Board 8 > Leonhart plays lots of Final Fantasy games! [spoilers] [nostalgia] [squall]

(+) Yeah! (+)

To this day, I'm confused by Sephiroth (or Jenova, whatever) leaving his sword stuck in President Shinra. Did he stab him, then wait for Cloud and company to leave, go 'Whoops, forgot this' and grab it?

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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I dunno how that works either. I'm guessing he sort of left it in his corpse as a sign for Cloud and company to see (since he was the one who opened Cloud's cell, so he obviously wanted him to see it), and then he came back and got it afterward, I guess.

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From: LeonhartFour | #299
So I take it you don't like Rufus very much.

I don't dislike him, I just think he's kind of pointless. He shows up at a dramatic moment, makes a speech about how he's going to change things, and seems set up to be a major antagonist and general dick for seeing his fathers death as his own good fortune, and then...his organization barely matters any more (and when it does it's usually the Turks, who don't really care beyond their paychecks anyway) and he himself almost never appears and certainly doesn't seem to achieve anything meaningful. Kind of a wasted character really.

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Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.

After everything settles down, Cloud and company decide it’s time to leave Midgar to stop Sephiroth. Barret thinks they need a leader and he thinks it should be him. However, when Tifa and Aerith think Cloud should be leader, Barret’s pride is wounded, but he acquiesces. He says to divide them up into two groups. You can get a couple of funny reactions depending on what party you choose. If you pick Tifa and Aerith to go with you, Barret will make a sarcastic comment about you choosing the girls. I didn’t remember ever picking Barret and Red XIII before to see if anything happens, so I decided to go with it to see. Once you get off the menu, Tifa and Aerith sort of look at each other for a second before going:

Aerith: “Unexpected…”
Tifa: “…Combination.”

Then Tifa tells Cloud to have fun with just the guys and they leave. Owned.

Anyway, Midgar has been a wild, wild ride, and I’ll be sad to leave it behind for a long time. From the destruction of the pillar up until you leave, Midgar was absolutely amazing. What a wonderful stretch of gaming. I love the end of the Shinra Building with boss fight after boss fight. It’s a great way to close out Midgar. Lots of action and lots of laying the foundation for what’s ahead. And to think, Midgar is essentially the prologue of the game!

Bonus Question: What do you like and dislike about Midgar?

It could be anything about Midgar: The story, the gameplay, the characters, the design, the locations, anything!

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From: LeonhartFour | #304
Bonus Question: What do you like and dislike about Midgar?

Like: The whole sequence leading up to the destruction of Sector 7, and the Shinra building and escape sequence.

Dislike: Uh...can't think of anything off the top of my head. Let's say the sewer part, just because it's a sewer.

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Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.

Nice answers. I echo your sentiment through and through apart from finding Aerith a bit more attractive than Tifa (I know, I'm alone)




Like about Midgar: The destruction of Sector 7 and especially the Shinra building.
Dislike about Midgar: Wall Market.

As for Kalm, the story is awesome the first time, but on later playthroughs, it's essentially an hour-long unskippable cutscene: not my idea of fun. Heck, the thing is so long, Barret asks if you want to save during it.

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"I am SO gonna kick your ass!" - "No, no, no, no, no. I'm gonna kick YOUR ass!"
Nominate Yuri Lowell / Flynn Scifo

Eh, you're doing enough that it doesn't feel like you're just sitting there watching a long cutscene.

But I don't mind lots of exposition anyway as long as it's good, and Kalm is good.

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"Hold on a minute! That testimony stinks!"
"Witness! You can't just say 'Hello' and expect us to get anywhere! I want you to testify!"

From: Panthera | #303
I don't dislike him, I just think he's kind of pointless. He shows up at a dramatic moment, makes a speech about how he's going to change things, and seems set up to be a major antagonist and general dick for seeing his fathers death as his own good fortune, and then...his organization barely matters any more (and when it does it's usually the Turks, who don't really care beyond their paychecks anyway) and he himself almost never appears and certainly doesn't seem to achieve anything meaningful. Kind of a wasted character really.

Yeah, I guess I can see what you mean about Rufus being wasted potential. I would've liked for him to have a bigger role, too.

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Midgar and Kalm both great. Stuff after is not so great, but oh well.

I like Rufus quite a bit, personally. He does a pretty good job of mostly sitting back and manipulating the PCs into going after Sephiroth, and I liked his scene with Heidegger in Costa del Sol a lot. Could have been better, but still solid.

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So Rufus Shinra is Revolver Ocelot, and Heidegger is Fatman?

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"Stay with me until the end. Please."
"Not until the end. Always."

