Board 8 > Most Powerful Fictional Character 2011: Anti-Spiral vs. NoN Lelouch [MPFC]

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Anti-Spiral

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Anti-Spiral

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Lelouch gets done by speed. Is that the case?

no, different lelouch. this one fights and beats pretty much every other mech in the series, with ease. and that's before his last powerup where he should have access to something that would put him in the hypersonic turf with a geass.

basically, entirely different powerset and abilities from the main timeline's. different timeline, different powers and abilities. for pretty much everybody at that. rolo's time stop wasn't as limited, there's actual precog instead of 'see few seconds in the future', etc.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

Well, all that valiant arguing in the last AS match convinced me that someone a bit stronger with more tools could potentially beat him. I think NoN Lelouch takes this.

From: BlackMetalex | #154
Well, all that valiant arguing in the last AS match convinced me that someone a bit stronger with more tools could potentially beat him. I think NoN Lelouch takes this.

Strength was never a factor in the last match though. It was an ability exclusive to Kurama.

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Anti-Spiral

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Started: July 6, 2005

KanzarisKelshen posted...
From: BlackMetalex | #154
Well, all that valiant arguing in the last AS match convinced me that someone a bit stronger with more tools could potentially beat him. I think NoN Lelouch takes this.
Strength was never a factor in the last match though. It was an ability exclusive to Kurama.

I just mean the idea that you can beat AS by being strong enough to get past the Mugann spam and being able to take advantage of the fact that he fights you on your level, even though AS is actually much stronger than you are. I'm saying Lelouch has a better shot of making it through the initial obstacle course due to better parameters/abilities.

I just mean the idea that you can beat AS by being strong enough to get past the Mugann spam and being able to take advantage of the fact that he fights you on your level, even though AS is actually much stronger than you are. I'm saying Lelouch has a better shot of making it through the initial obstacle course due to better parameters/abilities.


Well think about it...to even get to AS you are basically saying you are like galaxy buster+ Lelouch isn't getting to AS anyway as he would be rofldestroyed by moon sized mugann let alone the freakin faces of despair (plus lelouch can't fly in space. People have been arguing his mech and Eden Vital hax for that the mech would be destroyed in like a couple seconds) plus who is to say Lelouch can even use zero hax since its been talked about that he needs to make contact. How is he making contact on the uber shielded FTL mugann?

also if AS gets annoyed he eventually throws the "fight on your level" thing out the window (in the movie he stayed in Grand Zamboa mode when he was facing mini gunmen)

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"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

I believe Anti-Spiral takes this one.

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Eden Vital seems like a hard counter to Anti-Spiral's biggest trick, locking the opponent away in an alternate reality. I definitely buy Lelouch being able to break free of that -- particularly since Eden Vital is apparently passive and would alert him to the nature of the universe even if he didn't personally realize what happened.

It's the rest of the fight that I'm not entirely sure of.

Questions about Lelouch:
- Is it ever possible to defeat him, by any means?
- Is his regeneration/revival instant, or how long does it take? (Has this ever been shown? He is apparently invincible, after all.)

I will say that the Lelouch arguments have been far better, from the perspective of someone who only watched ~8 eps of TTGL before quitting the show, and never watched any of Code Geass. Anti-Spiral supposedly being on a different level of power is not that convincing if he has a tendency to fight opponents on their level.


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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high

Also, what's a Mugann? Is that a mech?


