Poll of the Day > ATTN: parents

(+) Yeah! (+)

Have you guys noticed that your kids like toys that conform to their gender? I always thought really little kids just play with w/e and don't really have a preference on gender based toys, but my kids are the total opposite.

My daughter(4.5 years old) prefers barbies ponies, pink stuff, etc... but will play with balls(although I see balls and stuff as gender neutral toys, I know some people see them as male toys) on some occasion.

My son(just turned 2 like 2 weeks ago) won't touch barbies or anything girly. The only "girly" toy he likes playing with is a purple talking dog.(he has a green one that is literally the same thing, but he prefers the purple one for some reason)

I really thought 2 year olds would be too young to have a preference on stuff like this, but he was like this pretty much from the beginning. He'd throw out "girly" toys from his crib and only played with gender neutral or male centric toys.

I'm just wondering if this is the norm or if my kids are the exception.

Nah, it just means your 2 year old is a bigot /s

But really, your baby throwing away the girly toy IS his attempt at playing with it. They don't know what it is, a barbie is just, like, a pink stick... is this a fetchy-wetchy for the doggy-woggy? IDK

Toys that have some sort of action to them is very appealing to little boyos... anything with moving parts or that makes sounds on contact or has a variety of textures.

I'd say one of the single best toys for little kids is one of these:
https://i.imgur.com/o6lM549.png

We've given all sorts of toys to my 5 year old over the years

He has a Spider-Man action figure he's never touched, a My Little Pony he's never played with, several stuffed animals he's held onto for about a day each with a pink flamingo being the only he's returned to several times

He had a Baby Shark obsession (not really leaning towards boys or girls?), he was into Peppa Pig last year but wouldn't touch the toy he got for his birthday

Now he's all about vehicles - cars (including a big pink convertible that's something like a Barbie car), construction and emergency vehicles and helicopters. He easily has over 100 of them ranging from Hot Wheels/MatchBox to a battery operated ride on police car

I guess cars are more boy orientated, whenever we see another kid at the playground with a vehicle it's usually a boy

TL;DR - If my son likes the toy (99% of the time being a vehicle) he'll play with it and hold onto it until we head to the register if we're at a store

JixHedgehog posted...

We've given all sorts of toys to my 5 year old over the years

He has a Spider-Man action figure he's never touched, a My Little Pony he's never played with, several stuffed animals he's held onto for about a day each with a pink flamingo being the only he's returned to several times

He had a Baby Shark obsession (not really leaning towards boys or girls?), he was into Peppa Pig last year but wouldn't touch the toy he got for his birthday

Now he's all about vehicles - cars (including a big pink convertible that's something like a Barbie car), construction and emergency vehicles and helicopters. He easily has over 100 of them ranging from Hot Wheels/MatchBox to a battery operated ride on police car

I guess cars are more boy orientated, whenever we see another kid at the playground with a vehicle it's usually a boy

TL;DR - If my son likes the toy (99% of the time being a vehicle) he'll play with it and hold onto it until we head to the register if we're at a store

I had one of those.

I stole my sisters Ariel Barbie so often that my aunt gave me one for my birthday back in the day...

I'm not a parent, but I'm regularly around the younger kids of my friends. And I had a niece and nephew (who are older now).

In my experience, most kids today don't seem to like/care about toys all that much at all. They mostly just throw them around in piles every now and then, and then go back to watching YouTube videos on their tablet/phone.

When they do seem to play with stuff, it generally seems to be non-gender specific. Like piling blocks on other blocks or throwing balls or the like. It doesn't really seem like when I was a kid and everyone played with specific stuff like Transformers and GI Joe or Ninja Turtles or Voltron.

I do know my friend's daughter went through a My Little Pony phase, but that was triggered by her mom giving her her own old toys (and maybe by watching the show), so I don't know how much you can attribute that to the child's own preferences. His older boy liked Paw Patrol when he was younger, but again, that might be more related to the fact that he saw a show he liked (plus cute animals).

But you can't discount the fact that both society and other kids are regularly establishing social norms for what is and isn't acceptable for any given kid to play with, so if your kids are watching TV or playing with friends, at least some of that is going to rub off. And your own biases will play a role as well (if you buy mostly dolls for a daughter, she'll understand on some level that she's supposed to like dolls).