I don't think I dislike anything about Midgar except maybe the script.

For some reason it seems particularly bad here.

Script, as in, translation.

I don't like how they use "Ummm" in weird ways in the script when they clearly don't mean a sound people make when they're trying to think of an answer and stuff like that.

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Oh right, I should mention that I stole some ATOMIC SCISSORS (I love the name of that weapon) for Barret and learned my first Enemy Skill, Matra Magic!

I should go ahead and say that I am an Enemy Skills Materia fanboy. I love this thing. It is always equipped and in use. It's strange that I love it so much because I'm not very big on Blue Magic characters in other games, but I dunno. It feels more useful and with a good variety of cost-effective spells. Plus, you can't beat Big Guard + White Wind. I'm not sure why the game gives you 4 total when you only have a 3-person party, but whatever.

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http://i.imgur.com/CbfFb.jpg

"They gave me some new Materia! I can't wait to use it!"

A First Class SOLDIER excited about Pre-Emptive Materia, huh?

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How do you pronounce "Nibelheim" anyway?

I've heard people say "Nee-bil-heim," but I always called it "Nih-bil-heim" myself.

Same with Midgar. They pronounce it "Mid-gar" in AC, but I liked running the syllables together and make it sound more like "Mid-ger" because Mid-gar sounds too stilted.

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You know, it's kind of interesting that some of the conversations Cloud has with the people of Nibelheim sort of hint to what really happened. Like when you talk to the guy with the camera, he doesn't recognize you at first, but when he does, he sort of quips, "So that's how it is, huh?" Which to me seems to imply that he's talking about how Cloud's just a regular grunt and didn't make it into SOLDIER.

Also, what the heck is up with going into the Item Shop anyway? Like, Cloud will just go blank and not be able to remember anything.

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"Why must we always choose between certain death and probable death?"
"I'm in an epic battle to the death, FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF!"

I don't think I've ever spoken "Nibelheim" out loud in my life!

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We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny

Well, surely you pronounce it in your mind when you read it!

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Another little interesting "hint" here is when Cloud's mom asks him, "So is this a SOLDIER uniform?" Cloud begins to say "...Mom, I..." and then the screen flashes white.

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Support Barret Wallace (Final Fantasy VII) for Character Battle IX!
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Important Question: Do you take the orthopedic underwear out of Tifa's dresser or not?

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"Why must we always choose between certain death and probable death?"
"I'm in an epic battle to the death, FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF!"

More little hints.

Tifa shows absolutely no reaction to seeing Cloud again.

When the camera guy tries to get Tifa to ask Sephiroth to take a picture, he also asks her if she can ask "him," too. To me, that's clearly referring to Zack, because he wouldn't have any issue asking Cloud himself for a picture.

Now off to Mt. Nibel!

Also, for fun, if you try to mess with Sephiroth's equipment in the menu, he'll just go "..." at you!

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"Hold on a minute! That testimony stinks!"
"Witness! You can't just say 'Hello' and expect us to get anywhere! I want you to testify!"

Man, Level 3 spells used with an All Materia look so cool.

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Support Barret Wallace (Final Fantasy VII) for Character Battle IX!
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Love those hints.

FF7's spell animations do sadly little for me. I think their mastery of 3D was pretty poor there unfortunately. I'd have to rewatch the MT L3 spells again, granted... there's just plenty of memorably unimpressive ones like Ice 1 and the entire Quake series.

Nibble-heim and hard-g Midgar(d), for the record. I've never heard the latter pronounced otherwise, think it's pretty standardised. Nibelheim I've heard at least three pronunciations for (nibble, neebel, and Nigel-with-a-B).

Come to think of it I've heard both Mid-garr and Mid-gur (with a schwa), granted, though that feels like a minor distinction.

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Okay, we've reached the halfway save point, so I'll give a few brief thoughts on what's been covered so far. Barret insists on hearing about Sephiroth and the crisis for the Planet while they're all together. I love Barret and Aerith sort of interjecting their thoughts into the story while Cloud was narrating. That's one of those examples of good "normal" character interaction. Makes them seem more real when they're curious and asking questions.

I really like the scene where Cloud talks to his mom, mostly for how he deals with it in the present day. You can tell from his reluctance to talk about it that it's a very painful subject for him. I thought that was a nice touch there. If you go into Tifa's house, she'll ask you questions depending on how much you snoop around. I think you lose affection points the more you snoop around because you invaded her privacy and whatnot. If you play the piano, Cloud will play a bit of the main theme. Remember that for later because if you play it when you get to Nibelheim later on a couple of different occasions, you can get an item from it, including Tifa's Level 4 Limit Break later on in the game.

