Board 8 > NCAA Games II: Week 13 Results and Discussion Topic

(+) Yeah! (+)

and thus RBY finally gets its first legitimate regular season loss after 43 matches!

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thelefty for analysis crew 2008 imo -tranny
I have a third degree burn in flame-o-nomics -Sir Chris

Mother 3 losing that match is pretty disappointing.

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From: TsunamiXXVIII | #100
So, no, I can't agree that RBY struggled with tests it should ace.

R/B/Y doubled up Galaxy 2 and FFVI.

It had no business needing overtime to beat Star Fox 64.

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From: TsunamiXXVIII | #100
because obviously lost in all of that tl;dr stuff I've been posting is the fact that I don't think either one of these games is really all that great.

Also, I don't have a clue what your personal preferences of these games has to do with anything.

I'm talking about their performances and their relative strengths on this board, not what you personally think should happen.

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but from an objective standpoint it's really only had that one match where its opponent was superior, against SMB3

uh... how is SMB3 superior to Chrono Trigger when Chrono Trigger beat it?

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thelefty for analysis crew 2008 imo -tranny
I have a third degree burn in flame-o-nomics -Sir Chris

Pokemon is so wonky. loses by 10 to Mario World, ties Star Fox 64, beats Melee. then GSC goes and loses by 1 to MGS. what nonsense.

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xyzzy

And it would have probably beaten MGS if it had faced Portal and MGS hadn't!

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From: WarThaNemesis2 | #107
And it would have probably beaten MGS if it had faced Portal and MGS hadn't!

Actually, MGS would've lost to GSC if it hadn't faced BioShock.

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(Strategy)

man

voting to help a game's SoS out is going way too far

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thelefty for analysis crew 2008 imo -tranny
I have a third degree burn in flame-o-nomics -Sir Chris

I'm okay with this.

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Until it causes a game I like to lose, that is.

Man, that illegitimizes the results of this contest.

Oh, right, this isn't important in the grand scheme of things.

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If you are reading this signature, then you are wasting a great deal of your time.

Oh, good, the results are up. So, what's there to talk about?

#23 Paper Mario (Games of the Decades Conference) (11-2) – 25 (48.08%)
#11 Super Mario Galaxy (Twilight Barrel Galaxy Conference) (11-2) – 27 (51.92%)
--Huh, Paper Mario did a lot better here than I expected.

Yeah, me too. I love PM, but I didn't really expect it to get this close here. I might have to actually consider it for my ballot after all...nah, its best win from a quality-of-opponent standpoint is still the SFF match with SMRPG, which is good, but not signature-win quality.

Mother 3 (Sonic Overload Conference) (8-5) – 19 (43.18%)
Secret of Mana (Brawl for Broke Conference) (7-6) – 25 (56.82%)
--Secret of Mana gets back above .500 with a solid win over Mother 3.

I think I have a slightly better read on Mother 3 now...wait, 7-6? Okay, perhaps I'm not giving SoM enough credit... (looks at schedule) ...or maybe it's just faced weak competition.

#7 Super Smash Bros. Melee (Fanservice Conference) (11-2) – 38 (70.37%)
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Twilight Barrel Galaxy Conference) (9-4) – 16 (29.63%)
--Suddenly, TP has lost 4 out of 5 after a blowout defeat at the hands of Melee.

Is that even still a quality win for Melee? Well, even if it's slumping, a 70-30 against an opponent with a winning record is usually a very good thing. I might have to move Melee up a spot; we'll have to see how the game I previously had right in front of it responds.

#2 Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow (Nintendo Objections Conference) (12-1) – 22 (40.74%)
#8 Super Mario World (Thousand-Year World of Sunshine Conference) (11-2) – 32 (59.26%)
--I'm sure Tsunami will find some way to twist a 10-vote loss to Mario World in R/B/Y's favor and keep it at #1. I'll be waiting.

Okay, that was uncalled for. If you had actually seen the deleted posts you'd know that my biggest sin was bragging about bringing about this result by polarizing everyone against RBY. Now if only Chrono Trigger and Resident Evil 4 would be kind enough to lose as well, we could get some real games at the top of this thing!

Tales of Symphonia (Cult RPG Galaxy Conference) (11-2) – 31 (60.78%)
SoulCalibur II (Games of the Decades Conference) (10-3) – 20 (39.22%)
--Symphonia gets an impressive win against SC2.