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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high

the 'mugann spam' is a crap line anyway. fight starts with him vs non lelouch so he's there in the first place. if the dude's there he ain't taking off for no reason and is a bigger dick (gives more despair etc) by actually being there.

the idea still ends up being don't beat him by brute force and... that's pretty much how the entirety of the stranger geass powers worked, especially in NoN. bunches of powers deal with memories (altering, locking, seeing through, making them relive, etc) or certain commands to directly affect them (absolute obedience, love the other person, etc), involve time (stopping time and space, seeing into the future, knowing the future), or have some weird body not needed aspects to 'em. geass powers are extremely varied and the connection's pretty high level if the idea was to kill that series' incarnation of God, in the same series where one of the root powers is described as the power that returns all creation into nothingness and they've a central hub to go to all mutliverses as well. entirely different scale from the main series overall there, and much better at pretty much everything. which is good since there's a nice bag of tricks to work with in there.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

Eden Vital seems like a hard counter to Anti-Spiral's biggest trick, locking the opponent away in an alternate reality. I definitely buy Lelouch being able to break free of that -- particularly since Eden Vital is apparently passive and would alert him to the nature of the universe even if he didn't personally realize what happened.

It's the rest of the fight that I'm not entirely sure of.

Questions about Lelouch:
- Is it ever possible to defeat him, by any means?
- Is his regeneration/revival instant, or how long does it take? (Has this ever been shown? He is apparently invincible, after all.)

I will say that the Lelouch arguments have been far better, from the perspective of someone who only watched ~8 eps of TTGL before quitting the show, and never watched any of Code Geass. Anti-Spiral supposedly being on a different level of power is not that convincing if he has a tendency to fight opponents on their level.



Spiral power is passive as well and that was affected as well if you think about it

as for the questions according to Ganon he is invincible but I never read NoN so who knows

He mentioned something about someone with Geass powers getting his head cut off and it instantly grew back in a few seconds although how it would stand up when the person is turned into paste I don't know (base mugann would turn him into paste with lasers) most of Lelouch's stuff is hypothetical imo.

I am curious if with Eden Vital he can actually go into different universes or just observe / mess with them a bit from there

even then wouldn't going into the AS universe basically mean Lelouch is auto screwed sicne AS controls everything and anything in his dimension.

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"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

Also, what's a Mugann? Is that a mech?

Its AS mechs (no pilots) which he can summon anywhere in the universe even if he is in another dimension / far away. Its basically how he deals with everyone and only bothers with those who come knocking on his doorstep (usually the mugann strat works so it wouldn't be wrong to assume thats what he goes with initially and doesn't fight personally)

yeah and if you beat one mugann AS goes

"Ok here you go"



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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

Spiral power is passive as well and that was affected as well if you think about it

Spiral power is fighting spirit, right? In that case, it seems like it would come and go. It's not something always active. Like I'm sitting here eating crackers and I don't have a whole lot of fighting spirit right now, even though I might at other times. Eden Vital, based on arguments, is different: it's an ever-present connection.


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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high

mugann are basically something in line with zerg and kerrigan, though far weaker for the most part. just minions basically.

but it's pretty much irrelevant to anything there because it's like saying 'in order to get to kefka you need to go up the tower and beat his 4 bosses!' in the series AS is busy playing lockdown on the universe and has checks set for 'em, those weird ship-like minions being the main thing he uses to check 'em after certain conditions are met usually. which ain't really ever an issue since if he's there then hey, he's there. fight starts with him the same way a fight starts with kerrigan. whether she'd use the zerg or not is on her account, but they ain't there to start. same with him. ...'cept he wouldn't use 'em because he's already there and that ain't his style.

aka, it's a crap and nonsensical argument. big surprise.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

Isn't Eden Vital a geass thing though

so if he was in a reality where he never discovered geass wouldn't that just screw him over

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

though far weaker for the most part. just minions basically.



....weak? Moon sized Mugann...planet chucking mugann weak?

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

I'm feeling Lelouch on this one.

Oh. If they're just lackeys, then it wouldn't matter. It's Anti-Spiral vs. Lelouch, not Anti-Spiral and All of His Allies vs. Lelouch.


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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high

Wanglicious posted...
Lelouch gets done by speed. Is that the case?

no, different lelouch. this one fights and beats pretty much every other mech in the series, with ease. and that's before his last powerup where he should have access to something that would put him in the hypersonic turf with a geass.

basically, entirely different powerset and abilities from the main timeline's. different timeline, different powers and abilities. for pretty much everybody at that. rolo's time stop wasn't as limited, there's actual precog instead of 'see few seconds in the future', etc.