When we start going through the mountains, they reach a Mako fountain where they start discussing Materia, the knowledge of the Ancients, and magic. Sephiroth goes on a little tangent about how little he respects Hojo, calling him a "walking mass of complexes" and saying he was an inexperienced man given the task of taking over for a scientific genius. It's sort of ironic that he has so little respect for Hojo as a scientist considering he's his father, and without his scientific knowledge, Sephiroth never would have been born as he was.

When you get to the reactor, you find the problem with the monsters appearing is that a tiny little valve is broken. Really, that's it? After the valve is closed, Sephiroth takes a peek into the chambers where the Mako is stored and finds something interesting inside. He tells Cloud/Zack to take a look inside, too, and when he does, he finds a monster smiling at him. He's obviously freaked out about it, and Sephiroth only adds to that sense of shock by telling him these people are humans who have been showered with Mako. This is how real members of SOLDIER are made. Cloud/Zack is different because he's still human.

This prompts Cloud/Zack to ask Sephiroth if that means he's different, too, which sets him off. I really like this scene because it's probably the only part of the game where Sephiroth shows some genuine human emotion. He starts wondering if he's the same as those monsters. He always felt he was different, but not like this. Then a monster breaks out of its chamber and Genesis appears out of nowhere quoting poetry, and...oh whoops wrong game.

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"The great GF...Bahamut."
"...GF? I...? Using my powers...It is you humans...I fear..."

Also, you may notice that Tifa has surprisingly little to add to the story! I'll deal with that after while for all you Tifa haters out there!

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When the story continues, we find that Sephiroth has hidden himself away in the library of the Shinra Mansion, reading all the books contained therein, which detail the history of the Ancients, the Jenova Project, and stuff like that. He reads for days on end like a man possessed. Then one day...The scene is set by the first part of Sephiroth's theme ("Those Chosen by the Planet") playing, the part with the bell. It does a good job of setting the mood.

When we go down to talk to Sephiroth, he seems very different. Before he was sullen and downcast as he continued to learn the truth about himself, but now he's...arrogant and angry. He begins to explain the history of the Cetra to Cloud/Zack. The Planet originally belonged to them. They were a migratory people who settled the Planet as they moved from place to place, and at the end of their journey, they would reach the Promised Land. Then people who despised the pilgrim life began to appear and started to settle down, taking advantage of the benefits of the Planet without giving anything in return.

Then one day, calamity struck. The non-Cetra survived because they hid, but the Cetra were sacrificed in order to spare the Planet. It's sort of ironic how Sephiroth seems to despise the rest of the human race for this, but at this point, does he realize that the "Calamity from the Skies" who wiped out the Ancients was Jenova? You know, his "mother" and the one who gave him his powers. Just sayin'. After his discourse, Sephiroth begins to leave, declaring that he's going to see his mother, and then his theme kicks into high gear, which was a great dramatic touch right there.

By the time Cloud/Zack leaves the Shinra Mansion, the town is already on fire. Then we're treated to some awkward field models of Sephiroth tapping some people on the shoulder with the Masamune and them suddenly falling over. But then we get THE FIRE WALK, one of Sephiroth's most famous moments. For some reason, this scene doesn't do anything for me. I'm usually impressed by "cool" stuff like this, but for some reason, this particular moment kinda falls flat for me. Go figure.

Cloud/Zack runs to the reactor to confront Sephiroth, only to find that Tifa's way ahead of him and tries to attack him with the Masamune. Unfortunately, he wrests it away from her and slashes her with it, which doesn't kill her. It's kind of interesting that he doesn't kill her instantly even though he easily could have. Makes you wonder if he intended to and she miraculously survived because Zangan was able to help her in time.

Then Cloud rushes in to confront Sephiroth, who laughs at the appearance of those creatures who have come to try to take the Planet away from Mother. Cloud asks Sephiroth about their shared sadness, but Sephiroth laughs it off, asking what he has to be sad about. He's been given the task of taking the Planet back. His misguided Messiah Complex is pretty interesting, really, because he's not a true Ancient and neither is Jenova. Yet the special circumstances of his birth granted him the ability to far surpass what the Ancients were able to accomplish. Part of me wonders why Sephiroth only took Jenova's head when he left. Perhaps the documents in the library mentioned something about the Reunion, so maybe he had some understanding of it?

The story suddenly ends because Cloud can't remember what happened when he fought Sephiroth. In typical Barret fashion, he claims to understand nothing. He says he's "going,
going,
going,
going,
gone!"