Agreed. I'm still amazed that SC2 has been as good as it is, but that makes it all the better when one of my personal top 5 beats it. Now if only SA2 actually had any decent opponents backing up that brilliant record it has, I'd actually get to vote for 3 out of 4 of them at the same time! (My #5 isn't in this contest, but my top 4 are.)

Star Ocean: The Second Story (Smash Trigger Conference) (3-10) – 25 (52.08%)
Hotel Dusk: Room 215 (Smackdown Hotel Conference) (4-9) – 23 (47.92%)
--Star Ocean made a late run to overtake Hotel Dusk and got the win.

Thanks again to Hotel Dusk for exposing Diablo II as an early fraud.

Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal (Games of the Decades Conference) (9-4) – 26 (49.06%)
#9 Metal Gear Solid (Zelda Overload Conference) (12-1) – 27 (50.94%)
--MGS1 jumped out to a big lead early and looked to be off to a rout, but G/S/C fought back to make a match of it, although it couldn't close the deal.

Holy s***. MGS1 might take a hit for that. GSC's been close in all of its losses, most of which were to pretty good competition, but it hasn't beaten anything of strength and its worst loss was actually against its weakest opponent, 28-24 against B/W. (Its loss to PW3 in Week 4 was also by four votes, but with a slightly higher percentage.) Of course, given what I just moved MGS below, I'm pretty sure I'm going to take some s*** for this week as well. (Well, more s*** than usual, I mean.)

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Ulti (in one of his Post-Contest Analyses): God of War turned a 5 hour deadlock into a total laugher
Anagram: Oh God, Tidus and Yuna were involved?

From: TsunamiXXVIII | #112
Okay, that was uncalled for.

No, it was pretty called for.

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LeonhartFour posted...
I'm talking about their performances and their relative strengths on this board, not what you personally think should happen.

So was I!

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Ulti (in one of his Post-Contest Analyses): God of War turned a 5 hour deadlock into a total laugher
Anagram: Oh God, Tidus and Yuna were involved?

From: TsunamiXXVIII | #114
So was I!

Then your post makes even less sense.

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From: swirIdude | #111
Oh, right, this isn't important in the grand scheme of things.

It's important in my scheme of things!

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:p

LeonhartFour posted...
From: TsunamiXXVIII | #114
So was I!
Then your post makes even less sense.

What can I say; I'm opinionated. That's never going to change. At least I take the time to point it out when I'm drifting away from facts and into opinions; a lot of people don't bother with that.

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Ulti (in one of his Post-Contest Analyses): God of War turned a 5 hour deadlock into a total laugher
Anagram: Oh God, Tidus and Yuna were involved?

It's got nothing to do with being opinionated.

It's just that your deductions are truly ludicrous if you actually believe the stuff you posted.

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LeonhartFour posted...
It's got nothing to do with being opinionated.

It's just that your deductions are truly ludicrous if you actually believe the stuff you posted.

I'm not even sure we're talking about the same things any more.

...actually, I'm almost sure we aren't.

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Ulti (in one of his Post-Contest Analyses): God of War turned a 5 hour deadlock into a total laugher
Anagram: Oh God, Tidus and Yuna were involved?

RPI


1. Chrono Trigger (1)
2. Super Mario 64 (3)
3. Resident Evil 4 (4)
4. Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow (2)
5. Super Mario Bros. 3 (5)
6. Super Mario Galaxy 2 (7)
7. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (6)
8. Super Metroid (9)
9. Metal Gear Solid (10)
10. Final Fantasy IX (8)
11. Super Mario Galaxy (11)
12. Super Mario World (17)
13. Batman: Arkham Asylum (12)
14. Super Smash Bros. Melee (15)
15. Final Fantasy X (13)
16. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Trials & Tribulations (14)
17. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater (16)
18. Portal (18)
19. Mega Man 2 (19)
20. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (20)
21. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (21)
22. Tales of Symphonia (27)
23. Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (24)
24. Mario Kart 64 (23)
25. Final Fantasy VI (22)
Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest (25)
Sonic 3 & Knuckles (28)
Paper Mario (26)
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (29)
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (30)

Big results today give us a much needed shakeup. RBY hangs onto a Top 5 spot after suffering its first defeat of the season. SMW benefits from that by moving up to 12th, but is only the 5th highest Mario title, lead by new #2 SM64. Since FFIX was called out in this topic, it has dropped from 6th to 10th. ToS boosts up to 22nd after its underrated but quality win over Soul Calibur II.

