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Board 8 > Why is Chrono Cross so hated?

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OctilIery
10/01/11 12:00:00 PM
#1:


Just spent about an hour playing it, and I love it every bit as I remember loving it.

What do people have against it? :(

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Oxbridge
10/01/11 12:01:00 PM
#2:


It's worse than CT.

That's the only reason.

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Bigwig_rah
10/01/11 12:02:00 PM
#3:


People wanted a re-release of Trigger. Cross was a new and different game that didn't cater to their nostalgia. Simple as that pretty much.

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UniversalCow
10/01/11 12:03:00 PM
#4:


Because the battle music gets annoying after about 2 encounters

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LeonhartFour
10/01/11 12:05:00 PM
#5:


I played Chrono Cross before Chrono Trigger, and I'm still not a big fan of it. CC seems to adhere to the philosophy of "You can never have too much of anything," and I disagree.

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TheNinJa7777
10/01/11 12:05:00 PM
#6:


I adore Chrono Cross. It's a different game and most people went into it expecting Chrono Trigger 2.

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_Harmonica_
10/01/11 12:05:00 PM
#7:


The pacing is kinda ass and most of the characters suck

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Rad Link 5
10/01/11 12:07:00 PM
#8:


Because it doesn't work as a sequel to Chrono Trigger on any single level. From its treatment of the old cast, to its completely conflicting themes, it is an awful sequel in every single way.

If you want to ignore the fact that it's from the same universe and measure the game on its merits, then there's room for debate.

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charmander6000
10/01/11 12:08:00 PM
#9:


It wasn't Chrono Trigger seems to be the main thing.

Of course the game wasn't the best game ever type either.

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UniversalCow
10/01/11 12:09:00 PM
#10:


Oh yeah the "let's fill this game with dozens of pointless and worthless characters" thing was really disappointing.

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Rad Link 5
10/01/11 12:10:00 PM
#11:


It didn't have to be Chrono Trigger. It just shouldn't have been its polar opposite.

This article sums up my feelings pretty well on why Chrono Cross is such an awful sequel.

Warning: Spoilers for the Entire Chrono Series
http://www.rpgdl.com/archives/457

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redrocket
10/01/11 12:22:00 PM
#12:


OctilIery posted...
Just spent about an hour playing it, and I love it every bit as I remember loving it.

What do people have against it? :(

Play through the whole game, then come back and we'll talk.

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BoshStrikesBack
10/01/11 12:29:00 PM
#13:


The pacing is kinda ass and most of the characters suck

And yet, those characters that are developed receive just as much development as the CT cast. Just think of characters like Funguy as simple gameplay additions (which they are, let's be honest).

Anyway, as far as legitimate complaints go, the most common ones are that the story pacing is pretty off at times, the battle music is the only subpar track in a sea of gems (though it's the most common one), and the game completely undermines the happy-go-lucky vibe of the first game (which I happen to love, but can completely understand why it would turn someone away). Also it's very easy, but that's a given with most jRPGs.

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thundersheep
10/01/11 12:29:00 PM
#14:


Terrible characters, took way too long to get interesting, and it was the long awaited sequel to what was the best game of it's genre for many people. If it didn't have "Chrono" in the name it would just be an average PSX RPG nobody talks about like Legend of Legaia. Completely mediocre game that really never should have been touted as a sequel.

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Forceful_Dragon
10/01/11 12:31:00 PM
#15:


redrocket posted...
OctilIery posted...
Just spent about an hour playing it, and I love it every bit as I remember loving it.

What do people have against it? :(

Play through the whole game, then come back and we'll talk.




And then you get to Miguel.

And the stage is set.

And the music begins.


And you're like "Holy **** this game is AMAZING".

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LeonhartFour
10/01/11 12:31:00 PM
#16:


From: BoshStrikesBack | #013
And yet, those characters that are developed receive just as much development as the CT cast. Just think of characters like Funguy as simple gameplay additions (which they are, let's be honest).


Well, you would hope they could manage a 5% success rate.

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BoshStrikesBack
10/01/11 12:33:00 PM
#17:


If it didn't have "Chrono" in the name it would just be an average PSX RPG nobody talks about like Legend of Legaia. Completely mediocre game that really never should have been touted as a sequel.