And he's leaving the thinking to us! Tifa asks Cloud how bad she was hurt when Sephiroth attacked her, and he said he thought she was a goner. Very perceptive question, and again, we'll get back to that soon enough!

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http://i.imgur.com/fe05x.png

Downstairs, we're given the PHS, which gives us the ability to change party members on the world map or at a save point. What the heck does PHS stand for anyway? "Personal Handheld Service...?" Whatever. If you go back up to the second floor of the inn and examine the dresser in the corner of the room, you'll notice an item that's just too far out of reach. If you examine it five times, Cloud will express his frustration at being unable to reach it by kicking the dresser, which will cause it to fall down onto his head! And good thing for us, too, 'cause it's a Megalixir!

If you talk to the people of Kalm, a couple of them will mention seeing a dude with a black cloak and a huge sword heading east. Wonder who that could be...! Something that's pretty interesting is if you talk to some of the people, they'll ask you questions about what you think about Shinra and the convenience they provide, and you can choose to agree or disagree about how good life is because of it. That's kind of one of the interesting subplots the Shinra Company provides and one of the reasons I like them as villains. It makes you think about the price and consequences of convenience. How much is too much to pay for us to have an easier, more comfortable to life? Makes you think.

You can find plenty of items around Kalm before you go, including a Peacemaker, a weapon for Vincent that you have no use for until much later. Come on, we'll take a shotgun nobody can use, but we won't take a megaphone? Bah. After you leave Kalm, you can head for the Chocobo Stables so you can try to cross the swamp, but we'll save that for another day.

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Tifa rocks.
So does the backstory.

We should have a "best romantic pairing" contest sometime too.

From: LeonhartFour | #327
Come on, we'll take a shotgun nobody can use, but we won't take a megaphone

It's almost like one is a potentially useful weapon that someone could use in a pinch and the other has no apparent practical value!

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Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.

We take tons of crap that has no apparent practical value! And we sell it for money, darn it!

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"Hold on a minute! That testimony stinks!"
"Witness! You can't just say 'Hello' and expect us to get anywhere! I want you to testify!"

I'm sure Cloud and co. (aside Red XIII) could use the shotgun.
They would just rather not equip it since they'd be far better off using their weapon of choice.
Just like they'd rather not be unequipped and that registers in game as being unable to unequip!

Now, let’s talk about Tifa and her “bad habit of withholding crucial information from party members” deal here. She gets a lot of hate for this, and in my personal opinion, it’s wayyyyyyyyy overblown. I’m sure none of you Tifa haters will be convinced otherwise, but here’s why I think people are way too hard on Tifa for all of this.

First, there’s absolutely no chance in a million years in a million lifetimes in a million parallel universes (Get the point yet?) that Tifa could have predicted what would have happened to Cloud. None whatsoever. It’s a little harsh to hold her so responsible for something she couldn’t have possibly predicted would happen. It’s not like none of us have ever done something that had unforeseen and unexpected consequences, right? So cut her some slack! She doesn’t really deserve to be thrashed for that.

Secondly, how in the heck is she supposed to breach the subject with Cloud, and what would it have accomplished anyway? “Hey Cloud you big dummy you weren’t really in Nibelheim whatchu talkin’ ‘bout Willis.” Yeah, that’s really going to clear things up and make Cloud less confused. The issue of “How in the heck does Cloud know all of this stuff if he was never there?” still exists even if she says something.

And that brings us to the next point. Tifa is every bit as confused about this as Cloud is. She doesn’t get what’s going on either. What is she supposed to say to “clear things up” when she doesn’t know what’s going on herself? You may say, “Well she could have at least thrown it out there so maybe they could’ve talked through it” or something. But again, what does it accomplish? Not a darn thing. The confusion will still be there because neither of them knows what’s going on.

The next two things are the big kickers about why people shouldn’t be so hard on Tifa for all this mess. One, Tifa didn’t know the real truth either! Telling Cloud her version of events wouldn’t have fixed anything because her version of the events is incorrect! And even if Cloud had somewhat accepted her version of events as truth, it still creates a HUGE problem because…

Sephiroth uses Tifa’s version of the events to manipulate Cloud in the first place! And Sephiroth is obviously lying about the whole thing because he knows full well Cloud was really there. But he uses the fact that Tifa didn’t think Cloud was ever there to manipulate and trick Cloud into thinking he was just a Sephiroth Clone constructed piece by piece by Hojo after Nibelheim was destroyed. That’s where the whole problem lies. Only Sephiroth knows the whole truth of what happened at that point, and he uses that knowledge against BOTH of them, Tifa and Cloud, to create a huge amount of doubt which allows him to manipulate Cloud as he sees fit.