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swirIdude posted...
RPI


1. Chrono Trigger (1)
2. Super Mario 64 (3)
3. Resident Evil 4 (4)
4. Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow (2)
5. Super Mario Bros. 3 (5)
6. Super Mario Galaxy 2 (7)
7. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (6)
8. Super Metroid (9)
9. Metal Gear Solid (10)
10. Final Fantasy IX (8)
11. Super Mario Galaxy (11)
12. Super Mario World (17)
13. Batman: Arkham Asylum (12)
14. Super Smash Bros. Melee (15)
15. Final Fantasy X (13)
16. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Trials & Tribulations (14)
17. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater (16)
18. Portal (18)
19. Mega Man 2 (19)
20. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (20)
21. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (21)
22. Tales of Symphonia (27)
23. Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (24)
24. Mario Kart 64 (23)
25. Final Fantasy VI (22)
Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest (25)
Sonic 3 & Knuckles (28)
Paper Mario (26)
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (29)
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (30)

Big results today give us a much needed shakeup. RBY hangs onto a Top 5 spot after suffering its first defeat of the season. SMW benefits from that by moving up to 12th, but is only the 5th highest Mario title, led by new #2 SM64. Since FFIX was called out in this topic, it has dropped from 6th to 10th. ToS boosts up to 22nd after its underrated but quality win over Soul Calibur II.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles sees one of its marquee wins suffer a loss, still moves up a spot because one of the games just ahead of it also lost. How did I not notice that S3&K was back in the top 30?

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Ulti (in one of his Post-Contest Analyses): God of War turned a 5 hour deadlock into a total laugher
Anagram: Oh God, Tidus and Yuna were involved?

From: TsunamiXXVIII | #119
I'm not even sure we're talking about the same things any more.

...actually, I'm almost sure we aren't.

No, we can't be.

Because if you think "objectively" R/B/Y's been playing over its head most of the season, then you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about.

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Is it sad that I've beaten 7 of the games in the top 10, and 15 of the top 30 (counting my ventures to unlock all characters and stages in Melee and Brawl as "beating the game", though)?

Nice to see Galaxy 2 move ahead of A Link to the Past. Now if only Galaxy 1 could slither into the top 10 and Mario 64 gets kicked out.

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Currently Playing - StarCraft
Hopefully Next Up - Final Fantasy VII, Metal Gear Solid, Brood War

LinkMarioSamus posted...
Is it sad that I've beaten 7 of the games in the top 10, and 15 of the top 30 (counting my ventures to unlock all characters and stages in Melee and Brawl as "beating the game", though)?

No. It's absolutely nothing.

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If you are reading this signature, then you are wasting a great deal of your time.

is it really necessary to quote the RPI in the very next post

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thelefty for analysis crew 2008 imo -tranny
I have a third degree burn in flame-o-nomics -Sir Chris

When SOTN gets into the top 30 I will get one of these topics to 500 quoting it.

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Come on Final Fantasy VI, expose Batman!

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Then you would be nothing but a miserable pile of quotes!

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If you are reading this signature, then you are wasting a great deal of your time.

But enough votes...have at you!

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Come on Batman, expose Final Fantasy VI!

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Fight like dragons, have no fear, swords are made of STEEEEEEEEL~

There's a major difference between Batman and Kefka!

Batman isn't wearing hockey pads!

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Wow, big loss for RBY. It probably stays in my top 5 though; all our top games have suffered losses now except CT and RE4. Melee lost to RBY, so this is bad for it, but it also lost to PW, which lost to SMW, so this result can also reflect positively on Melee. That adds up to a slight negative in my opinion, but I just don't see RE4 beating Melee, so I think I'm going to vote it #2. Oh and of course Melee had a great SFF win itself this week that doesn't prove very much.

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90s games > 00s games

Tsunami, you aren't the reason RBY lost, and KCF isn't the reason MVP Baseball keeps losing.

I don't understand your logic, but if you were scared that RBY would lose or thought it put up lackluster performances, why vote it #1? We're voting for the strongest game here.....

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90s games > 00s games

Bravo. Glad to see this topic is getting back on track--and by that, I mean out of these arguments and into fun stuff. I mean, yeah, having a debate is fun also, but it tends to get very bogged down, and this one really was, because now that RBY has finally lost all of those flaws are getting exposed. Although maybe it is a debate worth having. Was the real RBY the one that crushed FFVI and SMG2, and those struggles against SF64 and LA were underperformances, or was that the real RBY, something that can't really SFF its successors and needed two overtime matches to maintain its undefeated record as long as it did, and it really was playing over its head when it scored those blowouts (and probably also when it edged out Melee, but even with the earlier loss to Phoenix Wright, Melee might have still had a target on its back so I can't be sure.)