Well, no, actually. It has the best graphics and arguably the best soundtrack on the original Playstation, so aesthetically it's unquestionably fantastic. Really now, I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but comparing Cross to Legend of Legaia?

took way too long to get interesting,

This is objectively wrong. The opening sequence is fantastic- a flashforward is always a good way to jump straight into the action- and the "scene on the beach" happens about ten minutes in. What you're probably complaining about is the dragging portion towards the middle of disc one, which is fair.

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SlymDayspring
10/01/11 12:34:00 PM
#18:


I never actually liked CT, so I had no issue with CC on that front. I thought CC had fantastic music, setting, battle system, etc...but the story got really bad towards the end, bringing it down a bit.

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thundersheep
10/01/11 12:34:00 PM
#19:


Well, no, actually. It has the best graphics and arguably the best soundtrack on the original Playstation, so aesthetically it's unquestionably fantastic. Really now, I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but comparing Cross to Legend of Legaia?

Well no Square game released during that period with as big a budget would actually be that unpopular, but I was trying to illustrate the quality of the game.

It's terrible.

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LeonhartFour
10/01/11 12:36:00 PM
#20:


From: BoshStrikesBack | #020
more variety isn't a bad thing!


Yes, this seems to be Chrono Cross's philosophy, and I don't agree.

I don't mind unimportant or undeveloped characters, but don't give me completely useless characters who have virtually no personality and no unique characteristics in battle because that gives me no incentive to use them.

Literally never used anybody other than Serge, Karsh, Norris, and Fargo except when I had to.

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BoshStrikesBack
10/01/11 12:37:00 PM
#21:


Well, you would hope they could manage a 5% success rate.

Except this assumes that the writers of Cross genuinely tried to craft a cast of 40-odd intricate, deep characters, and just "accidentally" produced people like Funguy. That's not how it happened. You've got your solid cast of 7-8 characters, some endearing secondary characters like Nikki, and then a random array of tertiary characters who are no more than glorified equipment options.

So long as the core is there, more variety isn't a bad thing!

Well no Square game released during that period with as big a budget would actually be that unpopular, but I was trying to illustrate the quality of the game.

Even if we drop the Square logo, Cross would still be talked about for its aesthetics alone. You're making the mistake Ulti used to make: you so blindly and comically hate the game that you insist that it "wouldn't be talked about" (aka no redeemable qualities) if not for its lineage, when in reality it's one of the most gorgeous aesthetic creations in Square's catalog. No one's saying you have to drool over the gameplay or story like I do, but at least give the game credit where credit is due.

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BoshStrikesBack
10/01/11 12:39:00 PM
#22:


I don't mind unimportant or undeveloped characters, but don't give me completely useless characters who have virtually no personality and no unique characteristics in battle because that gives me no incentive to use them.

Hypothetical situation: take Chrono Trigger as-is, and add in a number of entirely optional playable characters- each with a new battle sprite and a couple of unique techs- that do not undergo any significant character development, but add to the gameplay variety.

Is CT better or worse as a result? Not saying there's a right answer; this just helps make clear what your priorities are in a game. I get the feeling you're a Portal 1 > Portal 2 type: tightness in design is better than embellished variety.

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Bigwig_rah
10/01/11 12:40:00 PM
#23:


I don't mind unimportant or undeveloped characters, but don't give me completely useless characters who have virtually no personality and no unique characteristics in battle because that gives me no incentive to use them.

Literally never used anybody other than Serge, Karsh, Norris, and Fargo except when I had to.

I've never understood this complaint. The extra characters don't take anything away from the game, so who cares if you're given the option the use them?

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SlymDayspring
10/01/11 12:41:00 PM
#24:


I always liked the large cast of characters thing, like in CC and suikoden, as long as there are still some characters who get developed well. It just gives you more options and sort of something to 'collect'. I mean, nobody seems to be bothered by this sort of thing in, say, pokemon.

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Viktor Vaughn
10/01/11 12:44:00 PM
#25:


my legend of legaia sense is tingling

stop hatin' on legend of legaia

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BoshStrikesBack
10/01/11 12:44:00 PM
#26:


I mean, nobody seems to be bothered by this sort of thing in, say, pokemon.

My biggest problem with Pokemon is how they throw in characters like the Venonat on Route 12 without any real development. If you're not going to bother fleshing them out, just stick with your core cast of Red, Squirtle, Charmander, Bulbasaur, Pikachu, and Mewtwo; game would've been tons better!