So I’m sure you Tifa haters will still cling to your hatred, but I’ve said my piece and I feel better now, so that’s all that matters.

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"Hold on a minute! That testimony stinks!"
"Witness! You can't just say 'Hello' and expect us to get anywhere! I want you to testify!"

And her boobs are huge.

From: pjbasis | #333
And her boobs are huge.

isnt that the only reason people like her anyway?

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Really, all that's just more reason why Sephiroth is an underrated villain (yes, I get to call him underrated, because it's gotten so popular to bash him and say he's lame that no one pays any attention to the awesome mind****ery he pulls on Cloud)

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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

From: Kirby Driver Reborn | #334
isnt that the only reason people like her anyway?

Nope.

I just get tired of hearing people say "Tifa's such a horrible, despicable person because she didn't tell Cloud!" No, that doesn't make her a horrible, despicable person. It makes her a normal person who made an honest mistake because she's scared, and I don't blame her. I sympathize with her, in fact. It's hard to tell someone you care about the hard truth, and the harder the truth, the harder it is to tell them.

Now I'm not saying Tifa is totally without blame. Should she have said something to try to sort things out? Probably. But the point is that it isn't Tifa's fault that Cloud gives the Black Materia to Sephiroth because, as long as neither one of them knew the real truth, there was nothing she could have done to prevent what happened. Say it with me, class: There was nothing she could have done to prevent what happened. Very good. And they had no opportunity to find out the real truth before the Lifestream dive because Cloud's mind was so messed up that he couldn't have sorted it out on his own.

So take it easy.

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http://img.imgcake.com/leonpngpe.png
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I need to stop lurking and say it: with your love of character interaction, you need to play Persona 4.

Enjoying the write ups. The first disc of FFVII is incredible and it is great fun to re-live it vicariously. Still amazes me they got it so right.

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Praise the Black Turtle, Game of the Decade Guru Champ.
(Well, I never promised creativity, did I?!)

Yeah, people tell me that.

What I've heard about the length of the game is a bit offputting though. I don't like really long RPGs.

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Interesting analysis of Tifa there. I can definitely see where you're coming from, but I still don't like her. >_>

Anyway, the post was a while ago, but I just want to say that I love Enemy Skill materia.
On my most recent playthroughs (the last of which was 5-ish years ago), I picked up Beta right away. That thing is so damn broken considering how early you can get it.

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"I am SO gonna kick your ass!" - "No, no, no, no, no. I'm gonna kick YOUR ass!"
Nominate Yuri Lowell / Flynn Scifo

Hey, it's okay not to like Tifa!

Just dislike her for the right reasons...!

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Going way back now cause I just got caught up. I have seen the scene with Reeve's parents and the Cait Sith every time I played, but somehow I never actually put 2 and 2 together and realized that was Reeve's parents. Man this game and its great foreshadowing.

I also agree with everything you have said about character interaction, Tifa, and Barret. So nice to find other people who realize what a great character Barret is.

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(Maniac64 at work) [Browncoat] ~Board 570901~
All the proteins, vitamins, and carbs of your grandma's best turkey dinner, plus 15% alcohol.

Wait, Reeve's parents? What?

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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

You can peek in on a conversation between Reeve's parents in one of the rooms in the Honeybee Inn.

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http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/8718/leonflowchart.png

Oh, the old couple? I thought they were just random people

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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Well, it never says they're Reeve's parents, but the context of the situation (You can find Cait Sith in the corner of the room bouncing up and down. Plus, his theme plays during the scene. And they talk about how their son was recently promoted to the head of a division within Shinra) heavily implies that they are.

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Support Barret Wallace (Final Fantasy VII) for Character Battle IX!
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3834/banner1barret.jpg

But I love little touches like that you don't catch the first time you play, and when you replay it, you're like, "Whoa, that's cool!"

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"So cold. I am always by your side."
"There ain't no gettin' off of this train we on!"

Anyway, we're going to play here in a bit.

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http://www.gifsoup.com/view/593815/frasier-and-niles-dance-o.gif

From: LeonhartFour | #346
But I love little touches like that you don't catch the first time you play, and when you replay it, you're like, "Whoa, that's cool!"

Yep. I didn't even know that thing about Reeve until this topic, kind of cool. I'll try to remember to look for it if I ever play FFVII again (which...I won't <_< But still, just in case!)

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We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny

Whoo, Choco-Mog Materia get! My first summon!

IMPORTANT QUESTION: Is it "Kweh" or "Wark?"

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http://i.imgur.com/fe05x.png

Kweh!

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Choco Choco Choco