer my dad's work didn't need anymore

i remember being legitimately afraid of the "M" and "I" monsters

banananor posted...

it is a roguelike

nope

banananor posted...

that being said, all roguelikes people play are actually not roguelikes but roguelites

ftfy

https://hard-drive.net/roguelike-genre-purist-hopes-someone-will-develop-a-roguelike-someday/
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/666224645338300422/799397858776186930/roguelike_chart.png

one of these is completely unironic

the masochist genre

Grand Kirby posted...

Action
Adventure
Simulation
Strategy

All of those refer to a specific style of game

Hard disagree, especially since games or often described by combining 2 or more of those at a time.

NFUN posted...

nope

ftfy

https://hard-drive.net/roguelike-genre-purist-hopes-someone-will-develop-a-roguelike-someday/
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/666224645338300422/799397858776186930/roguelike_chart.png

one of these is completely unironic

They categorized Crypt of the Necrodancer wrong on that chart (it's a roguelike) but otherwise it's pretty much correct

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Search Action is an even more terrible name

And I'm fine with Souls-like, Demon and Dark Souls deserve all the credit for the countless indie hacks trying to be like lol Dark Souls.

Kirby-unlike

NFUN posted...

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/666224645338300422/799397858776186930/roguelike_chart.png

god this chart is such an embarrassing take. like this is so much effort just to say "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about"

imagine being a language prescriptivist

Paratroopa1 posted...

god this chart is such an embarrassing take. like this is so much effort just to say "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about"

thats gotta be the ironic one

I just have my head in my hands over the idea that Spelunky is "only a platformer, shut up about your meme genres, there is absolutely nothing worth interrogating about whether or not this game might have anything in common with roguelikes" like any game that behaves like a platformer is just a platformer no matter what it is while roguelikes have this complicated checklist of things - it's so dumb

also having to lie about Crypt of the Necrodancer's attributes because it would have landed under "Roguelike" in your tree otherwise and that wasn't convenient to you, lol (there are aspects of the Berlin Interpretation that would make Necrodancer not a roguelike (no resource management, time pressure for most characters), but they weren't included in any of the definitions in this chart, they just fucked up and said it wasn't tile-based/turn-based which it is)

I'm just here to agree that "Search action" is dumb and to also point out that Nintendo has never actually used that term, which I believe somebody already did.

oh, i hadn't looked at the flowchart.

ah yes, crypt of the necrodancer, a game beloved by all for being a close-quarters brawler with hack and slash gameplay that doesn't take place on a grid

Glad I'm not the only one who did a triple-take at Crypt of the Necrodancer, the well-known Hack and Slash game

Find inaction

Soulsborne Ring Twice-likes, of course.

Search Action hasn't replaced Metroidvania, it's just the Japanese term for Metroidvania. Nintendo didn't coin it.

I've made my peace with the Metroidvania name. It's an appropriate genre name for "a game belonging to the lineage of games that include the Metroid series and the Castlevania series post-SOTN with their implied genre conventions".

I feel like Search Action is an okay term. It just sounds off at first glance because we're not used to it, but to be honest most terms are like that. If it got widely-spread people would stop caring pretty quickly.

This topic mostly confused me because Search Action is definitely not widely-spread.

I think part of the problem is that people just want a single catch-all term, but sometimes it's easier to describe it by calling it something like what popularized the genre because people who are actually interested in that sort of game instantly recognize what you mean, even if they don't share all the same characteristics (although you still have people who try to argue a game doesn't fit into the genre like that chart, haha).

Good to know I'm a leading authority on genre names

I like search action the more I think about it

I am tired of the term "Metroidvania" used for every 2D platformer with a hub world. Search-Action as a genre with "Metroidvania" as a sub-genre can work
When I think of "Metroidvania" I think of a game with small corridors, bosses that give you powerups, teleport rooms, save rooms, etc
Mega Man ZX is considered a Metroidvania just because it has a hub world but some levels are literal "go right to win" on a flat surface

I was looking for my keys earlier.

Now that was some Search Action.

If we're calling Metroidvanias 'Search Action' games, does that make these 'Search Adventure' games then?
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/1/5/AAEwvCAAC5SD.jpg

Screw roguelites and roguelikes, I am on team roguelimes,

Rogue-limes are procedurally generated games with permanent character death and explicit sexual themes, but like, not as explicit as rogue-lemons

Lightning Strikes posted...

search action/exploration action

I see, so action/adventure.

lordjers posted...

