Poll of the Day > Why the hell can't MKX do the fighting game thing correctly?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Why is it RT to block instead of pressing back? It's straight up moronic. The sweeping kick heavy kick button doesn't knock them down, the hadoken move can't be done with X or Y, has to be a specific one, etc...

Jesus Christ, I know Mortal Kombat games always lacked the depth of Street Fighter, KoF, etc... but they should at least get the basics right FFS.
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Separating block from movement is a bad thing?
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Nichtcrawler X posted...

Separating block from movement is a bad thing?

Of course! There's a reason why pretty much every respectable fighting game does it that way.
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lihlih posted...

Nichtcrawler X posted...

Separating block from movement is a bad thing?

Of course! There's a reason why pretty much every respectable fighting game does it that way.

SoulCalibur doesn't
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Smash doesn't

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DeltaBladeX posted...

lihlih posted...

Nichtcrawler X posted...

Separating block from movement is a bad thing?

Of course! There's a reason why pretty much every respectable fighting game does it that way.

SoulCalibur doesn't

As much as I love Soul Calibur, it's a pretty casual fighting game.
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Metalsonic66 posted...

Smash doesn't

Smash isn't even a fighting game, it's a party game.
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lihlih posted...

Smash isn't even a fighting game, it's a party game.

Weird considering all the fighting tournaments that feature it

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lihlih posted...

it's a pretty casual fighting game.

https://i.imgur.com/zAPrOWk.png
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Metalsonic66 posted...

lihlih posted...

Smash isn't even a fighting game, it's a party game.

Weird considering all the fighting tournaments that feature it

Party tournaments.

Also you have darts tournaments, doesn't make it a technical game.
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Riiiiiight

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i hate MK's mechanics honestly

pressing buttons as fast as you can is annoying

although I own mk11 that was the reason i didn't keep X around
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DeltaBladeX posted...

lihlih posted...

it's a pretty casual fighting game.

https://i.imgur.com/zAPrOWk.png

Jesus Christ, I didn't realize how much karma I had.

There's a reason why Soul Calibur games never get added to Evo or anything like that.
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soul caliber games are great fighting games

a documentary i watched on fighting games specifically had soul caliber

that's almost as dumb as saying Tekken isn't a fighting game

just because gameplay stops for 10 seconds to play a pre-rendered movie during a special that doesn't mean it's a real good fighting game
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RoboXgp89 posted...

soul caliber games are great fighting games

a documentary i watched on fighting games specifically had soul caliber

that's almost as dumb as saying Tekken isn't a fighting game

just because gameplay stops for 10 seconds to play a pre-rendered movie during a special that doesn't mean it's a real good fighting game

Bruh, I never said Soul Calibur isn't a fighting game, or even a bad one. It's just a casual fighting game, which is completely ok.
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lihlih posted...

DeltaBladeX posted...

lihlih posted...

Nichtcrawler X posted...

Separating block from movement is a bad thing?

Of course! There's a reason why pretty much every respectable fighting game does it that way.

SoulCalibur doesn't

As much as I love Soul Calibur, it's a pretty casual fighting game.

Those are fighting words!

lihlih posted...

Bruh, I never said Soul Calibur isn't a fighting game, or even a bad one. It's just a casual fighting game, which is completely ok.

Except it's not ok to call SC casual. Super not ok.
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Fucking ring-out again!

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Metalsonic66 posted...

lihlih posted...

Smash isn't even a fighting game, it's a party game.

Weird considering all the fighting tournaments that feature it

Party tournaments.

Also you have darts tournaments, doesn't make it a technical game.

Tell that to the guy on your doubles team that can hammer bulls all day and night while the other guys are still trying to hit 17s...
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Fighting game fans are weird. "This doesn't have exactly the same controls as my favourite fighting game this is unacceptable!"
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Mortal Kombat is a casual fighting game.

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adjl posted...

Fighting game fans are weird. "This doesn't have exactly the same controls as my favourite fighting game this is unacceptable!"