It might also depend on what they have access to. If I'm going to be honest, most of my play as a young kid involved me burying my action figures in my sandbox, because that's where I played most when I was outside. A kid who mostly stays inside and has multiple brothers and sisters to potentially play with is likely going to develop entirely different play styles from an only child who spends most of their time outside.

The left is correct that we shouldn't force gender expectations on anyone. The left goes to far when they pretend that boys and girls aren't statistically drawn to different things.

Yes, boys tend to play with toys that you would associate with boys, and vice versa for girls, even without any societal input. That's not true of every individual, of course, and individuals should be given choices...but it's true statistically. Boys are naturally more aggressive (again, typically). Etc etc.

It's not wrong to notice tendencies: it's instead wrong to force them or not know how to react when they don't conform to expectations.

As for video games, that is changing things for both sexes. That said, there are still video games that boys are more likely to like and vice versa.

wpot posted...

As for video games, that is changing things for both sexes. That said, there are still video games that boys are more likely to like and vice versa.

Video games were generally pretty equally liked by boys and girls before Nintendo went really hard on the idea that games were for boys and pushed that mentality in their own publishing. Which, during the NES/SNES era, helped set the dominant paradigm and kind of pushed girls out of gaming entirely.

Since then girls have generally come back, but in spite of people who love to cite statistics that "just as many girls play games now as boys!", they tend to prefer very different games. The female demo is much stronger in puzzle games and mobile games, less so in major console releases like GTA. So there's definitely a gender divide in terms of video game appeal now. But it becomes a bit of a chicken/egg scenario - are girls less interested in certain games because gaming spent 20 years developing down lines specifically meant to appeal to boys, and is only now trying to branch out again? Or are they more inclined to dislike games because they've been told for years that video games are for boys (and are only gravitating to mobile games and puzzle games because they feel less like "video games")?

Agreed there's some chicken and egg.

In my (son and daughter plus friends) experience my son likes adventure/fighting games (liked BOTW, Hollow Knight, and Dragon Quest 11 recently). My daughter likes Minecraft/Roblox games where you built a fort/house/whatever or pretend with friends. They both cross over a little and know that all of the games are available to them (my daughter played a little Secret of Mana and FF1, actually, but wasn't strongly drawn to them).

That's one person's experience, but I suspect it's statistically true of the youngest generation who doesn't remember the Nintendo thing. My sister (now 35) liked Secret of Mana back in the day and then WAS kind of pushed out of the market. She just recently came back and enjoyed Hollow Knight. She has more stereotypically male tastes in games, but none of her friends gamed. (One would play Pokemon with her when they first started in the 90s, though)

But don't blame me when little Eric jumps off of the terrace
You shoulda been watchin' him, apparently you ain't parents

wpot posted...

My daughter likes Minecraft/Roblox games where you built a fort/house/whatever or pretend with friends.

My friend's kids (both male and female) play Roblox. The middle child (a boy) plays Minecraft, the other two don't really play it.

With my niece and nephew, both used to like to play Minecraft with me, though my (younger) niece kind of played more to collect animals as pets and because she wanted to socialize, whereas my (older) nephew was more into building things and killing stuff. Neither of them ever wanted to live together (they'd build separate houses), though my nephew generally wanted to live with me if I'd let him (or at least wanted to connect our houses via tunnel or rail if I didn't), whereas she mostly wanted to be left alone unless she needed something (food, resources, saddles so she could ride her horse, etc), at which point she'd start begging us to bring it to her. To the point where in a lot of our worlds (I generally made a new one whenever they came over to visit for a while), I'd just spend most of my time setting up a major mine for resources, then build roads between their houses. I also started putting treasure chests on a fence pole in front of their house as a pseudo-mailbox, which I could stuff resources (like food or ores) into.

My nephew, in general, used to prefer co-op games over competitive, though it's hard to say if that was his own preference, if he felt that way because he rarely got to play with me so he wanted to maximize our time when we did play together, or because that's how -I- tend to like to play, so he knew that I was more likely to enjoy games if we played that way, and he wanted me to enjoy playing with him because it meant I was more likely to play with him again later.

At one point my other friend's slightly older daughter was deep into Fortnite, but I think that was mainly because there was a point when literally every kid ever was into Fortnite, so it kind of became almost mandatory if you wanted to fit in at school.



wpot posted...