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thundersheep
10/01/11 12:45:00 PM
#27:


Is CT better or worse as a result? Not saying there's a right answer; this just helps make clear what you're priorities are in a game.

I know you're not asking me, but this definitely makes it worse. For me there is basically an expectation that when you get new characters in an RPG that they're going to have interesting personalities and add a lot to the gameplay and the story. I mean look at Magus in CT or Yuffie and Vincent in FFVII. Even if characters are optional, they should add more than just a few unique attacks to the game.

From: SlymDayspring | #024
I always liked the large cast of characters thing, like in CC and suikoden, as long as there are still some characters who get developed well. It just gives you more options and sort of something to 'collect'. I mean, nobody seems to be bothered by this sort of thing in, say, pokemon.


But every Pokemon has just as much personality and relevance as the rest of them, other than a few exceptions like legendaries and gifts.

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LeonhartFour
10/01/11 12:46:00 PM
#28:


I don't like Pokemon either, so you're making fun of the wrong person!

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BoshStrikesBack
10/01/11 12:47:00 PM
#29:


But every Pokemon has just as much personality and relevance as the rest of them,

Ah, right. So clearly, the way to make Chrono Cross better is to just have none of the characters receive any development. Brilliant

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Rad Link 5
10/01/11 12:48:00 PM
#30:


Now hang on, let's be fair.

Does anyone really want to know more about a character like Mr. Mime? Isn't it a positive thing to not give him any development and keep him as just sort of a bit character?

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GranzonEx
10/01/11 12:48:00 PM
#31:


Pokemon are tools to be used. Characters are meant to be part of a story.

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KamikazePotato
10/01/11 12:48:00 PM
#32:


I haven't played CC, but the large recruiting for Suikoden makes perfect sense as you are literally building an army. If CC is more of a typical JRPG, then having a bunch of party members would cheapen the core members of the group, definitely.

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Rad Link 5
10/01/11 12:49:00 PM
#33:


From: GranzonEx | #031
Pokemon are tools to be used.


Heartless.

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SlymDayspring
10/01/11 12:49:00 PM
#34:


But every Pokemon has just as much personality and relevance as the rest of them, other than a few exceptions like legendaries and gifts.

then how is that different than in CC? everyone has just as little personality, except for a few exceptions. use the important characters and ignore the rest if that is how you want to play. like, most of CC's characters that have no development are completely optional.

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Viktor Vaughn
10/01/11 12:49:00 PM
#35:


I for one am VERY interested in Mr. Mime's tragic backstory prior to being caught by Pokemon Trainer ButtFart on Route 531

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Weakupedia
10/01/11 12:50:00 PM
#36:


Bigwig_rah posted...
People wanted a re-release of Trigger. Cross was a new and different game that didn't cater to their nostalgia. Simple as that pretty much.

Not really. I liked CT enough, but I really had no expectations for CC going in.

What I got was a ton of characters who are insignificant in the plot and useless in battle, a really slow and annoying battle system, an annoying skill equip system, and actually a pretty terrible plot that was summed up by cameo characters purely through text right before the final boss fight.

Not to mention the few things they TRIED to carry over from CT were incredibly half-assed; you could go through the entire game without realizing that there were double- and triple techs. Like I did.

Good music, though.

Terrible game? By no means. 10 out of 10? Hell no.

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GranzonEx
10/01/11 12:50:00 PM
#37:


From: Rad Link 5 | #033
Heartless.


Don't let B/W fool you into thinking otherwise!

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LeonhartFour
10/01/11 12:51:00 PM
#38:


From: Bigwig_rah | #023
I've never understood this complaint. The extra characters don't take anything away from the game, so who cares if you're given the option the use them?


Well, I went into the game with the expectation that they weren't going to be completely and utterly useless as characters because, well, they're not Pokemon.

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thundersheep
10/01/11 12:51:00 PM
#39:


From: BoshStrikesBack | #029
But every Pokemon has just as much personality and relevance as the rest of them,

Ah, right. So clearly, the way to make Chrono Cross better is to just have none of the characters receive any development. Brilliant


Or... just have a reasonable number characters with significant development. Not sure why'd you take a tone like that with such a boneheaded response.

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BoshStrikesBack
10/01/11 12:51:00 PM
#40:


If CC is more of a typical JRPG, then having a bunch of party members would cheapen the core members of the group, definitely.