Are these mechs even that impressive? I got the impression reading this topic that they were some Gundam-Wing level stuff, but here they're saying USA IN THE REAL WORLD could either stalemate or even beat Britannia, how the mechs get shot down by Japanese tanks etc:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=133683

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"Give him a fair trial. Then shoot him." - Napoleon Bonaparte after the capture of Andreas Hofer

Oh. If they're just lackeys, then it wouldn't matter. It's Anti-Spiral vs. Lelouch, not Anti-Spiral and All of His Allies vs. Lelouch.



Its part of AS abilities. Thats like saying some grand summoner isn't allowed to summon during his match...

also here is some info on the base tier mugann who could probably end Lelouch anyway


http://gurrenlagann.wikia.com/wiki/Mugann

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

Lelouch in an alternate universe without Geass is being warned by his connection with Eden Vital that something is wrong!

Lelouch, having no idea what the warning is/means, simply goes back to his job as the greatest maker of massively oversized pizza's in the world, asuming the strange sensation will go away eventually. (the one episode I see, and that was it >_>)

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if he uses Eden Vital hax to teleport to AS universe then AS just rofldestroys him since he controls everything in that universe. Plus I don't think Lelouch has ever shown that he can travel through space on his own in NoN

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

Its part of AS abilities. Thats like saying some grand summoner isn't allowed to summon during his match...

also here is some info on the base tier mugann who could probably end Lelouch anyway

If he summons them entirely under his own power, then yeah, he would get them. He wouldn't start with any, but he'd be able to summon them mid-match.

also 'small bombs' man


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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high

If he summons them entirely under his own power, then yeah, he would get them. He wouldn't start with any, but he'd be able to summon them mid-match.



Yes it is under his own power and since the summon is instant...

also 'small bombs' man



Yeah yknow those small bombs

one mugann blew up and those "small bombs' wrecked the city

and thats just ONE of the BOTTOM tier mugann.

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

would easily put any of the non generics (see: the entire series goes to this) as better than the ones in Wing. they have a large variation too - the one that leloch can summon is more in line with a super robot in the series, while the one his main rival pilots is a hybrid leaning towards the real side ala cybuster. they consistently improve mechs like every 4 episodes (or i guess chapters here) so yeah.

using gundam references, nothing comes close to 00's 2nd season. but would definitely say they're in line with the 1st season's. and the good ones definitely better than Wing with far more destructive capabilities.


and the US in the real world would murder wing's stuff pretty easily <_<;

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

Plus I don't think Lelouch has ever shown that he can travel through space on his own in NoN

He doesn't need space travel, since he's dimension-hopping. Or am I missing something here?


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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high

and drak, it ain't his style to summon 'em anyway if he's already there. doesn't fit his style. if he's there he'll dick with you himself. pretty much how he rolls.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

^ His quote in the movie contradicts this

he personally states he is "Tired of dealing with spiral beings"

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

and the US in the real world would murder wing's stuff pretty easily <_<;

That's true too.

anime-world militaries are pretty LOLworthy... at least the ones that rely on giant mechs as serious battle units (they're just so inefficient and suboptimal for combat... seriously).

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"Give him a fair trial. Then shoot him." - Napoleon Bonaparte after the capture of Andreas Hofer

He's only done the fighting on a personal level like... Once in his entire existence, maybe a second time back when he was taking over. He's done the suppression thing countless times based on how many attempts failed at the spiral death machine. He'd probably just labyrinth him and bugger off, assuming he'd won. If that didn't work, he'd start sending in the mugann.

Well, that's my opinion at any rate.

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Im still curious how eden works

does Lelouch like..teleport there whenever he wants or what?

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

He doesn't need space travel, since he's dimension-hopping. Or am I missing something here?



Dimension hop to the dimension where AS controls everything...Lelouch is screwed.