And while we're on the subject of debates, nobody else commented on my "Capcom SFF" (or rSFF) theory as to why PW3 has struggled over the past two weeks. I know I'm not allowed to say whether or not it's happening again this week (because it is facing a third straight Capcom opponent, and that's going on right now), but I still think it's interesting that it got to 10-0 with relative ease (broke 60% eight of ten weeks, 70% four of those eight), then goes out and needs overtime to beat a barely-.500 game and loses to a fringe top 25 game...and both of those games happen to be from the same company as Phoenix is. It would be totally weird if this was the case, because Phoenix Wright is a completely different genre from Street Fighter and Mega Man and the only possible overlap is that, if I'm not mistaken, PW characters have appeared in some of the more recent "Capcom vs." games.

And yeah, I want to see FFVI put up a good performance against a high-quality opponent, too, but I'm also curious to see how FFIX performs against 007. That's actually got to be one of the worst possible opponents from an RPI standpoint, because its record is so bad that beating it can't help you much and you easily could get pulled into a close match because it's still a decent game. Then again, strength of your opponents' opponents is factored into RPI a little bit, and aside from maybe Symphony of the Night, you can't get much better opponents' opponents than Goldeneye's. Lemme just see...actually, Goldeneye's SOS is better. Not even counting this week's opponents, Goldeneye's past opponents are a combined 96-51; SotN's are 93-55. Throwing out results from this week to make things even (because some opponents have played 13 and some have only played 12), it's 93-51 vs. 89-55. And of course, Goldeneye's opponent this week is 11-1 while SotN's is 10-2...so yeah. Just from the eye test, I figure SotN is still pretty high up there in SOS, but the numbers back up what I thought I perceived--it isn't #1 in SOS any more.

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Ulti (in one of his Post-Contest Analyses): God of War turned a 5 hour deadlock into a total laugher
Anagram: Oh God, Tidus and Yuna were involved?

Every game in this contest goes through ebbs and flows. It's just a matter of when and against who.

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red sox 777 posted...
Tsunami, you aren't the reason RBY lost, and KCF isn't the reason MVP Baseball keeps losing.

Yeah, I know, but I really wasn't surprised in the least, because I figured that all of the hate towards me probably would lead towards some resentment, and besides SMW is a great game in its own right.

I don't understand your logic, but if you were scared that RBY would lose or thought it put up lackluster performances, why vote it #1? We're voting for the strongest game here.....

There's always a chance that #1 is going to lose. That's why they play the games. RBY didn't always put up dominant wins, but it had what I perceived to be a tougher schedule (wrongly, or so they keep telling me) and it managed to find a way to win, week after week. Hell, here's a little story for you. Awhile back, I'd been getting a bit too worked up over this competition--big surprise, right?--and so one day, rather than rushing to the board when it was time for a new topic, I decided to try to just stay away for a bit. Hell, it was probably better if I waited until later in the topics to vote, maybe even see an official update (though Leon doesn't always post those) before I voted. Well, it turned out that my favorite game, unranked at the time, performed beyond my wildest expectations the previous day, actually managing to take a ranked game to overtime, and my little "mental health day" caused me to miss out on that OT. This was Week 8, and Pokémon Red/Blue/Yellow managed to take the overtime from Star Fox 64 by one f***ing vote. I've also induced Leon to say earlier in this topic that, yeah, if he'd had to cast a tiebreaker, he would've gone against Pokémon there. For quite a number of weeks afterwards, I'd been putting SF64 higher up on my ballot than it probably belonged, because I was mad at myself; I felt as though I'd blown a chance at pulling the huge upset, and I didn't want to penalize the game for my error when it had essentially done something amazing. And knowing what I do now, from this topic, I'm probably going to do it again this week. But that's besides the point, because deserving or not, RBY did win that match, and that's "finding a way to win". And finding a way to win when you're outplayed, which should be impossible in this format but somehow still happened, is the mark of a true champion. (It should come as no surprise to anyone that's seen my comments that I usually follow NCAA Football pretty closely, and that being as opinionated as I am I make up my own personal Top 25. Early last season, two 3-0 teams met, one near the bottom of my top 25 but in it, one outside of my top 25. The team that had been outside of it played the better game, both from the eye test and by statistical measures, but the team that had been in it already won the game in overtime. It wasn't a huge move to drop the winning team out after its bad game, but I came just shy of moving the losing team in; had them at #26. That winning team that was statistically outplayed? Auburn, the eventual BCS Champions. And personally, I thought they were outplayed in the championship game, too; also helped by the refs, but hey, champions find ways to win.)