That's one person's experience, but I suspect it's statistically true of the youngest generation who doesn't remember the Nintendo thing.

My point wasn't so much that Nintendo advertising directly to boys 35 years ago was somehow still affecting people's perception.

My point was more that, because Nintendo did that, the perception became that gaming was for boys. And then, because most gamers afterward were boys, developers developed games to appeal to boys. And then the next generation of games and consoles were developed based on that foundation, so the idea of appealing to boys became so deeply ingrained into game design even without developers consciously doing so. With many modern genres of gaming potentially existing solely because they catered to the specific sort of style of gaming that boys preferred over how girls prefer to play.

So there might be biases and things baked so deeply into gaming that it's extremely hard to rebalance new games in ways where they appeal equally, especially when we're talking about the more complex console/PC gaming experiences that may innately appeal more to boys. Whereas puzzle games are simpler and rely on fewer deep mechanics, so it's easier for them to be unisex in appeal.

Making modern game design more appealing to girls may mean more than simply having more female protagonists in games or using more pretty colors (or adding pretty pink unicorns!). It means potentially uprooting and reevaluating almost 40 years worth of game design logic and assumptions. Which is hard.

So it could just be a case that girls tend to dislike games because culture keeps telling them that they're supposed to dislike games. Or because games themselves have a deeply baked-in bias towards appealing to males over females. Or a combination of both. But you can't really change things unless you first understand what's actually happening.

It's an extremely complicated subject to really understand accurately. Any simple answers are likely wrong.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

It's an extremely complicated subject to really understand accurately. Any simple answers are likely wrong.

Certainly agreed. All I was trying to say at the beginning was that some gender-linked preferences are statistically natural.

Beyond that, could the industry make games more appealing to (traditional) girls? Yes, as you say there is definitely work that could be done there given the history. The most natural way to address that would be to get some young women designing games that would truly appeal to themselves (which is how the industry started with male programmers) buut...yeah, that's not where the industry is right now. And marketing/expectations would still be issues.

I'll agree that the current trend of simply slapping female leads on top of traditionally male-developed genres (be in the movies or games) has probably reached the end of it's usefulness. There was a good reason to make the change and I haven't been sad to see it, but a deeper rethinking is needed and everyone is struggling with that.

Not a parent myself but while I did enjoy action figures I actually enjoyed playing with my sisters toys when growing up too. For some reason I enjoyed dressing up barbie dolls. I doubt most kids have a preference about gender at all as that's mostly a teen/adult construct.

my son didnt show any preference when he was younger. he would play with his sky paw patrol figure just as much as the other ones

wpot posted...

Certainly agreed. All I was trying to say at the beginning was that some gender-linked preferences are statistically natural.

Beyond that, could the industry make games more appealing to (traditional) girls? Yes, as you say there is definitely work that could be done there given the history. The most natural way to address that would be to get some young women designing games that would truly appeal to themselves (which is how the industry started with male programmers) buut...yeah, that's not where the industry is right now. And marketing/expectations would still be issues.

I'll agree that the current trend of simply slapping female leads on top of traditionally male-developed genres (be in the movies or games) has probably reached the end of it's usefulness. There was a good reason to make the change and I haven't been sad to see it, but a deeper rethinking is needed and everyone is struggling with that.

The main issue with that is that a lot of the things which appeal to 'traditional girls' also don't typically make for good game design. For example, a lot of women enjoy horses. While it can make for a cheap 3DS/mobile game it just lacks the strength and depth to develop a fully fleshed out AAA game. While there's certainly ways to make more AAA games appealing to 'traditional girls' by, say, adding in characters who are more 'traditionally feminine' (can we just assume I'm using traditionally from now on in this post?), that's still a tall order and comes with it's own sets of challenges. For example, in Chrono Trigger there's three female characters in the party. One of which is a cavewoman who is 'sexy' but, aside from her sex appeal, is not feminine in any way (relying immensely on physical might and various primative things). The second is a girl who is a gadgeteer inventor which, while being a good character and so-forth, doesn't conform to feminine values. Only one of them actually conforms to the traditional norms and even then she straddles the line at times. This isn't to say it can't be done by any means. For example, Yuna is a distinctly feminine girl and is considered great as is Aerith. This isn't always feasible though. Especially in games with smaller casts. As much as I like Monica Raybrandt I can't deny for a second she's not a feminine girl or, at least, it's subdued in comparison to her other aspects such as being a warrior and so-forth. This is ignoring that such values differ across cultures in at least some aspects. What might be considered feminine in Japan isn't the same in a western culture being the obvious example.