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

Though actually, I wouldn't see Anti-Spiral starting in his dimension. Standard rule is that fights occur on neutral terrain, not in one character's stronghold. Unless you're suggesting that Anti-Spiral sees Lelouch and then decides to flee to the relative safety of his own dimension?


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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high

or if Eden is just a hub zone that only people who are "wired" to it can go and they need some free time to go / teleport there

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

I see him labyrinthing and then going back to his dimension to do whatever it is he does personally.

--
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Though actually, I wouldn't see Anti-Spiral starting in his dimension. Standard rule is that fights occur on neutral terrain, not in one character's stronghold. Unless you're suggesting that Anti-Spiral sees Lelouch and then decides to flee to the relative safety of his own dimension?



If he is starting in the same area as lelouch (which he would due to rules) he would probably go "Your screwed kid" as he was saying this he teleports out to his dimension and mugann proceed to wreck.

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

nah, if he wanted to use any of his minions it woulda been easier to just simply summon one in the ship instead of taunting everyone. he doesn't confront them very often personally, but when he does it's really just him every time. which makes sense since you aren't nearly as much of a dick and can make someone feel despair if you're having others do your dirty work for you like that.

...and of course he's starting there in a neutral terrain of the fight. it's not like he exists only in one spot like smith or something. >_>; and the day he just randomly flees is the day he stopped being himself.

but yeah, to give an idea on the code geass mechs... they had a pretty sizable upgrade into the 2nd season there, including a nuke gun. not an exaggeration or phrase there, it actually was a modified nuclear warhead. >_>; and the 2nd season ended with pretty much 'i have a giant fortress of doom that can shoot this anywhere on the planet i want.' so yeah, geass focused more on destruction - either expansive like that or more personal like a massive blast of radiation to destroy a mech from a hand - than wing did. 00, not including trans am, is a much more fitting spot for 'em by the end.

NoN is definitely based more on the 2nd season. so yeah, they aren't crappy mechs at all.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

nah, if he wanted to use any of his minions it woulda been easier to just simply summon one in the ship instead of taunting everyone.

He couldn't

it was basically the pilots own universe where they were god mode (similar to how AS is god mode in his dimension)

also he is not fleeing as he is "not bothering personally"

would you say someone is fleeing for leaving / not personally stomping someone far weaker than them?

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

But yeah, I think that Anti-Spiral's arrogance is probably going to be the end of him here, because of his tendency to match the opponent to fight on an equal playing field. If he took the form of a galaxy-sized mech he would win this. All personality arguments indicate that he won't. Lelouch beats him in a straight fight due to Anti-Spiral's self-imposed constraints, and he also has a direct counter to Anti-Spiral's trump card, the alternate dimension prison.

Arguments like "AS just rofldestroys him" don't really help either.

Lelouch


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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high

would you say someone is fleeing for leaving / not personally stomping someone far weaker than them?

Let's say that I'm in a fighting tournament. I walk out into the arena and my opponent is an ordinary ant. I'd be like "uhh...why am I fighting an ant?" but I'd still make sure to stomp it before leaving the arena.


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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high

I don't think I have gotten an answer to the Eden vital thing

also if you insist on the "constraints" approach AS puts himself at "slightly more powerful than you no matter what" level so how would Lelouch take him in a straight up fight in AS is still stronger than him and again his constraitns rule goes out the window when he gets annoyed.

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

Anti-Spiral because Lelouch isn't hot-blooded enough to beat him.

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[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

Let's say that I'm in a fighting tournament. I walk out into the arena and my opponent is an ordinary ant. I'd be like "uhh...why am I fighting an ant?" but I'd still make sure to stomp it before leaving the arena.



(points to Piccolo in the DBZ movie) he was in a tournament quarterfinals fighting krillin and he went "This is a freaking waste of my time. Call me when someone tough shows up and leaves the arena. Did he flee? (note he didn't even attack.)

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

Lelouch

and quite frankly, this isn't even close. How does this topic have so many posts?

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Now with more bold! Less Italics due to bold

bump for eden info.

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama

Anti spiral

from the arguments

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