I see, so action/adventure.

lets just call them video games

I will be honest. When I first heard metroidvania it didn't make any sense to me. Cause I had not played either of those games. But had played similar type games. So I have never liked the term purely due to it not actually telling you anything that the game is going to do.

Nanis23 posted...

I am tired of the term "Metroidvania" used for every 2D platformer with a hub world. Search-Action as a genre with "Metroidvania" as a sub-genre can work
When I think of "Metroidvania" I think of a game with small corridors, bosses that give you powerups, teleport rooms, save rooms, etc
Mega Man ZX is considered a Metroidvania just because it has a hub world but some levels are literal "go right to win" on a flat surface

okay now I'm confused

1) how the fuck would metroidvania be a search action subgenre, what is the distinguishing factor here
2) MMZX has small corridors, bosses that give powerups, teleport rooms, and save rooms lmao

I mean I agree that MMZX's map design is not up to the standards of the genre, but it has literally every other arbitrary factor you listed.

Also implies that you can disqualify a game from the genre if its map is bad enough, which is kind of funny. MMZX is a weird example because I literally do not know if they were even trying. But did any madman argue that like, Metroid Dread was not a Metroidvania because it's too linear or something?

As someone who's never played Rogue, I've never had a problem with the term roguelike

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

But did any madman argue that like, Metroid Dread was not a Metroidvania because it's too linear or something?

I'm pretty sure Super Metroid is the only Metroid game that everyone can agree is a Metroidvania, yeah. The others all have arguments (of various quality) against them lmao

Actually yeah I definitely remember arguments about this with Fusion and Prime 3. All of Prime really because FPS, but specifically Prime 3 due to its structure.

A lot of people say Fusion isn't a metroidvania.

I think it's pretty dumb to gatekeep the term based on a vague amount of non-linearity that no one can agree how much of it a game needs before it's "officially" a metroidvania.

A better example is Iconoclasts, which has a metroid-style grid map, upgrades, and 2d platformer gameplay + combat, but is almost entirely linear with a set order you traverse all areas in. Moreso than Fusion which breaks down at the halfway point and has you backtracking through the areas that were previously linear.

Fusion definitely feels a lot more Metroidvania-y than Iconoclasts.

Is the Zelda formula a metroidvania?

Even if Fusion sometimes blocks your path with story progression, you still spend most of your time exploring unknown territory to find the next big upgrade. Like Adam may tell you "Go to Sector 5 and kill the boss who has the Super Missile ability" and lock all the other elevators but then you have to find it in Sector 5, most of which is unmapped, and then story happens and you have to find a different route than the one going through straightforward hallways.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Is the Zelda formula a metroidvania?

Basically except it's not a sidescroller.

Which is funny, since people are starting to call games like Unsighted Metroidvanias.

Zelda has always been Metroidvania adjacent but it typically doesn't have the platforming elements, the focus on movement upgrades, or the seamless interconnected world.

But if something like Bloodborne qualifies then imo Zelda absolutely does

Metroidvania was never meant to be a genre. It's just SOTN, which is a Metroid-like Castlevania. Ever since then it's been used as a much more confusing synonym of Metroid-like, where you have to know it's not actually referring to Castlevania games, most of which aren't Metroid-like. But Metroid-like itself is fine and useful.

All the game-like genres are fine tbh. Rogue-like got stretched to mean any game where you die and restart, but that's ok since that's a core part of Rogue. Games on a grid like Necrodancer are much more Rogue-like, but that doesn't mean you can't describe Hades with it.

Souls-like is similar. It's stretched to apply to anything that has a bonfire, or a dodge roll, or item descriptions with lore, but you can't deny those are all Souls-like things.

The problem is people still think games can only have 1 genre. Let's just call those people dumb and move on.

People consider any 2D sidescroller with even the vaguest of "open world" elements to be a Metroidvania. Basically, it comes down to "do you sometimes go back to an old area to get something"? If yes, people consider it a Metroidvania.

For Souls-likes, the question is "is it kinda hard and/or have a corpse run"? If yes, people consider it a Souls-like.

So would Zelda II be a Metroidvania?

'Map that fills up' is one of the biggest thing that screams Metroidvania to me. Especially if it's in that traditional block format.