I'm not against it in any way. I'm just not sure how it should be done, especially without compromising game integrity in at least some instances. I am aware not every game needs to conform to this either. Just... I'd like some more concrete thoughts on this before I decide if I support it or not I guess.

I had a doll named Baby Marie and a couple of Barbie dolls, but I usually preferred to play with plush animals, dirt, rocks, and grass. Also loved hanging out with our horses and pigs. Pink things turn me off unless they are piggies. Baby Marie is still my best friend though, even now.

Yes

None of my son's toys are gender specific. They are focused on development which is why he can stand already and will be walking by 9 months.

I can't wait until I can give my children good Christian toys.

Unbridled9 posted...

I'd like some more concrete thoughts on this before I decide if I support it or not I guess.

There's been a lot of focus on characters, and I think that end of the equation is largely on the way to being solved (albeit moreso in movies than in games): you see a fair amount of character variety nowadays. (Even, at times, when it doesn't make sense for the setting of the movie, which annoys me a bit)

Like you say, though, the more interesting question is whether there is a AAA type of game that should exist to appeal to traditional female audiences. Maybe, maybe not. I would personally guess that a MMO Farmville-type game (cooperative gathering/finding/building) might be what's missing, if anything. Add in some Dragon Quest-like sidequests and minigames, maybe. I know a few women something like that might appeal to. Could/should that be AAA? I dunno.

My kid played with toy animals, Pokemon, my little ponies, various cartoon chars, monster high, and transformers when she was little. Her interests developed her way. And I never subscribed to "you must force gender neutral toys on your kids."

That's just as dumb and controlling as telling girls they can't play with hot wheels, and boys they can't play with care bears or whatever. It's like some of these people don't get that.

Lil_Bit83 posted...

My kid played with toy animals, Pokemon, my little ponies, various cartoon chars, monster high, and transformers when she was little. Her interests developed her way. And I never subscribed to "you must force gender neutral toys on your kids."

That's just as dumb and controlling as telling girls they can't play with hot wheels, and boys they can't play with care bears or whatever. It's like some of these people don't get that.

What is she interested in now?

wpot posted...

There's been a lot of focus on characters, and I think that end of the equation is largely on the way to being solved (albeit moreso in movies than in games): you see a fair amount of character variety nowadays. (Even, at times, when it doesn't make sense for the setting of the movie, which annoys me a bit)

Like you say, though, the more interesting question is whether there is a AAA type of game that should exist to appeal to traditional female audiences. Maybe, maybe not. I would personally guess that a MMO Farmville-type game (cooperative gathering/finding/building) might be what's missing, if anything. Add in some Dragon Quest-like sidequests and minigames, maybe. I know a few women something like that might appeal to. Could/should that be AAA? I dunno.

I don't think that's realistically feasible as an MMO. MMO's require a high degree of co-operation between players to complete a task. I'm not saying everything needs to be a raid fight and/or dungeons are an absolute 'must', but I can't see how that would be able to break into the MMO market, let alone the AAA category. Animal Crossing is probably the closest we'll realistically get toward something like that as an AAA game. While something like Farmville can rake in a lot of cash it's just not in the same category.

I suspect it will be more character/aesthetic design as opposed to game design, but even if a game like that for the female audience could be designed there'd be a lot of difficulty convincing the female demographic to play. However, I suspect it won't be an issue as modern generations are increasingly involved in this sort of thing. IIRC quite a few games have about a 33% female player-base. Sure, that's far from 'ideal', but it's a big step forwards. In a generation or two it will probably be near 50/50 regardless of what gets put out.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Video games were generally pretty equally liked by boys and girls before Nintendo went really hard on the idea that games were for boys and pushed that mentality in their own publishing. Which, during the NES/SNES era, helped set the dominant paradigm and kind of pushed girls out of gaming entirely.