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Ulti (in one of his Post-Contest Analyses): God of War turned a 5 hour deadlock into a total laugher
Anagram: Oh God, Tidus and Yuna were involved?

Just because a stastically worse team wins sometimes does not mean they deserve to be ranked higher than those they are worse than statistically.

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This is a popularity vote, not a sports contest, whatever it's called. Games don't have heart, can't be clutch and can't be "outplayed".

Everything you base your logic on is dumb.

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Whoo, sanity.

oh my god tsunami

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Yeah, R/B/Y has really "managed" to find a way to win a schedule where half of its opponents are .500 or worse. The only real "surprise" win on R/B/Y's schedule was Melee. The margins may have been surprising against FFVI and Galaxy 2, but it was always the favorite to win those.

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So what you're saying is that classless media whore R/B/Y ran up the score on FFVI and Galaxy 2!

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Darn right! It was trying to earn favor in the eyes of the pollsters and was trying to artificially bolster its RPI rating!

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Also:

Super Mario World > Pokemon RBY > Super Mario Galaxy 2 > Super Mario Galaxy > Super Mario World

Yet more proof that Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World have been underperforming against fellow Mario games because they get the brunt of the anti-votes for being "more iconic".

In that case...could a game that really lost to Metal Gear Solid 2 stand up to A Link to the Past?

Oh yeah and I forgot to comment last week, but now we've seen two cases suggesting that TWEWY > FFVI

1) TWEWY and FFVI share a common opponent and TWEWY fared far better.
2) TWEWY > MGS2 > Super Metroid > FFVI (> MGS3 > MGS2 > Super Metroid > FFVI > SMG2 > MGS2 > Super Metroid > FFVI > blah blah blah whatever)

Also Leon can't possibly be happy with the current top 5. Fortunately 6 of my personal top 10 are in the top 5 (and no, Mario 64 isn't one of them).

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On the other hand, TWEWY only got 58% on GTA4, so that may as well be a loss.

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And of course, Goldeneye's opponent this week is 11-1 while SotN's is 10-2...so yeah. Just from the eye test, I figure SotN is still pretty high up there in SOS, but the numbers back up what I thought I perceived--it isn't #1 in SOS any more.

Yes, in fact, here's the up to the second SoS rankings!

1. Super Mario Galaxy 2
2. GoldenEye 007
3. Super Mario Bros. 3
4. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
5. Final Fantasy VI
6. Kingdom Hearts
7. Super Mario 64
8. Ratchet & Clank Future: A Crack in Time
9. Super Street Fighter IV
10. Chrono Trigger

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Aw yeah R&C, at least you're top ten in something.

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red sox 777 posted...
KCF isn't the reason MVP Baseball keeps losing.

If anything, I am the reason why it is not getting completely blown out because of my unparalleled support for it. I have been the most vocal supporter for a single game here and that in turn is resonating with the hearts of the voters as they see that this man's pursuit to see the game he loves so much get recognized in the winning column, and exhibiting incredible tenacity in his mission, is unlike anything that they have ever seen and feel compelled to join the cause

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"Anybody interested in grabbing a couple of burgers and hittin' the cemetery?" -Royal
"Oh sure, walk to the sun"- Guybrush

I suspect someone has probably replied to my last post by now, but if they have, I don't want to see it at the moment and I'll respond tomorrow, maybe. I just want to apologize for blowing up like that yesterday. I know I already acknowledged that I messed up, but I don't think I ever actually apologized. I thought I had gotten past it; we were still having the debate tonight but it wasn't getting out of hand, but I guess I still was a bit sensitive because I just got into a fight at home. I made an off-hand remark that I didn't think needed any explanation, and I felt that the fact that I was even asked to explain what I meant told me that I had just said something stupid, so I tried to just brush it off with a "never mind". Well, unfortunately, "never mind" is never good enough for my father, and when he kept pressing the issue, I just blew up about how I'm tired of having to explain myself to everyone, and then I realized that what I thought was the same situation was actually the exact opposite because there I had said too little and here I just didn't know when to shut up. But either way, I feel horrible about all of this and I want to apologize.

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Ulti (in one of his Post-Contest Analyses): God of War turned a 5 hour deadlock into a total laugher
Anagram: Oh God, Tidus and Yuna were involved?

MVP Baseball's performances have been fairly consistent, really. 10-15 votes per match.

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I was just saying what should be happening. What actually has happened is certainly not what I had in mind

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