You do know that pretty much everything I listed is the norm is most fighting games, right? A more apt comparison would be like me complaining that a FPS doesn't have dual analog controls.
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To be fair, once you've reached the point of frame counting... you're a fucking nerd, and I don't mean that in the nice way. I've never had a discussion with a frame counter that wasn't a terrible waste of my time.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

To be fair, once you've reached the point of frame counting... you're a fucking nerd, and I don't mean that in the nice way. I've never had a discussion with a frame counter that wasn't a terrible waste of my time.

Who said anything about frame counting?
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lihlih posted...

WhiskeyDisk posted...

To be fair, once you've reached the point of frame counting... you're a fucking nerd, and I don't mean that in the nice way. I've never had a discussion with a frame counter that wasn't a terrible waste of my time.

Who said anything about frame counting?

Nobody yet. But that being said, this is a random discussion about fighting game mechanics. Inevitably, a frame counting nerd is going to pop up out of the woodwork and this topic is going to take a hard turn towards dipshittery.

I have spoken.
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Virtually Fighter is best fighter obvs

Cuz of dem frames

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Any fighting game where you can't play as the car from Daytona is objectively terrible.
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lihlih posted...

adjl posted...

Fighting game fans are weird. "This doesn't have exactly the same controls as my favourite fighting game this is unacceptable!"

You do know that pretty much everything I listed is the norm is most fighting games, right? A more apt comparison would be like me complaining that a FPS doesn't have dual analog controls.

That's the entire control scheme, though, and is as popular as it is because it objectively works the best (at least compared to other controller options, since obviously M+KB is leagues better). This is a handful of specific button mapping choices, all of which are pretty much completely arbitrary once you make sure that it's feasible to hit button pairs simultaneously when necessary.
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Modern controllers have many buttons, decoupling certain inputs, or at the very least the choice, is always good.

Walking backwards and blocking are obviously different thing. Same way Smash has had for a long time a separate jump button and the ability to remove jump from the up button.

Not to mention, every game that I can think of, that I have played or at the least like to play, has block/guard firmly separate from movement.
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Nichtcrawler X posted...

Modern controllers have many buttons, decoupling certain inputs, or at the very least the choice, is always good.

Really, this is the biggest reason inputs get decoupled. Traditionally, block didn't have a separate button because building a dedicated block button into an arcade cabinet cost money. To that end, assigning as many different functions to a given input as possible was a way to cut costs and maximize profit. These days, arcade versions of fighting games are very much the minority when it comes to sales, so control schemes can be based on controllers with more buttons.
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If you think a button to block is a good thing in anything other than 3D fighters, you clearly know nothing about fighting games.

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lihlih posted...

If you think a button to block is a good thing in anything other than 3D fighters, you clearly know nothing about fighting games.

I don't know much about fighting games but you still haven't provided a reason why a separate block button is a bad idea.

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trodi_911 posted...

I don't know much about fighting games but you still haven't provided a reason why a separate block button is a bad idea.

When you're backing up, you're trying to put distance between you and the opponent. It's natural to want to block your opponent's attacks while trying to put distance. Also, back blocking enables charge characters, which puts variety in the game.
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lihlih posted...

When you're backing up, you're trying to put distance between you and the opponent. It's natural to want to block your opponent's attacks while trying to put distance. Also, back blocking enables charge characters, which puts variety in the game.

Wouldn't that make it more casual though? Having the game automatically block for you while retreating takes less skill, not more.

So if making it too casual is one of your criteria, I would think you'd be in favour of a separate button to block, as timing the block would take more skill.

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Dynalo posted...

Wouldn't that make it more casual though? Having the game automatically block for you while retreating takes less skill, not more.

So if making it too casual is one of your criteria, I would think you'd be in favour of a separate button to block, as timing the block would take more skill.

Pressing back to block isn't blocking for you automatically, lol. Just stay away from the fighting game talk if you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Honest question, does holding back cause it to block incoming attacks?

If so, how does having a separate button that you have to press while retreating not require more skill?

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lihlih posted...