Since then girls have generally come back, but in spite of people who love to cite statistics that "just as many girls play games now as boys!", they tend to prefer very different games. The female demo is much stronger in puzzle games and mobile games, less so in major console releases like GTA. So there's definitely a gender divide in terms of video game appeal now. But it becomes a bit of a chicken/egg scenario - are girls less interested in certain games because gaming spent 20 years developing down lines specifically meant to appeal to boys, and is only now trying to branch out again? Or are they more inclined to dislike games because they've been told for years that video games are for boys (and are only gravitating to mobile games and puzzle games because they feel less like "video games")?

mobile games don't make you a gamer

I was obsessed with a tiny plastic native American and a cat toy shaped like a mouse as a child.

I wouldn't read too much into what kids like/dislike.

Krazy_Kirby posted...

mobile games don't make you a gamer

I disagree. As much as it pains me. Back in the day a lot of games on the Atari/NES were of far lower quality in everything (including gameplay) and no one would claim that you weren't a gamer for playing those. However, I do think it's fair to criticize the mindset behind it. Namely people playing it during their commute/break for idle entertainment instead of a devoted effort to enjoy the game.

Girls did come back to gaming...noticed stuff like Tomb Raider, Dead or Alive ect and got pissed off for some reason. Got about half of the companies to change but still probably didn't play those games regardless.

BEERandWEED posted...

I can't wait until I can give my children good Christian toys.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/1/5/AALiV_AADDtP.jpg

The Jesus Christ playset comes with everything you see here!
*batteriesnotincluded*

Unbridled9 posted...

I don't think that's realistically feasible as an MMO. MMO's require a high degree of co-operation between players to complete a task. I'm not saying everything needs to be a raid fight and/or dungeons are an absolute 'must', but I can't see how that would be able to break into the MMO market, let alone the AAA category. Animal Crossing is probably the closest we'll realistically get toward something like that as an AAA game. While something like Farmville can rake in a lot of cash it's just not in the same category.

I don't disagree, but if I'm trying to think of where a "female-oriented AAA game" would come from that area is my best guess. Cooperative gathering/building instead of cooperative destruction. :)

Unbridled9 posted...

Sure, that's far from 'ideal', but it's a big step forwards. In a generation or two it will probably be near 50/50 regardless of what gets put out.

And that's an open question, I think. Right now we put a lot of emphasis on 50/50 splits and view that as "correct". It is in some cases, but - if what you were saying earlier about Farmville not scaling up is true - maybe the video game medium isn't naturally going to go to 50/50 for AAA-style games. That wouldn't be wrong if women really aren't super interested in what they have to offer. In my view it's important to make certain that it's offered in good faith....but whatever happens after that is what happens.

I don't think 50/50 results in all areas ARE natural, although equal opportunities need to be offered.

Honestly I kind of feel like a 50/50 split is natural either. I mean, fishing has no gender lock in the slightest or anything, yet far more men than women do it. There's a lot of things which, likewise, have no gender gate yet one gender distinctly likes more than the other. And that's okay. I don't think there will ever be a 50/50 split in shooters for example. Though I do agree people should try to be looking to get more women into gaming (and I don't mean mobile gaming) on the whole.

I'm curious. What's the gender ratio on Pokemon, if that can even be found? That seems like something that could appeal to the more traditional female audience.

JixHedgehog posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/1/5/AALiV_AADDtP.jpg

The Jesus Christ playset comes with everything you see here!
*batteriesnotincluded*

When your wife who claims to be a virgin has a baby and three men show up bringing gifts...

Unbridled9 posted...

And that's okay.

So long as equal opportunities are offered, agreed.

My sister really enjoyed Pokemon back in the day, but I haven't seen that with my daughter/her friends. My son liked Pokemon for a year or two. Not that my individual experience means much, of course. :)

JixHedgehog posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/1/5/AALiV_AADDtP.jpg

The Jesus Christ playset comes with everything you see here!
*batteriesnotincluded*

https://youtu.be/GWud4lKkDq4?t=3

yes my nephews definitely have their own tastes and won't be encouraged into liking something they don't like or discouraged from liking something they like.

I only have girls, but they did play with traditional girls toys, but also played with action figures. Mostly wrestlers, but old power rangers too. The older one is also a massive video game player and collector of stuff, like me.

If we had a son I honestly do not think I would of cared if he played with barbies or little pet shops. Better than getting into trouble and what not.