And don't you feel this is a false choice? Why can't a game have both character development and a large cast? Take the Chrono Trigger hypothetical I posed earlier: would that "cheapen" the original cast?

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Kirby Driver Reborn
10/01/11 12:52:00 PM
#41:


I played this game when it was new. I hated it, almost everything about it. Traded it in pretty quickly after finishing it.

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thundersheep
10/01/11 12:53:00 PM
#42:


From: SlymDayspring | #034
But every Pokemon has just as much personality and relevance as the rest of them, other than a few exceptions like legendaries and gifts.

then how is that different than in CC? everyone has just as little personality, except for a few exceptions. use the important characters and ignore the rest if that is how you want to play. like, most of CC's characters that have no development are completely optional.


If I knew that the vast majority of characters would be irrelevant it would be a completely different story. It's not like you're catching beasts and adding them to your party. There is no way you're going to know who is a major character and who isn't on a first playthrough.

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BoshStrikesBack
10/01/11 12:56:00 PM
#43:


Or... just have a reasonable number characters with significant development.

Which, as I explained earlier, is exactly what Cross has. It compares favorably to the development of its predecessor, at any rate.

Not sure why'd you take a tone like that with such a boneheaded response.

Sometimes I just wonder why you take on this elitist attitude when you struggle at basic reading comprehension. Again, you initially attacked Cross for not having sufficient character development across its entire cast, but when Pokemon was invoked, you hand-waived that example on the basis that "they have similar development/relevance." Which would lead anyone to conclude that you meant "it's better to have no development across the board than scattered development for certain characters."

Though you don't even maintain that Cross has that, which needs explaining. What is it about Crono and Lucca that speaks to you more than Serge and Kid? What does Frog have over Glenn? Aya over Karth?

If I knew that the vast majority of characters would be irrelevant it would be a completely different story. It's not like you're catching beasts and adding them to your party. There is no way you're going to know who is a major character and who isn't on a first playthrough.

This, on the other hand, is actually a fairer complaint. A couple are obvious- Serge, Kid, and a handful of others I won't mention out of spoilers- but the rest require some prior knowledge. Sometimes you can figure it out if you're paying attention, and other times not.

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LeonhartFour
10/01/11 12:57:00 PM
#44:


From: BoshStrikesBack | #043
What is it about Crono and Lucca that speaks to you more than Serge and Kid?


Well, for one, Crono, Lucca, and Serge don't suck.

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BoshStrikesBack
10/01/11 12:58:00 PM
#45:


Well, for one, Crono, Lucca, and Serge don't suck.

A riveting rejoinder. Can't argue against personal preference, but Kid's undeniably got more development than most of the CT cast!

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LeonhartFour
10/01/11 12:59:00 PM
#46:


And yet she still sucks.

That's one of the big advantages CT has over most of CC's cast: Likability. I actually care about CT's characters. I don't give a crap about 95% of CC's cast.

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BoshStrikesBack
10/01/11 1:00:00 PM
#47:


We're trying to be somewhat objective here, Leon. If the question is "What cast of characters tickles your fancy?", then it's going to be completely subjective and not worth debating. If, on the other hand, we go down the "What cast has more development?" path, then at least we're working with a standard.

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thundersheep
10/01/11 1:02:00 PM
#48:


From: BoshStrikesBack | #043
Sometimes I just wonder why you take on this elitist attitude when you struggle at basic reading comprehension. Again, you initially attacked Cross for not having sufficient character development across its entire cast, but when Pokemon was invoked, you hand-waived that example on the basis that "they have similar development/relevance." Which would lead anyone to conclude that you meant "it's better to have no development across the board than scattered development for certain characters."


For me there is basically an expectation that when you get new characters in an RPG that they're going to have interesting personalities and add a lot to the gameplay and the story.


basic reading comprehension



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LeonhartFour
10/01/11 1:03:00 PM
#49:


From: BoshStrikesBack | #047
We're trying to be somewhat objective here, Leon


No, we're not. Let's not try to take some high road to make ourselves look better.

We're debating on why Chrono Cross isn't as liked as Chrono Trigger, and that's going to end up being a subjective answer.

Kid and Harle getting more development than Crono and Lucca doesn't make CC's cast superior.

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Rad Link 5
10/01/11 1:06:00 PM
#50:


Wait, Bosh is serious about the Pokemon example?

Oh my goodness I'm laughing for real right now.

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