When you're backing up, you're trying to put distance between you and the opponent. It's natural to want to block your opponent's attacks while trying to put distance.

It's also natural to have a button press associated with each action you want to take. I really don't think you have an actual argument here beyond "It's how Street Fighter did it and anyone that didn't copy them is doing it wrong."

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Mortal Kombat is easily the worst of the fighting games.

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Dynalo posted...

Honest question, does holding back cause it to block incoming attacks?

If so, how does having a separate button that you have to press while retreating not require more skill?

Neither way is more skillful. Either way, you're just holding a button to block. The fact of the matter is, it's more natural to have a button associated with retreating as the block. Also, like I said, it also helps with charge characters.
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adjl posted...

It's also natural to have a button press associated with each action you want to take.

Not really, as mentioned Smash is about the only game with a dedicated jump button. Special Attacks still require inputs and nobody is gonna advocate for one button specials.

Dynalo posted...

If so, how does having a separate button that you have to press while retreating not require more skill?

No it's pretty much the same input-wise, because people don't only block on reaction. Players are conditioned to be tapping the block button constantly the same way back input conditions people to hit back constantly. A button means can approach safer without giving up ground because it's easier to alternate forward + button than it is to alternate forward + back. Here's a small clip showing an approach in MK11 EVO Finals, as you see they're tapping block regularly as they walk; if they had to hit back to block, their approach would have been a bit slower and riskier.

https://i.imgur.com/6SRoQVm.gif

On the skill subject though, a block button only allows two block options: high and low. You can't have crossups because your character's block will turn with the opponent. This is why MK can get away with instant teleport attacks that hit from behind, because all you have to do is hold the block button. With a back block, crossups are possible so you have four block options: forward high, forward low, reverse high, reverse low. This creates much more offensive opportunities for most characters and it takes a great deal of practice and matchup knowledge to be able to block them effectively, increasing skill on both sides of the spectrum. Marvel vs Capcom wouldn't be nearly as exciting with a block button that would follow all the screen crossing the characters are capable of, that game lives on crossups.

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Veedrock- posted...

Not really, as mentioned Smash is about the only game with a dedicated jump button. Special Attacks still require inputs and nobody is gonna advocate for one button specials.

2 actions from pressing 1 button and 1 action from pressing 2 buttons are not the same thing.

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Veedrock- posted...

Not really, as mentioned Smash is about the only game with a dedicated jump button.

And having a dedicated jump button is pretty natural, at least when an upward directional input does more than just jump. Other games that are described by that could benefit from a dedicated jump button.

Veedrock- posted...

Special Attacks still require inputs and nobody is gonna advocate for one button specials.

And that's also pretty natural, or at least consistent with the core fighting game philosophy of "more complex input=stronger attack." You've gotta work to do the good stuff. Of course, Smash also turns that on its head, because that's kind of what Smash does.

Veedrock- posted...

Players are conditioned to be tapping the block button constantly the same way back input conditions people to hit back constantly. A button means can approach safer without giving up ground because it's easier to alternate forward + button than it is to alternate forward + back.

I feel like it'd be better to limit that mechanically than by deliberately making the controls more awkward and unintuitive.

Veedrock- posted...

On the skill subject though, a block button only allows two block options: high and low. You can't have crossups because your character's block will turn with the opponent.

Only if you design it that way. There's no reason you can't add directionality to a block button if you want that depth.

WhiskeyDisk posted...

To be fair, once you've reached the point of frame counting... you're a fucking nerd, and I don't mean that in the nice way. I've never had a discussion with a frame counter that wasn't a terrible waste of my time.

Lowkey mocking Tekken fans.

demonfang178 posted...

Lowkey mocking Tekken fans.

It's not just Tekken. KoF, DoA, all of them.

There were like 2 cats from back in the spinoff era that were insufferable with that shit and they'd completely have meltdowns everytime I mocked them whenever they went on at great length about their frame-perfect ukemi and invincibility frames and input buffering.

They were the sort of people that made fighting games about as fun as a forensics report.

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